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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 16:03:26 GMT -6
Once these pass the regulatory hurdle of full FDA approval they ought to be treated just like other vaccines. On the schedule, etc.
I don’t think people should be forced. I do think it is an objectively bad decision to not be vaccinated, with the exception of if you’ve been infected with covid (and you know, like you got tested, not you think because you had the sniffles last October).
“Everyone should be vaccinated for polio”
- normal
“Everyone should be vaccinate for covid”
- totally insane, apparently
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2021 16:17:33 GMT -6
Once these pass the regulatory hurdle of full FDA approval they ought to be treated just like other vaccines. On the schedule, etc. I don’t think people should be forced. I do think it is an objectively bad decision to not be vaccinated, with the exception of if you’ve been infected with covid (and you know, like you got tested, not you think because you had the sniffles last October). “Everyone should be vaccinated for polio” - normal “Everyone should be vaccinate for covid” - totally insane, apparently You need to add your COVID was genotyped, if you don’t know the Varient you had you don’t know what any natural immunity will be effective against and not based on what someone “knows” but by testing. For a virus like this with the unvaccinated numbers of those who had Alpha it’s a pretty good bet the virus will adapt to at the very least be spread by those who have natural anti bodies. Remember natural anti bodies and the immune system in general is very individual and the ability from person to person will vary. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 12, 2021 16:18:01 GMT -6
Home slice said a lot more than people who had been recovered don't need to be vaccinated. He also said no one under 50 needed to be vaccinated and that the vaccines have killed 50,000 people and kept pushing HCQ after it was definitively shown to not to a daggum thing. He's a hack. I was simply judging the video on its own merits. I don't know much about McCullough, sounds like you do. When it comes to vaccinating people under 50 I agree with you. But I took his comments about that a little more loosely than you did. It sounded like he was advocating prioritizing certain groups for the vaccination. I could be wrong about that. He did say that he was stating an opinion and that there should be a committee of doctors making these types of reccomendations. And did state that different doctors have different opinions. Didn't seem so unreasonable to me. IME if you ask 10 doctors the same question you'll get 10 different answers. But maybe you're right. Maybe he's a hack. But what does that then say about the journals that have published him? Is it possible he holds some incorrect views and some correct ones? Honest question. If someone makes one (or several) incorrect statements, do you still listen to what they have to say and evaluate their statements individually? Or do you throw out everything they say on principle? For me, in this context, I'm for listening to it all and then trying to sort out the truth. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 12, 2021 16:19:13 GMT -6
Once these pass the regulatory hurdle of full FDA approval they ought to be treated just like other vaccines. On the schedule, etc. I don’t think people should be forced. I do think it is an objectively bad decision to not be vaccinated, with the exception of if you’ve been infected with covid (and you know, like you got tested, not you think because you had the sniffles last October). “Everyone should be vaccinated for polio” - normal “Everyone should be vaccinate for covid” - totally insane, apparently You need to add your COVID was genotyped, if you don’t know the Varient you had you don’t know what any natural immunity will be effective against and not based on what someone “knows” but by testing. For a virus like this with the unvaccinated numbers of those who had Alpha it’s a pretty good bet the virus will adapt to at the very least be spread by those who have natural anti bodies. Remember natural anti bodies and the immune system in general is very individual and the ability from person to person will vary. Well stated. I always appreciate your balanced and impartial statements Eric! |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 12, 2021 16:21:42 GMT -6
Literally no one is anti-therapeutic. People are throwing the kitchen sink to find treatment regimes. In the context of that video the idea was that therapy wasn't being pursued in the pre-hospital environment. I agree that in the inpatient setting people are trying everything they can to treat this. |
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Post by Tbone81 on Aug 12, 2021 16:25:45 GMT -6
You're kind of conflating several different things, no? McCullough didn't say, in that video, that people shouldn't get vaccinated. He said that if you've already had covid there is no good medical rationale for getting the vaccine. That's an opinion shared by lots of Dr's. The push for everyone (including formerly sick people) to get vaccinated is a public health Policy decision. Its simply easier to make a blanket statement like "everyone should get the vax" then to deal with the intricacies of sorting between the sick, formerly sick, presumed sick, healthy-never-been-sick etc etc. We can (and should) debate whether those policy decisions were/are good or not, but the medical rationale for it seems shaky at best, imo. And even though the medical community is pushing people to get vaccinated, that should not be a substitute for treatment, it should be an adjunct to it, which was one of McCullough's other points. In regards to the link you provided, its still unclear whether "reinfections" have really happened (or to what degree they happen) or whether the "reinfections" were people not fully healed who relapsed into a 2nd phase of symptoms. With the way the virus has thus far mutated, both are certainly plausible and likely. Matt beat me to the punch regarding Dr McCullough's ideas. I'll repeat that he actually does say that people under 50 don't need to be vaccinated. I think we can only judge the merits of past decisions in the context in which they were made. Doctors are still learning about how to treat this disease...how were they supposed to make treatment recommendations before effective treatment was understood? From a public policy perspective, simple messaging is key and I think this is where various authorities could have done much better. Either way, I think it's ok for people to be wrong if they're operating in good faith. If they are truly interested in the best outcomes they will correct their mistakes and continue working towards solutions. Again, my issue is with the prominent people who are encouraging the exact opposite of the current guidance and doing so in bad faith...as if somehow it's un American and anti-freedom to implement health and safety regulations during a pandemic? Stop lights and seat belts are ok...decades of mandated vaccinations are ok...but masks mandates are threatening our freedom? Regarding "effective treatment" strategies...you're right to an extent, I agree. However, I've stated before that if we in the medical community had been left to treat this the same way we'd treat all viral pneumonia's we would have been much better off. The treatment guidelines we initially were given turned out to be horribly wrong, and damaging to people. It wasn't a conspiracy or anything like that. Just human nature that resulted in massive fuck up. |
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Post by seawell on Aug 12, 2021 16:27:02 GMT -6
Vaccinating everyone is insane because you're never going to get 100% compliance. Is it ok to mandate/force them then? We already mandate immunizations. It's undeniably beneficial to society as a whole. Why is this different? I don't think it's too hard to recognize the difference between this vaccine and others. mRNA has never been used in humans until now....no full FDA approval....vaers reports like we've never seen(I know some of you guys hate that but it isn't going away 😉) credible doctors and scientist that have concerns. How many other vaccines are mandated for an illness someone has already had and recovered from? How many other vaccines have been required to go into a grocery store? This is not normal. For the record, I've taken every other vaccine in my life except for this one...even a flu shot. I was in an interesting position that I never got chicken pox as a kid. So, when the vaccine came out when I was around 18, I got it. I was the only kid I knew growing up that didn't catch chicken pox. Guess how many of my friends that had chickenpox got the chickenpox vaccine once it came out...ZERO. This whole issue would go a lot better if the proper consideration were given to natural immunity. When it isn't even considered people are rightfully skeptical. Why not consider how many people have natural immunity and add that in with your vaccination rate to get a better idea of where we actually stand in regards to herd immunity? |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 16:28:17 GMT -6
When his videos first came out I said hm that’s interesting. Then he kept doubling down and doubling down. The question of HCQ is essentially closed, yet he keeps on. He may be a great prof, I don’t know. He might have used to be amazing but apparently went nuts. I know a certain famous New York hard nosed attorney that fits that description. On the topic of covid thougg I think he’s best avoided.
And I don’t agree that therapy hasn’t been pursued in outpatient therapy. The truth is two fold - one, we’ve focused more on inpatient, because that’s frankly the only place it matters. The vast vast majority of outpatient illness is going to self resolve. Two the fact that HCQ and Ivermectin are the source of so much ongoing study actually belie the claim that they’re being suppressed or ignored. Dozens and dozens of studies on these and many others have been tried. Pre test probability tells us most won’t make any difference at all.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 16:30:29 GMT -6
Because recovered immunity is really hard to study and verify. Honestly, that’s it. And we don’t know all that much about immunology anyway, so everyone is basically making educated guesses and erring on the side of caution.
Will you drop your objection to the Pfizer and Moderna shots when they inevitably get full approval from the FDA?
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Post by seawell on Aug 12, 2021 16:35:07 GMT -6
Because recovered immunity is really hard to study and verify. Honestly, that’s it. And we don’t know all that much about immunology anyway, so everyone is basically making educated guesses and erring on the side of caution. Will you drop your objection to the Pfizer and Moderna shots when they inevitably get full approval from the FDA? No, because the non-FDA approval isn't the only reason I'm passing on it. I was only pointing it out to show that it isn't the same as every other vaccine on the schedule. Like I've stated before, I had covid and recovered. I don't feel the immunity I have is any less understood than the ever changing info that keeps coming out about the true effectiveness of the vaccines. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 12, 2021 16:36:56 GMT -6
Matt beat me to the punch regarding Dr McCullough's ideas. I'll repeat that he actually does say that people under 50 don't need to be vaccinated. I think we can only judge the merits of past decisions in the context in which they were made. Doctors are still learning about how to treat this disease...how were they supposed to make treatment recommendations before effective treatment was understood? From a public policy perspective, simple messaging is key and I think this is where various authorities could have done much better. Either way, I think it's ok for people to be wrong if they're operating in good faith. If they are truly interested in the best outcomes they will correct their mistakes and continue working towards solutions. Again, my issue is with the prominent people who are encouraging the exact opposite of the current guidance and doing so in bad faith...as if somehow it's un American and anti-freedom to implement health and safety regulations during a pandemic? Stop lights and seat belts are ok...decades of mandated vaccinations are ok...but masks mandates are threatening our freedom? Regarding "effective treatment" strategies...you're right to an extent, I agree. However, I've stated before that if we in the medical community had been left to treat this the same way we'd treat all viral pneumonia's we would have been much better off. The treatment guidelines we initially were given turned out to be horribly wrong, and damaging to people. It wasn't a conspiracy or anything like that. Just human nature that resulted in massive fuck up. Understood. People make errors, especially when dealing with global emergencies. People with honest motives correct their errors and push on. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 16:38:23 GMT -6
That’s why I said when it’s approved it should be treated the same.
The ever changing thing is silly. We know as much about the efficacy of the vaccines as we do about the duration of immunity for previously infected people. Probably more, actually, since it is easier to study.
When a new virus variant comes out, all bets are off until you get new info. That’s true for vaccines and for unvaccinated and for previously infected.
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2021 16:42:05 GMT -6
Vaccinating everyone is insane because you're never going to get 100% compliance. Is it ok to mandate/force them then? Why is this different? Why? For one, non-FDA approved. At least not like a traditional vaccine has. It's got emergency use authorization only. It's not fully vetted yet. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 16:47:02 GMT -6
Same question - when the FDA approves these in the next few months will the objection cease?
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2021 17:01:13 GMT -6
Same question - when the FDA approves these in the next few months will the objection cease? Not sure if you were speaking to me or not Matt, but I have no "objection". If you want to take it - Awesome! For me - I am not convinced yet. Too much dis-information and politics and BS involved. Not sure if an accurate assessment is even possible at this point. At least for me. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 12, 2021 17:03:40 GMT -6
We already mandate immunizations. It's undeniably beneficial to society as a whole. Why is this different? I don't think it's too hard to recognize the difference between this vaccine and others. mRNA has never been used in humans until now....no full FDA approval....vaers reports like we've never seen(I know some of you guys hate that but it isn't going away 😉) credible doctors and scientist that have concerns. How many other vaccines are mandated for an illness someone has already had and recovered from? How many other vaccines have been required to go into a grocery store? This is not normal. For the record, I've taken every other vaccine in my life except for this one...even a flu shot. I was in an interesting position that I never got chicken pox as a kid. So, when the vaccine came out when I was around 18, I got it. I was the only kid I knew growing up that didn't catch chicken pox. Guess how many of my friends that had chickenpox got the chickenpox vaccine once it came out...ZERO. This whole issue would go a lot better if the proper consideration were given to natural immunity. When it isn't even considered people are rightfully skeptical. Why not consider how many people have natural immunity and add that in with your vaccination rate to get a better idea of where we actually stand in regards to herd immunity? This is not normal because we are in a situation that isn't normal. Arkansas was down to 12 available ICU beds as of two days ago. Texas is out of beds in a number of places and is scrambling to recruit medical staff from out of state. Mississippi is setting up makeshift medical facilities in parking garages. I don't think anyone is actually disregarding natural immunity, but there isn't currently a very effective way to determine where we stand in that regard. How can we make public policy based on that? What we do know is that hospitals are on the verge of failing and the unvaccinated make up the vast majority of COVID patients. We know that there are more children being affected. We know that the vaccine has been administered to many millions of people and even if every VAERS report were legit and directly tied to the vaccine it would still be far safer than the virus itself. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2021 17:12:44 GMT -6
I don't think it's too hard to recognize the difference between this vaccine and others. mRNA has never been used in humans until now....no full FDA approval....vaers reports like we've never seen(I know some of you guys hate that but it isn't going away 😉) credible doctors and scientist that have concerns. How many other vaccines are mandated for an illness someone has already had and recovered from? How many other vaccines have been required to go into a grocery store? This is not normal. For the record, I've taken every other vaccine in my life except for this one...even a flu shot. I was in an interesting position that I never got chicken pox as a kid. So, when the vaccine came out when I was around 18, I got it. I was the only kid I knew growing up that didn't catch chicken pox. Guess how many of my friends that had chickenpox got the chickenpox vaccine once it came out...ZERO. This whole issue would go a lot better if the proper consideration were given to natural immunity. When it isn't even considered people are rightfully skeptical. Why not consider how many people have natural immunity and add that in with your vaccination rate to get a better idea of where we actually stand in regards to herd immunity? This is not normal because we are in a situation that isn't normal. Arkansas was down to 12 available ICU beds as of two days ago. Texas is out of beds in a number of places and is scrambling to recruit medical staff from out of state. Mississippi is setting up makeshift medical facilities in parking garages. I don't think anyone is actually disregarding natural immunity, but there isn't currently a very effective way to determine where we stand in that regard. How can we make public policy based on that? What we do know is that hospitals are on the verge of failing and the unvaccinated make up the vast majority of COVID patients. We know that there are more children being affected. We know that the vaccine has been administered to many millions of people and even if every VAERS report were legit and directly tied to the vaccine it would still be far safer than the virus itself. The wife just said agencies are advertising for ICU RNs at $230 an hour! Should have gone to nursing school. |
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Post by ericn on Aug 12, 2021 17:14:11 GMT -6
You need to add your COVID was genotyped, if you don’t know the Varient you had you don’t know what any natural immunity will be effective against and not based on what someone “knows” but by testing. For a virus like this with the unvaccinated numbers of those who had Alpha it’s a pretty good bet the virus will adapt to at the very least be spread by those who have natural anti bodies. Remember natural anti bodies and the immune system in general is very individual and the ability from person to person will vary. Well stated. I always appreciate your balanced and impartial statements Eric! Well thank you & blame that vary diverse group of friends I have gathered over the years. |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 12, 2021 17:16:18 GMT -6
This is not normal because we are in a situation that isn't normal. Arkansas was down to 12 available ICU beds as of two days ago. Texas is out of beds in a number of places and is scrambling to recruit medical staff from out of state. Mississippi is setting up makeshift medical facilities in parking garages. I don't think anyone is actually disregarding natural immunity, but there isn't currently a very effective way to determine where we stand in that regard. How can we make public policy based on that? What we do know is that hospitals are on the verge of failing and the unvaccinated make up the vast majority of COVID patients. We know that there are more children being affected. We know that the vaccine has been administered to many millions of people and even if every VAERS report were legit and directly tied to the vaccine it would still be far safer than the virus itself. The wife just said agencies are advertising for ICU RNs at $230 an hour! Should have gone to nursing school. Wow! Well, if we don't get our collective act together you may still have time. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 17:48:23 GMT -6
Same question - when the FDA approves these in the next few months will the objection cease? Not sure if you were speaking to me or not Matt, but I have no "objection". If you want to take it - Awesome! For me - I am not convinced yet. Too much dis-information and politics and BS involved. Not sure if an accurate assessment is even possible at this point. At least for me. so why bring up the fda? FDA approval apparently isn’t what makes you trust or mistrust it. |
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2021 18:15:38 GMT -6
Not sure if you were speaking to me or not Matt, but I have no "objection". If you want to take it - Awesome! For me - I am not convinced yet. Too much dis-information and politics and BS involved. Not sure if an accurate assessment is even possible at this point. At least for me. so why bring up the fda? FDA approval apparently isn’t what makes you trust or mistrust it. Because Ehren asked a specific question about why it was different than traditional vaccines like flu, shingles, etc.. That's the only reason I brought it up. Let's allow differing views without the need to belittle or berate or get defensive. We'll all get through this with a better understanding and hopefully healthier!! <thumbsup> BTW - any thoughts on Antibody Dependant Enhancement and the apparent scrambling that the latest reportings are stirring up? Malone refers to it (ADE) as being referred to as "a vaccinologists worst nightmare". Still trying to wrap my mind around it. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 12, 2021 18:27:48 GMT -6
I’m still not sure I understand. So the minute the fda approves it, we can treat it like other vaccines? If that’s the case you and I are in complete agreement. Identical views.
I don’t think ADE has anything to do with the latest test reports. I think it has everything to do with delta having a mutation on the spike protein. ADE is caused by antibodies either not fully neutralizing a virus or even facilitating their entry to cells. If that’s the case people who had antibodies to the previous generation - like what happens in dengue fever - would become more ill than people who didn’t. And that would be true for both previously infected and vaccinated because the vaccine induced spikes are identical to the virus spike.
Instead we have people who are previously infected and vaccinated becoming ill at lower rates, and hospitalization and death happening almost exclusively among the unvaccinated.
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Post by Quint on Aug 12, 2021 18:34:08 GMT -6
Dude is an embarrassment to my alma mater. Fortunately he ain't an Aggie, just teaches there. Nice. I'm an Aggie myself. 01' |
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Post by ehrenebbage on Aug 12, 2021 18:45:19 GMT -6
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Post by drbill on Aug 12, 2021 19:38:12 GMT -6
I’m still not sure I understand. So the minute the fda approves it, we can treat it like other vaccines? If that’s the case you and I are in complete agreement. Identical views. . Sure. But I think that at this point, they are going to have to go a bit further than fast track approving it in 2 months so that they can silence the nay-sayers. They have VAERS to deal with, and also the long term issues that have been brought up. They need to sort it all out - preferably without profit as the primary motive. Saving lives is great. Saving lives and doing no harm is better. The fact that the "official" medical experts have been changing their minds all over the place on Covid matters clouds the issues considerably. One day they tell us to mask, the next day don't. Then you have to lock down. Uh....locking down isn't working. Now you must get vaccinated and then you don't have to wear a mask or be locked down. Oops, you still need to wear masks after you get vaccinated. But you won't get Covid. Wait, you MIGHT get Covid, but you won't get sick. Ummm, maybe we need more lockdowns. Uh-oh, more break through cases - but now you're only going to get a little sick. OK, OK, we were wrong - breakthrough's are real. But it's still 95% effective. No wait, 68%. Oops, lower...... OK. New solution - it's the unvaccinated people's fault. (Couldn't be Wuhan.....Fauci told me so....) Right now we have pro-vax doctors saying "it's perfectly OK for everyone - including children and pregnant women" when it's in an experimental emergency use provision. And on the other side the contrary opinion - I say "contrary", because MANY of these folks are very PRO Vax, and have been involved with vaccines their entire professional lives - saying that THIS vaccine rollout (not all vaccines like the true anti-vaxxers think) needs to be stopped ASAP. Then we have the fringes - oh the fringes.....the insane crazies saying unvaccinated folks need to be locked up in FEMA camps. And on the other end the equally crazy saying that the vaccine makers / pushers are the agents of satan and doing the bidding of the illuminati.  Somewhere, SOMEwhere, there might be some truth. But this has become so politicized that it's almost impossible to eek it out. The mainstream media, the internet, social media and the "look at me, look at me I'm smart" crowd who are insistent on making their mark are making things beyond insane. Then, there's the obvious outright lies by both sides.... Sigh.... The CDC and other health organizations are not generating credibility with me. Where are the VAERS vaccine death autopsies? Let's either get those ruled out by impartial medical examiners or stop the vaccines. One or the other, I really don't care which way it turns out. I'd just like to see truth, and at this point, pretty much the last place I will hunt for that is in our government. I don't care if we're talking about the current administration or the prior one. Trust is not something either one endears. The government doesn't have a very stellar record when it comes to telling the truth. So this is the BS we have to sift through... I'm not taking anyone's word for it. Not yours, not t-rumps, not b-idens, not the CDC's, not the conspiracy kooks. What DOES resonate with me is caring doctors, who are battling it out on the front lines - saving lives and willing to help people BEFORE they have to be admitted to the hospital. Those guys/gals generally resonate a vibe of truth more than the - but look at this peer reviewed study guys who have never treated a Covid patient. I'm not sure how you can fully approve a treatment without long term studies. But hey, I'm no medical Dr - maybe there is a legit way, but I'm not aware of it. Look forward to viable, time tested vaccines, more detailed info on how to boost one's immune system (pretty good on that if you care to look), and treatments for folks that got it, but are not deathly ill yet. (These seem to be on the cusp of the horizon. Hopefully.) My search for the answers, Aug. 12, 2021.... |
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