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Post by johneppstein on May 24, 2021 13:14:36 GMT -6
I'll simply state that I've never had good results ITB only and for the life of me I can't understand why, how could I possibly mess up with an LA-2A plugin? Especially considering there ain't much to them and I use one OTB without issue. The same goes for EQ's etc., if you use them OTB why should it be different vice versa? Simple. LA2 plugins suck. Generally speaking, compression is the most difficult process to "model" well, and most of the real pros I listen to say that nobody has ever done a proper job.
If there's ONE PLACE you're gonna use hardware, compression is it.
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Post by johneppstein on May 24, 2021 13:18:44 GMT -6
Heheh. Man this is just blatant genre bias on my part but I don't know how ya'll can tell what the hell is going on with those kind of tracks. It all sounds like a Line 6 POD and Steven Slate Drums V1 with the dry/sample mix knob set to 500% to me.  <acknowledges metalheads are coming for him, put's flamesuit on> Why I pretty much stopped doing metal oh, about 15 or 20 years ago now..... Bad sound and boring material. And the egos.... usually from those least deserving... |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on May 24, 2021 13:24:56 GMT -6
I'm with you here. And this is no knock against the genre. Plenty of people listen to the music I like and say "couldn't they find someone who has at least had a guitar lesson?" and they're not totally wrong. Haha. Hey man, it's SUPPOSED to sound like that. And I guess for the modern metal, it's supposed to sound like that? , imagine working with that for a decade and being expected to make it sound good? No wonder I'm so analytical to the point of slightly mad. Don't get me wrong the amount of sonic space you have in metal is severely limited by the instruments themselves and it does tend to have a "sound to it" because you're essentially squishing everything into a square wave so it doesn't fall apart in a second. When dealing with seven string guitars / 5 string basses and a never ending slurry of bass building from double kicks it's difficult at best, if you just rip it out then the song has no punch. Also heavily distorted guitars are ugly sounding instruments at the best of times, trying to get them to compliment a song ain't easy. It's a very difficult genre to work with because everything just fights with everything. On the flip side... I don't see a lot of metal shows but I remember seeing Clutch (that's metal, right?) some years back in Austin and it was like "holy crap, this is awesome." Maybe it's just a difficult genre to capture on record for the reasons you just mentioned. |
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Post by schmalzy on May 24, 2021 13:25:59 GMT -6
Are there any modern records you like? LOTS of people are still using hardware. I'm curious if it's the era of sounds/songs your like or if it is the sonics of the hardware. Spot the ITB mixes? LOG - I know what they use so it’s cheating (OTB) BMTH - I’ve actually met BMTH, they record in Steel City Sheffield and they are without a doubt OTB. WAGE WAR - I’m guessing periphery style ITB Axe FX stuff. While She Sleeps - I mean it’s powerful but it does have that closed in sound, it’s either ITB or a not so great OTB mix. I didn't look it up so go for it  .. Re-reading that message from me sounds a little stand-off-ish. Definitely wasn't intended! Sorry about that! I kind of thought that's where this would go. A LOT of people just prefer the older stuff. Are our preferences identifying that as something we like, do we like it because it's what we've heard the most, or is it fairly objectively better? It's an interesting thought experiment for me. I didn't hear any of these bands until the last couple years so I don't have any attachment to the older stuff. My favorite mix out of all of it is that WSS track. It's just the most exciting and that's what I want emotionally from this genre. The low end from that Wage War track is cool. The LOG track is a GREAT song. That BMTH track is my least favorite of them. I'm pretty sure Machine said that LOG track was ITB. Kicks are entirely triggered. BMTH was definitely OTB. Fredrick Nordstrom at Studio Fredman back whenever they did it. Wage War was ITB mix with analog 2-bus. Knowing who mixed it suggests it was a blend of Kemper and real guitar amps. That While She Sleeps track is mixed by Carl Bown (a Colin Richardson engineer and partner). I don't know for sure that it's OTB but as far as I can tell everything he's been doing is hybrid or OTB for everything. I saw an educational thing he did and he was translating all of his original hardware moves to plugins. It's super interesting to see what everyone's identifying as the telltale signs of the different methods! |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 13:45:29 GMT -6
Just for a bit of grounding I always refer to this (ITB) track on occasion which I did as a drunken challenge only (over a decade ago), DISCLAIMER (PLEASE READ): I did this for less than £200.00 / $280.00, we're not talking just for a pre-amp here but everything, effects, instruments, VSTI's, AD/DA, mic's, pre-amps, comps etc. etc. It isn't representative of my works today or the works I did at the time, it was for fun only. The distortion pedal cost about $10.00 as you can probably tell.
Yes, I can't sing and no I'm not a great guitarist but I've heard worse with far fancier equipment.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/user-684241592/challengetest
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 14:03:35 GMT -6
Heheh. Man this is just blatant genre bias on my part but I don't know how ya'll can tell what the hell is going on with those kind of tracks. It all sounds like a Line 6 POD and Steven Slate Drums V1 with the dry/sample mix knob set to 500% to me. <acknowledges metalheads are coming for him, put's flamesuit on> Yes modern metal drove off a cliff in terms of music and production. Give me Mercyful Fate records that are so bright they sound like someone accidentally forgot to set the pre-emphasis tag on the cd. Give me Beherit studio rehearsals where I don’t know whats going on half the time but when it rips, it rips: |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 14:11:33 GMT -6
Brian Lucey should stop using ersatz emulation plugins and learn how to operate the best plugs. Presswerk killed the desires I had for VCA compressors and Molot GE almost everything else. The Adapt knob in Presswerk could not exist in hardware. Molot GE is even better. I would never take a DBX or cheaped out 1176 clone over it. No frickin way. Kotelnikov could not either. That insane clean squish could not be done.
Another great one is Unisum. Arousor and the Distressor emulations suck by comparison. Unisum’s Hygge gets a similar cool plastic distortion down if you set it right while not leaving icepicks behind from an aliased sidechain or sounding like a clipper. Unisum is just a million times harder to operate than a hardware distressor and it can be way cleaner.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 14:29:30 GMT -6
LOG - I know what they use so it’s cheating (OTB) BMTH - I’ve actually met BMTH, they record in Steel City Sheffield and they are without a doubt OTB. WAGE WAR - I’m guessing periphery style ITB Axe FX stuff. While She Sleeps - I mean it’s powerful but it does have that closed in sound, it’s either ITB or a not so great OTB mix. I didn't look it up so go for it .. Re-reading that message from me sounds a little stand-off-ish. Definitely wasn't intended! Sorry about that! I kind of thought that's where this would go. A LOT of people just prefer the older stuff. Are our preferences identifying that as something we like, do we like it because it's what we've heard the most, or is it fairly objectively better? It's an interesting thought experiment for me. I didn't hear any of these bands until the last couple years so I don't have any attachment to the older stuff. My favorite mix out of all of it is that WSS track. It's just the most exciting and that's what I want emotionally from this genre. The low end from that Wage War track is cool. The LOG track is a GREAT song. That BMTH track is my least favorite of them. I'm pretty sure Machine said that LOG track was ITB. Kicks are entirely triggered. BMTH was definitely OTB. Fredrick Nordstrom at Studio Fredman back whenever they did it. Wage War was ITB mix with analog 2-bus. Knowing who mixed it suggests it was a blend of Kemper and real guitar amps. That While She Sleeps track is mixed by Carl Bown (a Colin Richardson engineer and partner). I don't know for sure that it's OTB but as far as I can tell everything he's been doing is hybrid or OTB for everything. I saw an educational thing he did and he was translating all of his original hardware moves to plugins. It's super interesting to see what everyone's identifying as the telltale signs of the different methods! I'm not saying necessarily that the "closed in sound" is bad it's just not my preference, after all a direct LCR is a very powerful sound and in the right instance it can really hit home. As for LOG, which metal band doesn't trigger their kicks? Honestly pretty much every band I've come across or worked with does, I mean OTB as in recording chain not instruments. I know they've generally worked with major studio's though which was all OTB.. If you like WW, you'll probably like Periphery.. They are ITB / Axe FX / Superior drummer and it's not my cup of tea production wise but the songs are pretty cool TBH.. |
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Post by schmalzy on May 24, 2021 15:10:09 GMT -6
Re-reading that message from me sounds a little stand-off-ish. Definitely wasn't intended! Sorry about that! I kind of thought that's where this would go. A LOT of people just prefer the older stuff. Are our preferences identifying that as something we like, do we like it because it's what we've heard the most, or is it fairly objectively better? It's an interesting thought experiment for me. I didn't hear any of these bands until the last couple years so I don't have any attachment to the older stuff. My favorite mix out of all of it is that WSS track. It's just the most exciting and that's what I want emotionally from this genre. The low end from that Wage War track is cool. The LOG track is a GREAT song. That BMTH track is my least favorite of them. I'm pretty sure Machine said that LOG track was ITB. Kicks are entirely triggered. BMTH was definitely OTB. Fredrick Nordstrom at Studio Fredman back whenever they did it. Wage War was ITB mix with analog 2-bus. Knowing who mixed it suggests it was a blend of Kemper and real guitar amps. That While She Sleeps track is mixed by Carl Bown (a Colin Richardson engineer and partner). I don't know for sure that it's OTB but as far as I can tell everything he's been doing is hybrid or OTB for everything. I saw an educational thing he did and he was translating all of his original hardware moves to plugins. It's super interesting to see what everyone's identifying as the telltale signs of the different methods! I'm not saying necessarily that the "closed in sound" is bad it's just not my preference, after all a direct LCR is a very powerful sound and in the right instance it can really hit home. As for LOG, which metal band doesn't trigger their kicks? Honestly pretty much every band I've come across or worked with does, I mean OTB as in recording chain not instruments. I know they've generally worked with major studio's though which was all OTB.. If you like WW, you'll probably like Periphery.. They are ITB / Axe FX / Superior drummer and it's not my cup of tea production wise but the songs are pretty cool TBH.. I'm aware of Periphery. That's a great recommendation if I weren't, though! I'm not really a fan of Wage War either. I just know a lot of people say they like the sound of that record. The new Holding Absence (mixed by the same guy who mixed Periphery before Nolly started doing it all) sounds pretty bonkers but the SONGS are really great. It might be worth checking out. That kick trigger thing was more of a noted thing more than an accusation. It sounds he didn't even play a kick in the room and it was programmed later. A thing I hear a lot from guys in that era. A lot of the earlier Periphery stuff was Nolly's modded 5150 into a Mesa oversized cab. Drums are played live, edited, sample reinforced. Nolly mixes on headphones on a laptop and that's bonkers to me! Machine made it sound a lot like he mixed that LOG record entirely ITB. |
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Post by gouge on May 24, 2021 15:25:27 GMT -6
One of the theories i harbour with digital v analogue is that digital plugs seem to fit digital instruments better than analogue instruments.
Im always cautious when i hear plug demos across digital instruments.
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Post by drbill on May 24, 2021 15:42:09 GMT -6
Arousor and the Distressor emulations suck by comparison. That doesn't surprise me. A lot of people think the HARDWARE Distressor sucks. LOL. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 16:50:38 GMT -6
I'm not saying necessarily that the "closed in sound" is bad it's just not my preference, after all a direct LCR is a very powerful sound and in the right instance it can really hit home. As for LOG, which metal band doesn't trigger their kicks? Honestly pretty much every band I've come across or worked with does, I mean OTB as in recording chain not instruments. I know they've generally worked with major studio's though which was all OTB.. If you like WW, you'll probably like Periphery.. They are ITB / Axe FX / Superior drummer and it's not my cup of tea production wise but the songs are pretty cool TBH.. Machine made it sound a lot like he mixed that LOG record entirely ITB. Outside this retort and subject, I think a lot of this is definitive of one's definition of "ITB".. I know some who proclaim they're "ITB" to have $100K's worth of hardware in front of the ADC and they touch up a few things in their DAW and pronounce it to be in the box. I however do not consider this ITB, if you're printing anything before recording it's really a hybrid solution. So it's Mic / Interface / DAW / plugs, that's a completely ITB setup in my definition. I will accept unison and the Apollo platform console because they are still plugins. Any sniff of HW before the interface, nah.. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 24, 2021 17:33:22 GMT -6
Machine made it sound a lot like he mixed that LOG record entirely ITB. Outside this retort and subject, I think a lot of this is definitive of one's definition of "ITB".. I know some who proclaim they're "ITB" to have $100K's worth of hardware in front of the ADC and they touch up a few things in their DAW and pronounce it to be in the box. I however do not consider this ITB, if you're printing anything before recording it's really a hybrid solution. So it's Mic / Interface / DAW / plugs, that's a completely ITB setup in my definition. I will accept unison and the Apollo platform console because they are still plugins. Any sniff of HW before the interface, nah.. Meh, that's basically saying the only ITB stuff is the lowest budget stuff out there. I disagree with that. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2021 18:22:20 GMT -6
Outside this retort and subject, I think a lot of this is definitive of one's definition of "ITB".. I know some who proclaim they're "ITB" to have $100K's worth of hardware in front of the ADC and they touch up a few things in their DAW and pronounce it to be in the box. I however do not consider this ITB, if you're printing anything before recording it's really a hybrid solution. So it's Mic / Interface / DAW / plugs, that's a completely ITB setup in my definition. I will accept unison and the Apollo platform console because they are still plugins. Any sniff of HW before the interface, nah.. Meh, that's basically saying the only ITB stuff is the lowest budget stuff out there. I disagree with that. I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with TBH but several channels of Mu's / Opto's / FET comp's etc. in front of your ADC is definitely not ITB (because there's plugs for that).. Yes, I know that there has to be some analog front end or the physics of recording somewhat stop (obviously). Anyway, I guess there is an argument for pre-amps, some do the harmonic saturation thing well and due to THD specs interfaces generally go for clean over interesting. Although some have a bit of character like Metric Halo, you'd be hard pressed to replace their pre's without spending some serious cash IMO. Also when has the likes of Metric Halo (as an example yet again) been budget friendly?.. Also it's not like the cost of retiring / upgrading plugins doesn't come at a cost. |
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Post by drbill on May 24, 2021 19:50:12 GMT -6
I'm 100% INTO plugins when I need them. There are certain things they do very well. For me though, when there's a hardware comp or EQ or saturation piece, the hardware wins 97 out of 100 times. There are 3 times though.....
A few things that Hardware do for me that I've never found a plugin that can pull it off as well.
- Depth and Width of field. Not M-S trickery - plugins do that well. Not reverb. Both plugins and hardware do that well too. I'm talking about dropping a piece of gear on a mix and having things get wider and deeper in a super smooth organic way. Sure, I can TRY to pull that off with verb or MS stuff. But dropping a pair of ZODS on the mix buss does it better, and instantly, and I'm grinning.
- Bottom end. Sure plugins can add bottom. Some do it really great like the SIEQ. Or maybe the Ruletec. But getting the bottom SOLID, BIG, and TIGHT........ this is the realm of big boy hardware. I think it's mostly in the custom transformers and power supplies, but there are analog things that can pull it off that don't have transformers, so...... ?? Big and TIGHT bottom end! The nemesis of all mix engineers. Well...most. It's one of the hardest things to pull off really well. Even with hardware. I'm beta testing some things right now that have REALLY demonstrated what analog done well, with power supplies bolstering stiff rails and properly chosen components can do. And they can do amazing things that you have always been dreaming about, but could never quiiiiieeeeteeee get to.
- Saturation in subtleties. Hardware delivers - almost instantly. Sat Plugins are tweaky, cantankerous, and they need to be constantly ***** slapped, and STILL they never sit quite right. Muddy, or fizzy. Ugly or not enough. To get the subtleties and nuance with hardware does take a lot of $$ though.
- Warmth. Nothing warms up the studio in the winter like a raft of hardware cranking away!!! Oh yeah, and they do the same for the mixes. I used to need a console to get warmth. Now I can do it better with my hybrid approach. The "super cool warm" mixes I did ITB a decade plus ago with VCC. Ugh.... embarrassingly ugly and dull now.
- Getting pokey stuff to "sit" well in the mix. It's pretty easy with a couple of hardware comps to get things to behave well and sit properly in the mix. With comp plugs I'm always needing to do a lot of automation, or they get real flat sounding by the time they are "controlled".
There's more, that those come to mind right now....
BTW - one last thing. Someone mentioned this earlier. Stacking a bunch of plugins is not generally a net gain for me. Deadens things, and when I pull them off, I tend to like it better. Stacking a bunch of hardware usually makes me smile big....
Al that said, I certainly use plugins. Quite a bit. But only where they shine.
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Post by drbill on May 24, 2021 19:52:24 GMT -6
but several channels of Mu's / Opto's / FET comp's etc. in front of your ADC is definitely not ITB (because there's plugs for that).. Yes, I know that there has to be some analog front end or the physics of recording somewhat stop (obviously).. For me, a killer analog front end is a given. It's a must. After that, you still need to deal with the back end, and for me, as mentioned above, hardware is not a luxury - it's a necessity. Cheers, |
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Post by thehightenor on May 25, 2021 2:58:45 GMT -6
LOL .... sounds like Hitchhikers Guide "the meaning of life is 42"
I mean 93% - it's just a silly arbitrary number - it has no actual meaning in terms of listening to something.
For some it might be 99% - other 50% - then 4 x plugins would be 200% worse! - Mmmh - I'm not sure the maths quite correlates like that.
The issue I have with digital (still after all these years) is it sounds flat, 2D - boring.
I use as little digital as I can afford not to use.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2021 7:23:17 GMT -6
64-bit float Digital can be cleaner than any almost any analog and almost as vibey. There’s some stuff digital can’t do and some stuff analog can’t do. You just can’t push plugs in the same way as analog gear. If you overdrive something into the red with inadequate anti aliasing filters or use a component modeled compressor on too fast attack and release, you get what you deserve for not listening super critically. Many plugins have small sweet spot that must be learned. When pushed, they alias and are no longer sweet. Or there’s a sweetspot that sounds great with a little aliasing and an eq before or after but take it out of the sweet spot and you’re looking for trouble.
And then we have Tokyo Dawn...
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Post by Guitar on May 25, 2021 8:10:53 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts!
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Post by lando on May 25, 2021 8:30:01 GMT -6
Isn't it a bit silly to be precise in that way? 93%....how does he calculate that? Why not 97% or 78%? I absolutely believe that HW matters to him and that the gear he uses sounds better to him than the SW alternatives. Maybe it's faster as well? Maybe it's more fun to use? But putting a percentage on the quality change and using math to "prove" the difference makes no sense to me since it's super subjective and impossible to calculate.
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Post by mike on May 25, 2021 9:07:31 GMT -6
A few things that Hardware do for me that I've never found a plugin that can pull it off as well. - Depth and Width of field. Not M-S trickery - plugins do that well. Not reverb. Both plugins and hardware do that well too. I'm talking about dropping a piece of gear on a mix and having things get wider and deeper in a super smooth organic way. Sure, I can TRY to pull that off with verb or MS stuff. But dropping a pair of ZODS on the mix buss does it better, and instantly, and I'm grinning. Can you tell me more about putting a pair of Zods on the mix buss. How much the depth and width of field improvement is, whether it's significant or subtle?
...and in general how the Zod sonics compare to the pre/transformer flavors of Neve/API type boxes in the same application ?
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Post by jcoutu1 on May 25, 2021 9:11:13 GMT -6
Isn't it a bit silly to be precise in that way? 93%....how does he calculate that? Why not 97% or 78%? I absolutely believe that HW matters to him and that the gear he uses sounds better to him than the SW alternatives. Maybe it's faster as well? Maybe it's more fun to use? But putting a percentage on the quality change and using math to "prove" the difference makes no sense to me since it's super subjective and impossible to calculate. Maybe he is justifying higher prices by telling people that his hardware is that much better than software alternatives. |
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Post by drbill on May 25, 2021 9:34:35 GMT -6
A few things that Hardware do for me that I've never found a plugin that can pull it off as well. - Depth and Width of field. Not M-S trickery - plugins do that well. Not reverb. Both plugins and hardware do that well too. I'm talking about dropping a piece of gear on a mix and having things get wider and deeper in a super smooth organic way. Sure, I can TRY to pull that off with verb or MS stuff. But dropping a pair of ZODS on the mix buss does it better, and instantly, and I'm grinning. Can you tell me more about putting a pair of Zods on the mix buss. How much the depth and width of field improvement is, whether it's significant or subtle?
...and in general how the Zod sonics compare to the pre/transformer flavors of Neve/API type boxes in the same application ?
It's subtle, but it's beautiful for me, and it's something I've never been able to approach ITB. Some might call it dramatic. It's all in how you listen and describe things. It's different than the solid state stuff. I'd say it's akin to what the silver bullet does in the api / Neve side of things, but in a tube-ish way. |
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Post by rowmat on May 25, 2021 12:46:44 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts! ‘Expert’ Village always seemed to produce articles by amateurs. Now if you want some real advice on how to start a recording studio this is IT! |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2021 13:35:29 GMT -6
Just an attempt at some light humor: Let's ask the experts! That was awesome |
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