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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 14:36:09 GMT -6
Hey, all! A super annoying problem just popped up in a song I tracked recently. I have a track with some static/noise/shorts. I was hoping someone could identify what the problem is so I can make sure this sort of thing doesn't happen again. Unfortunately I'm just not well-versed enough in all of the various messed up sounds that can happen to a signal to be able to figure it out. Does the group mind offer a diagnosis? I didn't hear it during tracking and it's only on one take of the performances - the last of 9 takes total and the best take by a mile. Five minutes later we recorded drum samples and there's no static or gating sounds in the samples. In fact, it's only in the last 2 minutes of the take. It's not even the whole take! Signal chain: Sennheiser 604->mic cable->stage box->Allen & Heath GL4 console preamp->Aux Out->patchbay->Apollo converter. You'll notice there's no processing and definitely no noise gate. The signal SOUNDS like it gets gated at certain times, though. Here's a link to 20 sec portion of the file so you can hear it: drive.google.com/file/d/1xz7mzHF1QYjCnkAaQcGJRNdjw74dt2EF/view?usp=sharingAny thoughts? I'd love to make sure I get it sorted out but I don't really know where to start since it didn't happen before or after this one take, everything was torn down before it was noticed, and theoretically nothing changed or was moved between take 8 (with no static/noise/shorts), take 9 (with the static/noise/shorts), and the drum samples (with no static/noise/shorts). Thanks for any guidance/help you can lend! |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2021 14:46:11 GMT -6
Drag, but if you have 9 takes, you must be able to comp these noise parts out ?
They all be lined up in your daw: right?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2021 14:49:55 GMT -6
It’s always in the loudest spots sure there is not clipping in your daw or check every part in your mix path to see if something is clipping, it has a funny quality to it , what mike and pre were used?
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 14:55:46 GMT -6
Drag, but if you have 9 takes, you must be able to comp these noise parts out ? They all be lined up in your daw: right? All live tracked with a full band and no click, fills were all improvised and were always a touch different, importantly the cymbals weren't consistent going in and out of the fills/sections. So no, I can't comp it out. I DEFINITELY tried, though. |
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 26, 2021 14:56:27 GMT -6
Kinda sounds like a dirty pot to me.
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 26, 2021 14:56:47 GMT -6
This is a tom mic?
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 26, 2021 14:59:01 GMT -6
That's for sure a shit connection somewhere.
You have a lot of connections going on, so take the ends apart on the cables you used(if you remember) and check the solder joints. Could be a in the console itself as well.
The only other thing I think it could be is the mic itself has a bad connection in it.
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 15:01:57 GMT -6
It’s always in the loudest spots sure there is not clipping in your daw or check every part in your mix path to see if something is clipping, it has a funny quality to it , what mike and pre were used? Mic was a Sennheiser 604 and the preamp is the preamp on my Allen & Heath GL4 console. Unity at the fader, unity at the Aux output. Definitely not clipped anywhere. Converter is set to unity gain and peaks were 12db below 0dbfs. I turned it up for the export. The noise isn't consistent, though. There are some times where the tom is ringing with no static but the quieter snare hits a moment later ARE causing the static...then it drops to super quiet and gated even though there was no adjustment, then it pops back in to the bleed sounding "good" for a bit afterwards. I'm stumped. |
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Post by popmann on Mar 26, 2021 15:02:21 GMT -6
I haven't heard a sound liek that since like Win98 and some lousy Maudio drivers...they would like go corrupted somehow over the length of the session...and I would record stuff that sounded EXACTLY like that that.
So are you telling me you have a drum kit mic'd with say 6-10 mics...and ONLY this one had this issue? Or the whole 8th take of drums all the mics had this?
This sounds like what computer issues sound like. I don't know how you could mimic that garbled crackly crap with something in an analog chain in. I would say it's the Apollo...if you hear that "live"--I would want to unplug that channel from the Apollo and plug it immediately back into the desk--rule out the whole analog chain right there--then maybe into a different input on the Apollo? They ARE using digital controlled analog on any of the inputs with preamps...
This IS on a Mac...and NOT aggregating devices? Or are you trying to use an Apollo on Windows? Check a different FW cable? One of those being intermittent basically makes this sound of clocking signal being lost.
As to a fix--it's easy enough to use the good overheads to generate a Tom sample, either from another take or a sample library...and salvage--that said, I also applaud trying to get to the root. Just because we CAN fix stuff doesn't mean we should HAVE to...
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 15:03:10 GMT -6
It is...I should have specified. Sorry! |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2021 15:10:21 GMT -6
So, the overheads are clean, no noise?
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 26, 2021 15:10:56 GMT -6
It is...I should have specified. Sorry! I'd start at the console. Dirty pot/fader or bad connection. |
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 15:14:00 GMT -6
I haven't heard a sound liek that since like Win98 and some lousy Maudio drivers...they would like go corrupted somehow over the length of the session...and I would record stuff that sounded EXACTLY like that that. So are you telling me you have a drum kit mic'd with say 6-10 mics...and ONLY this one had this issue? Or the whole 8th take of drums all the mics had this? This sounds like what computer issues sound like. I don't know how you could mimic that garbled crackly crap with something in an analog chain in. I would say it's the Apollo...if you hear that "live"--I would want to unplug that channel from the Apollo and plug it immediately back into the desk--rule out the whole analog chain right there--then maybe into a different input on the Apollo? They ARE using digital controlled analog on any of the inputs with preamps... This IS on a Mac...and NOT aggregating devices? Or are you trying to use an Apollo on Windows? Check a different FW cable? One of those being intermittent basically makes this sound of clocking signal being lost. As to a fix--it's easy enough to use the good overheads to generate a Tom sample, either from another take or a sample library...and salvage--that said, I also applaud trying to get to the root. Just because we CAN fix stuff doesn't mean we should HAVE to... I had a band mic'd with 17 mics. 13 through the console (two room/talkback mics summed down to a single channel for those doing i/o math later). This is the only mic and the only take with that noise. It's a tom mic so at least it's not super critical. Two different converters: Apollo 8 (via Thunderbolt) and a Focusrite Octopre MkII Dynamic (hooked up and clocked to the Apollo via ADAT going both ways). Computer is a Mac. Reaper is the DAW (though that won't matter). All preamps are outboard with no digital components. This messed up tom mic was going into the Apollo. I intend to just drop samples onto those hits that are wonky - luckily I took 8 different sample hits of this tom directly after this take and they sound great - but my whole ethos as an engineer is "use the band performances for all their worth until you absolutely can't...and then do everything else that's necessary to make it great" so I'd love to solve the problem before the next band is in! |
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 15:15:55 GMT -6
So, the overheads are clean, no noise? Overheads are clean. They went through preamps outside the console, though. The tom mic for the next tom over in the next channel on the console is also clean. |
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 26, 2021 15:42:43 GMT -6
Can you do this mix with no Tom mikes, double the overheads and eq them differently and see if bleed from other mikes can be the toms friends ?
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Post by schmalzy on Mar 26, 2021 15:51:33 GMT -6
Can you do this mix with no Tom mikes, double the overheads and eq them differently and see if bleed from other mikes can be the toms friends ? I have a solution for it. I'm going to take the samples I recorded and drop those into place (as phase accurately as possible) instead of those tom hits plus manually gating all the tom tracks. ...but I've definitely gone that route when I've received drum tracks without tom mics before! |
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Post by popmann on Mar 26, 2021 17:10:05 GMT -6
Hm...Im tempted to have you wiggle ADAT connectors while it's live...those things can be turd. But a lot of people above seem to think it's in the analog. I guess it's possible--that SOUNDS like a some digital garble to me...but since you CAN trace the analog--tap gain pots...wiggle that line of analog connectors--that shouldn't result in a any sound...if it DOES crackle when tapped or wiggled--you might investigate that connection.
That just sounds to MY ear like what used to happen with digital malfunction. I have had ADAT cables do weird sounding stuff over the years. Swap them for better built ones, and weirdness goes away. Are they like thin HOSA kind? I ended up when I had the KSP8 using it buying some that are like 1/4 thick and big heavy molded connectors...never had another issue. The clock would momentarily drop and reverbs go away, but only for a split second...but, the old Akai just to stop playback and bark that the clock was errant. No sooner than I'd see it on the screen, it would go away because the clock would lock back up.
But, yes--you've got to reproduce it--get to the bottom of the issue.
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 26, 2021 17:29:36 GMT -6
Yeah ADAT cables are notorious for doing shit like that. Check those for sure.
Im still pretty confident that's all it was in general. Somewhere the signal wasn't getting passed correctly and something is loose. Could be a lot of things but just have to go through everything. Next time it happens grab some tape to mark all the cables that are being used in that chain so you can check them after the session. Then just replace them all for good measure during the session.
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Post by svart on Mar 26, 2021 18:56:00 GMT -6
Corrosion on a connector. Happens to me occasionally on my brass connections.
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Post by bowie on Mar 26, 2021 19:41:00 GMT -6
I briefly read so pardon if I missed anything, but the general descriptions sound like something is not making proper contact. The "gating" issue happens when low level voltage fails to transmit but stronger levels make their way through. Could be anything from a bad solder joint to a pot, contact, cable, etc. I would start by monitoring the chain and then going through and wiggling every cable, connection, turning every pot, etc. This process of elimination will narrow it down a bit. Then, replace various pieces of gear in the chain to nail down exactly which one it is.
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Post by christopher on Mar 27, 2021 0:02:27 GMT -6
Gut instinct, first listen: Adat issues. I can only use my focusrite 18i20 as a slave, ... it is a slave and gets ADAT in. It cannot work any other way... it cannot be master, it cannot be adat in/out. I told Focusrite again last week if they don’t care then I’ll let the internet know. Doesn’t seem like they care, they sent an email to provide proof of purchase, lol.
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Post by drumsound on Mar 27, 2021 9:30:19 GMT -6
Kinda sounds like a dirty pot to me. That's what it sounds like to me. With a console, its good to exercise every pot and switch on a regular basis. Spend an hour or so, starting at one end of the console. Turn each pot fully each directing 10 or so times. Maybe have a brush or swiffer handy to dust as you loosen things up. Push every switch 10 or so times as well. |
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