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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 6, 2021 10:58:21 GMT -6
Not that I could get close money wise - but why not just buy an Elctro 6 D and be done with it?
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 6, 2021 11:10:33 GMT -6
I have a Nord 4D, its great. But its strength is really as a live instrument. Don't get me wrong, I can get some great tones out of it, but it doesn't necessarily sound better than a good VI...not by default anyway.
I do really like the workflow of just recording what you're playing, and being done with it...no messing with midi and VI's and all the endless tweaking that comes with having infinite options.
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Post by mhbunch on Apr 6, 2021 11:25:07 GMT -6
Although Nords are great for live, I’ve never been happy recording them in the studio.
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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 6, 2021 11:33:05 GMT -6
Although Nords are great for live, I’ve never been happy recording them in the studio. There IS the chance I’d do this and still be lured by the mistress of fomo
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 6, 2021 11:40:51 GMT -6
I have an Electro 5HP, and I do like it, but as others have said, it's no competition for a good VI. The places where I've gotten closest are probably Rhodes (if taking it through other choice outboard on the way into my audio interface) or some kind of pad or background synthy-type sound. For piano, it's not even close to a good VI. For organ it's not close, either. IMO.
But it's fantastic live.
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 6, 2021 12:40:59 GMT -6
I agree. We use it live, but it doesn’t hold a candle to a real Hammond in the studio.
One thing that works really well is Nord’s electric pianos into a Fender Twin Reverb. That really sounds nice, as good as the real thing!
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 6, 2021 13:34:58 GMT -6
I agree. We use it live, but it doesn’t hold a candle to a real Hammond in the studio. One thing that works really well is Nord’s electric pianos into a Fender Twin Reverb. That really sounds nice, as good as the real thing! Certainly things improve dramatically when there is sound happening in the air and a microphone is used to capture that sound. I still wouldn't say it is as good as the real thing, but it's certainly better. But even an old Rhodes sample set - something like the original Scarbee - is miles better than the samples in my Nord.
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Post by popmann on Apr 6, 2021 13:52:49 GMT -6
The answer is why I've used VIs for over two decades. Nords suck. I mean that's not a dig on THEM specifically, but hardware keyboards have been using 1998 technology ever since. I get how sometimes people get the IMPRESSION than a $3k Yamaha DP would have better piano sounds than a VI--if you're not someone who is a keyboard player per se, but they simply DON'T.
I own a Kronos, because money where my mouth is--they DID change the tech to be closer to software instruments...and ten years ago, it was a contender....but, they stopped developing it really. They released 8 more version of the Kronos that is basically my machine with bigger SSds...more RAM stock...a few more samples stock that I would have to buy for mine...I thought they "got it" and were making a hardware platform. But, ehh...oh well--it's still astounding how good their Steinway is compared to like a new yamaha or whatever...but, compared to Ivory or Embertone? Nope.
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Post by ab101 on Apr 6, 2021 13:53:15 GMT -6
I have vienna piano sample libraries. I might consider a Kawai Mp11se for the studio because of the keybed and it may be that the sound is great in a mix. Likely better than a Nord which I did have at one time. (They have a Nord Piano 5 now, I think - and maybe they improved it.)
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Post by schmalzy on Apr 6, 2021 13:55:55 GMT -6
I thought I was crazy when a guy brought in his Nord and I didn't think it sounded good. He was 100% certain it was the best thing possible for the sounds he was going for.
I was like..."maybe I'm wrong but we're going to want to record MIDI as well as the tone just in case we want to...you know...uhhhhh...run it back out to the Nord so you can play the controls with two hands! Yeah! That's what I meant!"
I'm SO glad I did. I had two free plugs and a couple paid ones that all sounded better. I'm glad I went with my gut and I'm always happy to be reassured by cats like you all here!
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Post by stormymondays on Apr 6, 2021 13:57:19 GMT -6
On one particular occasion the Nord + Twin Reverb did beat a real Rhodes 73 (DI’d at another studio) by a mile. But it’s one of those “you had to be there” things. I now have a Wurly in the studio and nothing can touch it though!
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Post by the other mark williams on Apr 6, 2021 14:19:20 GMT -6
On one particular occasion the Nord + Twin Reverb did beat a real Rhodes 73 (DI’d at another studio) by a mile. But it’s one of those “you had to be there” things. I can believe that, especially given it was an "in the air capture" vs. a DI.
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 6, 2021 14:28:20 GMT -6
I can get some really cool tones out of my Nord, especially when I’m slamming the input on a tube pre into distortion and compressing the living crap out of it...but it sure doesn’t sound like a Rhodes at that point!
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Post by ab101 on Apr 6, 2021 14:41:04 GMT -6
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Post by Ned Ward on Apr 6, 2021 15:01:26 GMT -6
Not that I could get close money wise - but why not just buy an Elctro 6 D and be done with it? What VSTi's are you using, and why the Nord vs. the Yamaha, or others? If you look at it as getting a great keyboard controller with built-in sounds, maybe, but also not sure where this or the Yamaha will trump a virtual instrument, but it does depend on what you use. I have Applied Acoustics Lounge Lizard and prefer its Rhodes and Wurlitzer over the Arturia Virtual Instrument versions, but your mileage may vary. Haven't compared pianos, but sometimes even the cheap AIR Mini Grand works for a given track...
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Post by Quint on Apr 6, 2021 15:43:43 GMT -6
The answer is why I've used VIs for over two decades. Nords suck. I mean that's not a dig on THEM specifically, but hardware keyboards have been using 1998 technology ever since. I get how sometimes people get the IMPRESSION than a $3k Yamaha DP would have better piano sounds than a VI--if you're not someone who is a keyboard player per se, but they simply DON'T. I own a Kronos, because money where my mouth is--they DID change the tech to be closer to software instruments...and ten years ago, it was a contender....but, they stopped developing it really. They released 8 more version of the Kronos that is basically my machine with bigger SSds...more RAM stock...a few more samples stock that I would have to buy for mine...I thought they "got it" and were making a hardware platform. But, ehh...oh well--it's still astounding how good their Steinway is compared to like a new yamaha or whatever...but, compared to Ivory or Embertone? Nope. So what about those new little Yamaha Reface things? Are those also using old school tech/samples packaged in a snazzy new box, or are they actually an upgrade in sound quality?
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Post by popmann on Apr 6, 2021 16:02:27 GMT -6
The answer is why I've used VIs for over two decades. Nords suck. I mean that's not a dig on THEM specifically, but hardware keyboards have been using 1998 technology ever since. I get how sometimes people get the IMPRESSION than a $3k Yamaha DP would have better piano sounds than a VI--if you're not someone who is a keyboard player per se, but they simply DON'T. I own a Kronos, because money where my mouth is--they DID change the tech to be closer to software instruments...and ten years ago, it was a contender....but, they stopped developing it really. They released 8 more version of the Kronos that is basically my machine with bigger SSds...more RAM stock...a few more samples stock that I would have to buy for mine...I thought they "got it" and were making a hardware platform. But, ehh...oh well--it's still astounding how good their Steinway is compared to like a new yamaha or whatever...but, compared to Ivory or Embertone? Nope. So what about those new little Yamaha Reface things? Are those also using old school tech/samples packaged in a snazzy new box, or are they actually an upgrade in sound quality? I would assume so...but, note they appear to be synths and entry level/portable ones. They're not emulating a Rhodes or Wurli or Hammond or grand piano. Those are really all I "know" about. Synth play by different rules because they're always DSP based. All newer keybaord have mor3e DSP than old ones--the thing is, for emulation of those old boards, that's at best a band aid for lack of sampling. Yamaha's CP insert latest number...would be the one that SHOULD be the one with the updated tech, but it's not. They put nicer FX on the same small samples. Seriously ...I play one Steinway that's 45gb for the one piano...and one that 30gb per mic position--so something like 150gb on the SSD...I think the largest grand piano samples in a Yamaha CP something are like 256MB...MB. Maybe it's 512. While size isn't everything in emulation sampling, on SOME level, you can't do groovy sound design around 512mb vs 45gb. I mean one of those has EVERY note on that piano BOTH pedal up AND down sampled all the way to SILENCE...with round robins for repeating notes...and the other samples every 3 or 4 for half a second and loops it to fade.
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Post by Quint on Apr 6, 2021 16:19:30 GMT -6
So what about those new little Yamaha Reface things? Are those also using old school tech/samples packaged in a snazzy new box, or are they actually an upgrade in sound quality? I would assume so...but, note they appear to be synths and entry level/portable ones. They're not emulating a Rhodes or Wurli or Hammond or grand piano. Those are really all I "know" about. Synth play by different rules because they're always DSP based. All newer keybaord have mor3e DSP than old ones--the thing is, for emulation of those old boards, that's at best a band aid for lack of sampling. Yamaha's CP insert latest number...would be the one that SHOULD be the one with the updated tech, but it's not. They put nicer FX on the same small samples. Seriously ...I play one Steinway that's 45gb for the one piano...and one that 30gb per mic position--so something like 150gb on the SSD...I think the largest grand piano samples in a Yamaha CP something are like 256MB...MB. Maybe it's 512. While size isn't everything in emulation sampling, on SOME level, you can't do groovy sound design around 512mb vs 45gb. I mean one of those has EVERY note on that piano BOTH pedal up AND down sampled all the way to SILENCE...with round robins for repeating notes...and the other samples every 3 or 4 for half a second and loops it to fade. Well, they DO emulate Wurly/Rhodes and organs, but I do get what you're saying about samples versus dsp. I had originally thought that these new Reface boards were sample based, but I now realize that they are dsp after going back and reading about them.
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Post by mhbunch on Apr 7, 2021 1:29:16 GMT -6
In my experience having played/recorded a bunch and luckily enough to own a few - when it comes to wurlitzer/rhodes - theres a reason why they have skyrocketed in value. Really nothing beats the real thing.
so much more expressive and "happening" than VSTs. Inspiring to play and capture.
but VSTs easily beat the Nords.
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Post by keymod on Apr 7, 2021 2:53:38 GMT -6
They use a Nord at my church, I don't know which model specifically. Every time I'm there I want to run up on stage with an axe and hack the damn thing to pieces, along with whoever invented those god-awful pad sounds that they overuse.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,937
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Post by ericn on Apr 7, 2021 6:58:09 GMT -6
If you buy the Nord in 6 weeks you will miss something about your favorite VSTs and be back at the beginning but with a red controller 😎
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Post by popmann on Apr 7, 2021 8:48:13 GMT -6
Wait, I want to come at this differently--Kennedy--you need to buy a second hand Korg Kronos 88...you KNOW you do...I'll let you know if one comes up for sale locally!! Also--is Keyscape what you're using for this last minute Wurli? If so...let's have a differetn discussion. They never fixed the performance of that...and it's really NOT all that...it's kind of lumpy feeling to play even when you have a new machine where the resources aren't an issue. You know that OLD Scarbee 200a? Open that up...turn off any and all effects...turn the "noise" up to ten. That's going to use like 20MB of RAM to buffer...play like a champ...I keep trying newer ones..but, after whatever honeymoon, I go back to the Kronos or Scarbee. Don't equate it with his old Rhodes...which is "less than" --and I think why he made a newer Rhodes88.
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 7, 2021 13:18:12 GMT -6
. You know that OLD Scarbee 200a? Open that up...turn off any and all effects...turn the "noise" up to ten. That's going to use like 20MB of RAM to buffer...play like a champ...I keep trying newer ones..but, after whatever honeymoon, I go back to the Kronos or Scarbee. I think we’re referencing the same VI but the legacy Rhodes in Kontakt, not the separate Scarbee module, sounds killer. I keep going back to that one too.
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Post by popmann on Apr 7, 2021 14:03:49 GMT -6
I mean the Scarbee 200a Wurli circa like 12 years ago...not his old Rhodes...I like his newer Scarbee88 better...I don't even have the Kontakt factory library loaded. Are you telling me I'm missing out and should load that up?
While we're on the EP subject, I find his Rhodes88 plays better if you add a modulator for "velocity...to volume" at over 75%. He seems to have taken a lot of the playing dynamics out of it...Keyscape's PRESETS do that too--it must make for a cooler demo...but, he doesn't have a knob to undo it like Keyscape does. You have to go into the guts of Kontakt.
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Post by Tbone81 on Apr 7, 2021 17:28:10 GMT -6
I mean the Scarbee 200a Wurli circa like 12 years ago...not his old Rhodes...I like his newer Scarbee88 better...I don't even have the Kontakt factory library loaded. Are you telling me I'm missing out and should load that up? While we're on the EP subject, I find his Rhodes88 plays better if you add a modulator for "velocity...to volume" at over 75%. He seems to have taken a lot of the playing dynamics out of it...Keyscape's PRESETS do that too--it must make for a cooler demo...but, he doesn't have a knob to undo it like Keyscape does. You have to go into the guts of Kontakt. My bad, I said Rhodes but was thinking Wurli... but yes the Kontakt factory library has some cool legacy instruments I really like, the E. Pianos being some of them. Definitely like some of them better than the Scarbee's, but I'll have to double check which models, I'm a little fuzzy on it at the moment. There's a few nuggets of gold (or at least silver) in there.
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