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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 18, 2021 11:44:19 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 18, 2021 16:22:42 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Mar 18, 2021 20:35:23 GMT -6
Of course they lie John. What business doesn't? Hey Mark - thanks. I'm going to check this out. Anything positive moving in the RIGHT direction is a Godsend!! It can only get better right?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 9:59:08 GMT -6
Spotalie
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 9:59:30 GMT -6
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 19, 2021 13:09:05 GMT -6
Of course they lie John. What business doesn't? Hey Mark - thanks. I'm going to check this out. Anything positive moving in the RIGHT direction is a Godsend!! It can only get better right? drbill, I'm super interested to hear about any results on your end with this system. I'm really curious to see if there's any chance it actually helps the artist. johneppstein and Johnkenn, I think it's telling that Spotify wouldn't actually answer the questions put to them by the UMAW. I'm sure they would claim they couldn't answer some of those questions b/c it would breach their contracts with the labels, but if so, that's a major problem for us as creators. Here's the thing, too, regarding the numbers Eppstein quoted above: It's not clear to me if Spotify is actually claiming those 13,400 artists actually made $50,000 or more, or just that they generated that much revenue in "recording and publishing royalties." If it's the latter (as I assume it is), then under Johnkenn's kind of situation, that $50,000 would get split between recording and publishing royalties at some % cut. Then whatever that number of publishing royalties is would get split 50/50 with his publisher, then that amount would get split with cowriters, etc. So it's not like 13,400 artists are walking home with $50,000+. That number would be much, much smaller, if my thinking on this is correct. Which makes it absolutely INSANE that Spotify is touting how awesome they are for these new numbers. Those numbers are abysmal.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 14:22:59 GMT -6
Yeah - they said they "generated" - not took home. Here's my understanding...and how the math works out for me. Here's the supposed breakdown: 30% to Spotify, 60% to owner of masters and then 10% leftover for publishers and creators.
So - I just looked at my last BMI statement. I have a song that Billy Ray Cyrus cut called "We Fought Hard." Last quarter, it was played (supposedly - how would I ever question this?) 6,020 times on Spotify Free. I got $.33 cents. Here's how I figure they arrived at that. And this is complicated, so listen closely lol.
6020 plays - made 33 cents
So I just plugged in a guess of them paying what they say they pay out - $.005 per impression. To save time, I'll just tell you I figured out it was actually .0033 cents.
Here's how I got there: 6020 x $.0033 = $19.86 Spotify gets 30% of that - $19.866 / .30 = $5.9598 Owner of the Master (label) gets 60% - $19.866 / .60 = $11.9196
So - that leaves 10% over for the writers and publishers - $1.9866 cents There were three writers with different publishing, so $1.98 / 3 = $.6622 cents Then, my publisher owned the publishing share of the royalty per my contract, so $.6622 / 2 = $.3311 cents Round to the nearest penny - $.33 cents
Now I also see it was played 9214 times with Spotify Premium...I got the big bucks there - around $.0064 per impression for a total of $.98 cents.
So - lets say BRC gets a sex change and his career blows up...he release my song and it get 100 million streams on Spotify. Life changing, right? Nope. Under the above deal, I get $10,666.67 Spotify would have made $192,000 Label would have made $384,000
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 19, 2021 15:23:36 GMT -6
It feels so wrong for me to hit the "Like" button on your post when I don't like anything about the situation.
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Post by drbill on Mar 19, 2021 15:44:02 GMT -6
Johnkenn John - from my understanding, you are not looking at the entire royalty structure. There are three additional pots that hold money for every dollar earned. First, Spotify takes its share. Roughly 30%. THEN - the balance gets split up. It's unclear to me if the $0.003-0.005 per stream is after Spotify takes their cut or before. At any rate, it is most decidedly NOT the writers cut. The writers cut is at best (if you own publishing and only write by yourself) roughly 6% of the $0.003-0.005. Second, the record company (rights holder) takes it's lions share (the biggest part - roughly 60%.) - that's the reason that record companies were making over a million dollars an hour from Spotify alone in 2020. Third and Fourth - the MLC and your PRO splits the left overs - roughly 6%/6%. (See my MLC thread from last week.). The reason your shares are so low is that at best you're splitting roughly 6% of the total with your publisher and other co-writers (if any). So at best you're getting only 3% of the total if you're the only writer. If you have 2 co-writers and equally split, then you're getting 1%. And with 6k streams, that ain't much. And yeah, I've only been collecting on the writers half of the publishing share to this point. Hoping to change that up in the future..... As musicians, we have to learn to game ALL the different royalty streams in the future. Or die trying.... The day of Performance Royalties collected by PRO's - being the king / saviors of writers / musicians is long over. (IMO) It's interesting to note that Apple Music and Spotify are almost identical in how they split royalties up. If the finger is to be pointed at the ugly elephant in the room - it's at the record companies IMO. Here's a pretty simple graphic. Attachments:
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Post by drbill on Mar 19, 2021 16:00:55 GMT -6
PS - in addition to the above royalties, there are also digital radio (non-"on demand" applications) that pay out pretty well too. (If you're getting played). Sound Exchange deals with those.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 16:57:30 GMT -6
That’s the only way I can arrive at the numbers that I get, and it makes perfect sense.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 16:58:32 GMT -6
And that diagram breaks down exactly like I was saying. 30/60/10
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Post by drbill on Mar 19, 2021 17:07:40 GMT -6
And that diagram breaks down exactly like I was saying. 30/60/10 yes. with the small portion being split between mechanicals - which go to the publisher, and the publisher is responsible for paying writer(s). - and PRO's which pay 50% to the writer. Simple, right?
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2021 17:15:13 GMT -6
And that diagram breaks down exactly like I was saying. 30/60/10 yes. with the small portion being split between mechanicals - which go to the publisher, and the publisher is responsible for paying writer(s). - and PRO's which pay 50% to the writer. Simple, right? Yeah - it’s like a 200% pie - publishing royalties and writer royalties. I guess it would be a great business if you owned the master, publishing and performance royalties. The next time I get more than 1000 streams for the songs I have like that will be the first.
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Post by donr on Mar 21, 2021 11:59:54 GMT -6
Sad to say, no money is going to be made on 6000 spins. If this was terrestrial radio, you'd have 50k spins worth of airplay publishing payment for one play on a major market radio station. One play x the listeners the station has.
BOC gets almost 3 million streams per week on Spotify, and we're non hall of fame classic rockers, and pikers compared to the chart toppers. We're one of the artists Spotify is lying about.
One reason the numbers keep going up is more and more people are using streaming services worldwide. And lots people listen to music they already know.
At this point 2021, streaming is beating the daylights out of all physical product historically, excepting the very year the original recordings were released. BOC's earners are now 40+ years old, and we're streaming our way into cars, living rooms and Alexas everywhere. This is why investors are paying artists big bucks for their songwriting.
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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 21, 2021 16:54:51 GMT -6
Sad to say, no money is going to be made on 6000 spins. If this was terrestrial radio, you'd have 50k spins worth of airplay publishing payment for one play on a major market radio station. One play x the listeners the station has. BOC gets almost 3 million streams per week on Spotify, and we're non hall of fame classic rockers, and pikers compared to the chart toppers. We're one of the artists Spotify is lying about. One reason the numbers keep going up is more and more people are using streaming services worldwide. And lots people listen to music they already know. At this point 2021, streaming is beating the daylights out of all physical product historically, excepting the very year the original recordings were released. BOC's earners are now 40+ years old, and we're streaming our way into cars, living rooms and Alexas everywhere. This is why investors are paying artists big bucks for their songwriting. That’s amazing man - that’s 150 million streams a year. Did you guys have to buy back your masters? I don’t really expect to make any money on a BRC cut nobody cares about…but a cup of coffee would be nice. All I have to do now is write a multi-cultural generational worldwide hit…and I’m golden lol
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Post by donr on Mar 21, 2021 20:11:53 GMT -6
Sad to say, no money is going to be made on 6000 spins. If this was terrestrial radio, you'd have 50k spins worth of airplay publishing payment for one play on a major market radio station. One play x the listeners the station has. BOC gets almost 3 million streams per week on Spotify, and we're non hall of fame classic rockers, and pikers compared to the chart toppers. We're one of the artists Spotify is lying about. One reason the numbers keep going up is more and more people are using streaming services worldwide. And lots people listen to music they already know. At this point 2021, streaming is beating the daylights out of all physical product historically, excepting the very year the original recordings were released. BOC's earners are now 40+ years old, and we're streaming our way into cars, living rooms and Alexas everywhere. This is why investors are paying artists big bucks for their songwriting. That’s amazing man - that’s 150 million streams a year. Did you guys have to buy back your masters? I don’t really expect to make any money on a BRC cut nobody cares about…but a cup of coffee would be nice. All I have to do now is write a multi-cultural generational worldwide hit…and I’m golden lol JK, I wouldn’t have seen this coming, even three years ago. I once traded a ‘57 Strat to buy that Roland bow shaped synth guitar. I thought drum machines would never catch on. The internet destroyed the record business, and out of the ashes emerges a juke box which everyone picks what they want to hear, and if it’s new music, they find someone to curate new music like a radio DJ used to. But say, you’re paying 10 bucks/mo for streaming, you’re first gonna make playlists of what you want to hear where ever you’re listening. The kids are digging the new artists. But everybody is streaming today. SONY still owns our masters and publishing. So they’re making some bank also. But for geezers like me, and the record companies, the legacy stuff is earning more today than anyone could have foreseen during the “free music” Napster era, or if we were still playing CD’s. The investors are betting the ball keeps rolling when the Boomers shuffle off. Because the world’s music history will be available at a whim to anyone in the future.
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