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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 7, 2021 11:58:05 GMT -6
Ok, I did a pretty dumb thing. While tracking drums through this UA 4-710 I'm testing out, I misunderstood the polarity switch. I thought "out" meant that the switch was disengaged... in fact "out" means reversed polarity. Having read the manual first (as always) I can't believe I missed this. But anyway...
So here's the deal. Below is a list of what was recorded, how, when and where. My questions are...
1) Should I just flip the switch in my DAW and correct the polarity where needed
2) If I do so should I switch back to normal on 4-710?
3) If I don't flip in DAW should I not flip on 4-710?
- Four drum mics all into 4-710. Two overheads in mid-side (m160 hypercardiod, r10 fig 8). Close miked kick (m88) and snare (57). All recorded with polarity flipped.
- Scratch tracks played in a different room with normal polarity. No keepers anyway and no bleed. Just being thorough by listing this.
- Overdubbed bass part run direct into 4-710. Flipped (of course). Sent the send direct into my Apollo and I'm assuming the send signal was flipped as well since send is after pre-amp on this unit.
- Overdubbed guitar part run direct into 4-710... flipped. (By the way, this sounded super cool with drive all the way up. Revolution style.)
- Trumpets, accordion, and euphonium one at a time through 4-710... flipped. Two mics on each placed right on top of each other... TLM 102 and m160. They sound in phase on their own.
- Vocals recorded with one mic through 4-710... flipped.
- Acoustic guitar parts recorded into Apollo... NOT flipped. Only one mic, 57 or m160.
Not too proud to say I need help. Or am I ok just flipping back in DAW and moving on...
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Post by Ward on Apr 7, 2021 12:07:02 GMT -6
I would flip everything to in-phase and just carry on.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 7, 2021 12:07:30 GMT -6
just listen in your daw, flip the polarity as a group as see which sound better. Unless some of the mikes are also out of phase you should be fine, but if you expand the wav files and stretch them and check the down best it should be obvious if mikes are in phase?
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 7, 2021 12:45:16 GMT -6
Never had phase issues with any of these mics or cables before. And frankly nothing sounded "weird" or off. I haven't had a chance to get to the tracks today but I was reading through the routing schema on the 4-710 this morning when I was looking for ways to use it for parallel compression and I realized my mistake and panicked.
Thanks for the replies!
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 7, 2021 12:47:36 GMT -6
I understand but actually a lot of mikes get miswired:)
No harm checking, takes a minute!
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 7, 2021 12:49:04 GMT -6
You're way over thinking it, but right to be concerned  Really, you always need to check polarity with drums, regardless of what the phase switch was set to. I'd take a look at the wave forms before anything, and see what (if anything) is out of phase. I'm talking individual drum tracks being out of phase with each other (OH vs Snare, Snare top vs Snare bottom etc). Don't take anything for granted. It never ceases to amaze me how there's always one or two pesky tracks that are out of phase and sneak through when they shouldn't be. Sometimes its a mic cable wired backward, sometimes its a piece of gear that is flipping the phase when it shouldn't, sometimes its accidentally having the phase button pressed when you didn't mean to. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 7, 2021 13:02:06 GMT -6
You're way over thinking it, but right to be concerned Yes. These are the words I wanted to hear! Checking wave forms, flipping in DAW, flipping back in 4-710, and moving on. No worse for the wear but a bit annoyed with UA's inability to make sensible looking icons. |
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Post by notneeson on Apr 7, 2021 13:04:01 GMT -6
You're way over thinking it, but right to be concerned Yes. These are the words I wanted to hear! Checking wave forms, flipping in DAW, flipping back in 4-710, and moving on. No worse for the wear but a bit annoyed with UA's inability to make sensible looking icons. I really like to check in one speaker mono, FWIW. |
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Post by drumsound on Apr 7, 2021 14:50:53 GMT -6
I would flip everything to POSITIVE POLARITY and just carry on. fyp/yw Never had phase issues with any of these mics or cables before. And frankly nothing sounded "weird" or off. I haven't had a chance to get to the tracks today but I was reading through the routing schema on the 4-710 this morning when I was looking for ways to use it for parallel compression and I realized my mistake and panicked. Thanks for the replies! Phase issues are actually acoustic phenomena that we sometimes use electricity (polarity reversal) to correct. Mics can't 'have phase issues.' They can be wired differently than expected, but that won't make the sound like the have phase issues. Yes. These are the words I wanted to hear! Checking wave forms, flipping in DAW, flipping back in 4-710, and moving on. No worse for the wear but a bit annoyed with UA's inability to make sensible looking icons. I really like to check in one speaker mono, FWIW. One speaker mono makes thing really easy to hear if they are wonky. |
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 7, 2021 17:26:29 GMT -6
Got it. Yeah I mean issues in terms of a wired mic or a cable with unexpected polarity.
I mix check in mono regularly and didn’t hear anything odd. Probably going to just flip back for piece of mind and so I don’t forget later.
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Post by askomiko on Apr 8, 2021 3:44:06 GMT -6
Funny thing, all my mics except EV re20 are the same with their polarity. So, I've assumed there is a standard and consensus on how things are supposed to be. But a few years ago, we made a huge giant bigass mic test with maybe 50-60 mics, and to my big surprise, a significant portion of the mics were reverse polarity. I don't remember exactly anymore but it might have been close to 50/50%. So, even that can go wrong very easily.  |
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Post by drumsound on Apr 8, 2021 10:22:32 GMT -6
Funny thing, all my mics except EV re20 are the same with their polarity. So, I've assumed there is a standard and consensus on how things are supposed to be. But a few years ago, we made a huge giant bigass mic test with maybe 50-60 mics, and to my big surprise, a significant portion of the mics were reverse polarity. I don't remember exactly anymore but it might have been close to 50/50%. So, even that can go wrong very easily. It seems like the pin 2 or pin 3 hot is a little, um, random, especially on older things. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 8, 2021 10:49:55 GMT -6
The space time Continuum has been broken.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 8, 2021 15:22:11 GMT -6
Funny thing, all my mics except EV re20 are the same with their polarity. So, I've assumed there is a standard and consensus on how things are supposed to be. But a few years ago, we made a huge giant bigass mic test with maybe 50-60 mics, and to my big surprise, a significant portion of the mics were reverse polarity. I don't remember exactly anymore but it might have been close to 50/50%. So, even that can go wrong very easily. Curse you for posting this! Let the night sweats resume... |
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Post by Guitar on Apr 8, 2021 15:26:06 GMT -6
Polarity flip is non-destructive so you can do it 1,000 times until you're happy, no worries.
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Post by gravesnumber9 on Apr 8, 2021 15:31:09 GMT -6
Polarity flip is non-destructive so you can do it 1,000 times until you're happy, no worries. To me phase issues are like getting an eye exam. I know it when I DO hear it but I'm never sure I'm NOT hearing it if that makes sense. "One? Or... two" "Umm, two? Can I see one again?" "Ok, one or two." "One, I'm going with one." "Great... three or four?" "Wait what happened to one??? Three I guess. Wait, no. They're all blurry. I don't even care, I'll just be blind." |
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Post by Guitar on Apr 8, 2021 15:35:07 GMT -6
Polarity flip is non-destructive so you can do it 1,000 times until you're happy, no worries. To me phase issues are like getting an eye exam. I know it when I DO hear it but I'm never sure I'm NOT hearing it if that makes sense. "One? Or... two" "Umm, two? Can I see one again?" "Ok, one or two." "One, I'm going with one." "Great... three or four?" "Wait what happened to one??? Three I guess. Wait, no. They're all blurry. I don't even care, I'll just be blind." Well the nice thing about polarity in audio is there are only two possible settings. So that limits the confusion a little bit, I would hope. |
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Post by ab101 on Apr 8, 2021 15:51:52 GMT -6
The space time Continuum has been broken. it is our job to fix it (with a special spiritual Connection imho). |
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Post by ab101 on Apr 8, 2021 15:54:30 GMT -6
I like Little Labs unit because of its sweep capability. (Also available as a UAD plugin.)
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Post by drumsound on Apr 8, 2021 17:29:59 GMT -6
Polarity flip is non-destructive so you can do it 1,000 times until you're happy, no worries. This is GOLD! |
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Post by gwlee7 on Apr 8, 2021 17:49:06 GMT -6
Polarity flip is non-destructive so you can do it 1,000 times until you're happy, no worries. I suggest stopping before you need glasses though. Just to be safe. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 8, 2021 19:05:21 GMT -6
I like to check every new cable or piece of gear I get to make sure the polarity is all pin 2 hot. Just takes the guessing out of the equation later on down the line.
If I’m in a room I haven’t used before, I’ll get there early so I have time to beep all the cables I plan on using, and also to check all the outboard so I don’t have to deal with any surprises.
Outboard is pretty easy to check If you’re in a room with a console. Patch out of the console’s signal generator, and go into a mult. Then out of the mult one goes right into channel line input fader at 0. The other out of the mult goes into a piece of outboard and then back onto another channel on the desk. Bring up the fader on the outboard channel. If the tones add, you’re good. If they subtract, either the outboard is pin 3 hot, or the studio wiring is messed up. You’d be surprised at how many studios have things wired up incorrectly.
I usually put a piece of desk tape on any incorrectly wired outboard and use the polarity flip patch points in the bay to correct it on the way in.
If you are using something like an old RCA ribbon or the like that is wired pin 3 hot, it’s easy to make up some little jumper xlr cables that are a polarity flip if there isn’t one available in the patch bay.
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Post by kcatthedog on Apr 9, 2021 10:20:14 GMT -6
If you just test your gear once and correct snd then as said above check every new piece: you’re good, at least in your space.
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Post by tasteliketape on Apr 9, 2021 10:33:17 GMT -6
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Really, you always need to check polarity with drums, regardless of what the phase switch was set to. I'd take a look at the wave forms before anything, and see what (if anything) is out of phase. I'm talking individual drum tracks being out of phase with each other (OH vs Snare, Snare top vs Snare bottom etc). Don't take anything for granted. It never ceases to amaze me how there's always one or two pesky tracks that are out of phase and sneak through when they shouldn't be. Sometimes its a mic cable wired backward, sometimes its a piece of gear that is flipping the phase when it shouldn't, sometimes its accidentally having the phase button pressed when you didn't mean to. 
