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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 13, 2021 20:08:23 GMT -6
I mean either there is a massive global conspiracy to not test a successful therapy or there’s valid reasons for structuring the studies the way they did. Or I guess a third option is nearly all doctors are incompetent (which as a group would also include the ones using HCL). Which seems more likely to you?
6 or 7 years changes nothing. We’d hit herd immunity before that, with the corresponding million plus death toll in the US. I can see no upside to this line of thinking.
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Post by drbill on Apr 13, 2021 20:32:48 GMT -6
I mean either there is a massive global conspiracy to not test a successful therapy or there’s valid reasons for structuring the studies the way they did. Or I guess a third option is nearly all doctors are incompetent (which as a group would also include the ones using HCL). Which seems more likely to you? 6 or 7 years changes nothing. We’d hit herd immunity before that, with the corresponding million plus death toll in the US. I can see no upside to this line of thinking. That's a great question. If there's a group of doctors having theoretical success in treatment, one would think that the tests / studies would lean that way to either prove efficacy or disprove it. Why go half way? I dunno. I'm not a researcher. I mean, if certain race vehicles are achieving success with a new blend of fuel and injection system, if I wanted to know the viability of their system, why would I test my race vehicle with their injection system, but not the fuel. Or the fuel, but not the injection system. Dumb. And yet..... So...do you know of a study that comes relatively close to what I mentioned? Or no? I honestly would love to see a unbiased study cause the doctors that are doing it seem to be raving at its effectiveness.... |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 13, 2021 20:48:26 GMT -6
Which cocktail? There’s so many dude. They’ve tested HCL. Then they tested HCL and Zpack. Then it was no, you also have to include zinc. But there’s sufficient zinc in the blood for the proposed method of action and the zinc concentrations that did the thing in vitro arent feasible in the body. Now it’s zinc and vitamin D. When does it end? The stuff doesn’t work. If it worked the whole world would be using it.
Again what is more likely? All the researchers want to intentionally ruin their own studies? Or it just doesn’t work?
Most likely is the docs success is by severity bias due to their patients combined with insufficient sample size. Again, you’d only expect 5 deaths per 1000 cases, and those will self select for severity to hospitals. Have you talked to an ER doc about how well HCL works? Because they don’t use it. (The standard response to this is, no by the time they’re that sick it’s too late.)
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Post by ragan on Apr 13, 2021 20:54:08 GMT -6
And again, “having success with” != a doctor gave it to some patients and they didn’t get severe Covid. They were overwhelmingly unlikely to get severe Covid anyway. Give them a beer and you’d very likely “have success” too.
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 13, 2021 20:59:02 GMT -6
Anyway sorry - zero minds changed and feelings hurt is the outcome of this discussion. Cheers, y’all have a good one. 👍👍🤟
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Post by ragan on Apr 13, 2021 21:35:50 GMT -6
Shit, I didn't know there were hurt feels. I'm more dispassionate than most when it comes to stuff like this and I sometimes forget that not everyone is emotionally disconnected from the material when frank discussion is going on. I certainly don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings (or even have an effect on their feelings). <peace sign> |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 13, 2021 21:37:35 GMT -6
I meant eventually - once you hit a logjam the convo ends happy or sad. We’re all friends and good people here so no need for anything but happy. 👍👍
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 10:49:43 GMT -6
Got my second dose as an essential worker. The first dose had me feel like my shoulder was pulled out of its socket and then set back in. I was also really tired. Now I just feel a full body warmth a few minutes later and my tinnitus rose up, similar to when I take aspirin and my head feels weird like I’m on a bad trip. Wow.
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Post by svart on Apr 14, 2021 11:00:24 GMT -6
Got my second dose as an essential worker. The first dose had me feel like my shoulder was pulled out of its socket and then set back in. I was also really tired. Now I just feel a full body warmth a few minutes later and my tinnitus rose up, similar to when I take aspirin and my head feels weird like I’m on a bad trip. Wow. Which vaccine? My ladyfriend got her second Pfizer one here (everyone can get them in GA) and she's laid up in bed with aches and chills and lethargy and transient fever. I'm getting the first Moderna one next week and don't know anyone who's had that one to tell me what to expect. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 14, 2021 12:18:15 GMT -6
Got my second dose as an essential worker. The first dose had me feel like my shoulder was pulled out of its socket and then set back in. I was also really tired. Now I just feel a full body warmth a few minutes later and my tinnitus rose up, similar to when I take aspirin and my head feels weird like I’m on a bad trip. Wow. Which vaccine? My ladyfriend got her second Pfizer one here (everyone can get them in GA) and she's laid up in bed with aches and chills and lethargy and transient fever. I'm getting the first Moderna one next week and don't know anyone who's had that one to tell me what to expect. Pfizer. Going in for a half shift now at the 9-5. Let’s see how I do this strung out. |
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Post by drbill on Apr 14, 2021 12:25:35 GMT -6
I've been getting vaccines in my adult life for 25+ years now. Flu shot every year, the Shingles and new Shingles vaccine, last year got the Pneumonia vax for the first time. I've got nothing against vaccine's and have been a strong supporter of vaccines against recommendations of friends and family who have been vehemently anti-vaccine. I have several close friends who can trace their children's mental issues right back too when their kids got massive vaccine treatments - almost to the day. Very sad....
I've personally never had anything other than mild shoulder pain for a day or two. But I can't lie - these new C19 vax's scare the crap out of me. Would love to have better long term stats, but obviously that's not going to happen for a year or two or more.....
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Post by svart on Apr 14, 2021 12:49:05 GMT -6
I've been getting vaccines in my adult life for 25+ years now. Flu shot every year, the Shingles and new Shingles vaccine, last year got the Pneumonia vax for the first time. I've got nothing against vaccine's and have been a strong supporter of vaccines against recommendations of friends and family who have been vehemently anti-vaccine. I have several close friends who can trace their children's mental issues right back too when their kids got massive vaccine treatments - almost to the day. Very sad.... I've personally never had anything other than mild shoulder pain for a day or two. But I can't lie - these new C19 vax's scare the crap out of me. Would love to have better long term stats, but obviously that's not going to happen for a year or two or more..... Yes. I'm somewhat concerned about the longterm effects. Tons of people are like "but the effects are minimal", but I'm talking about the long term, like 5 years from now we all have Lupus from overactive immune systems that have tuned in on a similar human protein to the one targeted on covid by the mRNA instructions. But then again, I'm making a tactical decision here. I have a handful of bands that want to start recording, and I'm going to have to bite this bullet to make it happen. I had a band come through around xmas of last year, they all took covid tests and came back negative I was told. They spent a week in the studio. A week later, one of the members was sick and tested positive for covid. Turns out that specific person never got tested. Their girlfriend got tested the week prior and they told me "well she got tested and we're always together so I thought it was just as good". The girlfriend also tested positive a week later. I tested negative for two weeks after that but it ruined christmas I had planned with my elderly mother that I hadn't seen in almost a year. So I'm just going to do the vaccine and hope for the best. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 14, 2021 14:59:46 GMT -6
Right leg is probably 95% now. Left is still a bit tingly.
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Post by dmo on Apr 14, 2021 18:51:25 GMT -6
Which vaccine? My ladyfriend got her second Pfizer one here (everyone can get them in GA) and she's laid up in bed with aches and chills and lethargy and transient fever. I'm getting the first Moderna one next week and don't know anyone who's had that one to tell me what to expect. Svart, I had Moderna shortly after approval as a frontline healthcare guy, first dose mild arm soreness but not much else. I started this thread after my second because it made me feel fairly crappy (not unanticipated) - headache, fatigue muscle aches but also febrile into the 102 range for the first 24-48h. Ended up calling out of a shift acutely for only the second time in 36+ years since we were still in the don't show up if febrile phase (and still should stay home if fever even if you think it's just the vaccine reaction). My hospital was all Moderna and the majority of folks who reacted to the first shot were those who's had Covid previously. So first dose shouldn't be too bad but I'd be prepared to need a day or two after the second.
Bill
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Post by ragan on Apr 14, 2021 20:51:20 GMT -6
My folks and my wife's folks all had Moderna and none of them had very strong reactions. Like dmo says though, I'd plan as if you will have a reaction and not have anything important to do the next day or two. Like I mentioned, the second Pfizer dose knocked me down pretty good. My wife's reaction wasn't so strong. Seems to be pretty down to the individual. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Apr 14, 2021 21:27:28 GMT -6
Wife and I got our First Pfizer shots yesterday. Mild arm tenderness, no biggie.
Open to all adults in NJ right now. Which is pretty cool. No problem getting an appointment - which is slightly worrisome imo.
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Post by teejay on Apr 17, 2021 19:48:41 GMT -6
Food for thought. Moderna has been viewed as an overvalued company for years, banking on mRNA as its golden ticket. mRNA targeted at diseases, not vaccines. Turnover, safety issues, and a decade of failed mRNA solutions have been the story. Now in 2020 with the arrival of COVID they've suddenly figured everything out? They are now a public company, and raking in the profits with projected sales of $18b-$20b for 2021 and a share price increase of 372%. The 48 year-old CEO owns 9% of the shares, now valued at over $5b. If their therapy (now labeled a vaccine) didn't work, would they tell you? As one person stated, in 5 years will Moderna be viewed as another Theranos? I'm really trying not to pick sides, but there are always two sides to consider. www.statnews.com/2016/09/13/moderna-therapeutics-biotech-mrna/www.statnews.com/2017/01/10/moderna-trouble-mrna/ |
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Post by drbill on Apr 17, 2021 21:37:23 GMT -6
there are always two sides to consider. That's what I believe. There is just a lot of conflicting Data out there. Including statistical data that each vaccine company submitted to the FDA for EUA approval -- not outside studies but Pfizer, Moderna, J&J themselves -- showing statistically that the risk ratio is a essentially the same between control group (unvaccinated) and experimental group (vaccinated) group of those tested. In other words - statistically according to their data - the same amount of people will come down with Covid in both groups. (Close, not exact of course.) Seems crazy to me. There's a LOT of money at play as you mentioned. I think those who were vaccinated has less symptoms though. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 17, 2021 21:49:13 GMT -6
Where do you see that? That seems to conflict with the links I sent you earlier. Can you share that?
And there aren’t always two sides to consider. Just because there’s an opposing opinion doesn’t mean it’s a reasonable alternative. The earth isn’t flat.
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Post by drbill on Apr 17, 2021 22:05:17 GMT -6
Are you sure you want to watch a video?  |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 17, 2021 22:13:02 GMT -6
No, I have no interest in a video. If there is evidence presented to the FDA I’d be interested in reading it. Those would be in writing. I linked the J&J FDA presentation straight from the FDA website. It didn’t say what you said. I also linked the Pfizer and Moderna studies published in medical journals.
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Post by ragan on Apr 17, 2021 22:15:32 GMT -6
Weaponized false equivalency has been one of the main stories of the last several years in my opinion. If there's consensus among 50,000 experts about something but there are 5 who are high-profile, vocal contrarians that've left their academic jobs and formed a 'think tank', having "both sides" on your talk show or in your article isn't "balance", it's performative farce.
I've used it before but it reminds me of the Isaac Asimov quote:
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge'."
It's funny too because we all actually accept expertise in areas where we have some. Because we've worked in that field and have some solid baseline understanding about how things work. How many times has some knucklehead come barreling through the forums spamming everything up with his 'revolutionary' new budget mic? Talking a big game about how classic Neumann's and AKGs and Teles are actually really sub-par mics and he's cracked the code to World Class Recordings and you can get it too if you buy his OEM re-badge for $199. Those of us who've spent years and decades making records and seen lots of attention-seekers come and go (correctly) roll our eyes and move on. But if you doll it up in a conspiratorial hot take and stick it on YouTube, there are absolutely inexperienced people out there who will gobble it up and become convinced that spending good money on a nice mic is just a result of brainwashing by Big Microphone and blah blah blah.
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Post by drbill on Apr 17, 2021 22:16:44 GMT -6
No, I have no interest in a video. Fair enough. Just consider it a hoax then : Dr. Richard Fleming, a Physicist-Nuclear Cardiologist, breaks down the companies; Pfizer, Moderna, and Johnson & Johnson's own statistical data that each company submitted to the FDA revealed that NONE of these "vaccines" would stop a vaccinated person from contracting covid. The Emergency Use Authorization data “shows there is no difference.”
My original comment stands though - there is a LOT of conflicting data out there. |
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Post by ragan on Apr 17, 2021 22:17:21 GMT -6
there are always two sides to consider. That's what I believe. There is just a lot of conflicting Data out there. Including statistical data that each vaccine company submitted to the FDA for EUA approval -- not outside studies but Pfizer, Moderna, J&J themselves -- showing statistically that the risk ratio is a essentially the same between control group (unvaccinated) and experimental group (vaccinated) group of those tested. In other words - statistically according to their data - the same amount of people will come down with Covid in both groups. (Close, not exact of course.) Seems crazy to me. There's a LOT of money at play as you mentioned. I think those who were vaccinated has less symptoms though. Big claims like that need to come with big evidence. Let's see these studies/reports/analysis. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Apr 17, 2021 22:18:20 GMT -6
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