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Post by Johnkenn on Apr 11, 2014 9:47:21 GMT -6
Are there any hardliners here? Are software reverbs as good as $1500 and under hardware units? Just looking at older Lexicon units and wondering whether they were worth the trouble.
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Post by popmann on Apr 11, 2014 10:43:18 GMT -6
Depends on the use.
Lexi's are the easier replacements, IME...I kept mine for so long because I owned it and never need more than one instance. That said, it was never "the reason" I integrated hardware.
My Auxes have been mostly sitting on three things for a decade now--all the time, during tracking, they get parameters tweaked during mixing, but--long reverb (PCM91), med room reverb (KSP8), and stereo tape delay (KSP8)...when I was mixing hardware I had other multiFX units used for stacked up shit--but, that stuff is easily replaced by plugs, so disregard those. The PCM91 and other Lexis are what everyone shoots for--that lush fake ass reverb that you hear as reverb. You don't have to look that far to equal that in software. Meanwhile, the KSP8....I can't seem to find equivalents. I've spent many a night with various softwares with headphones on...trying to reverse engineer it...the tape delay--EchoBoy will come closest. I never bought it, because until I can replace the KSP reverbs, I might as well use it for the tape echo. So...the reverbs have a very unique quality. Not only are they true stereo input matrix (which wasn't unique for their time, but seems like fucking hens teeth in software)...but, they do something odd with the phase of their signal. It's literally like no matter what software, the KSP8 is bigger, THINNER and wider...which translates into a sense of dimension and space I can't seem to get in software. It also somehow doesn't seem to screw with the phase of the direct signal--where IRs do...particularly if you then mess with their phase in order to get the same width.
I am mixing some of my own stuff now....where I have more time to experiment--I literally worked with software reverbs the whole tracking process...because I had a theory that it's what I get used to hearing, therefore it's what's "right" at mix time. Nope. As soon as I compared the KSP8 room and delay--everything developed a third dimension. It's subtle. I'm not sure I'd recommend someone go out and get used to working with tools that will be a PIA. But, it does kind of miff me that as hard as I try, I simply can't do it with software....yet.
I would NOT say old Lexis are worth the trouble. But, then--maybe I'm nota lover of the Lexi sound...it's a great vocal reverb. That's it. Oh...and steel guitar. But, it's a one trick pony...and in the panned back view, unless you're making a George Michaels cover record, the sound of the vocal reverb is mostly not a big factor--where the virtual room you place the band and drums in IS...particularly with the assumption that tracks are recorded at home and small studios.
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Post by svart on Apr 11, 2014 11:32:27 GMT -6
I never really liked Lexicons, although I have had a few and still own an old LXP15. They don't even begin to sound realistic, but they are great for what they do well, which is dense ambiance, which I love on vocals.
However, my absolute favorite has been the TC M-one. Some of the old Sonys are nice too.
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 11, 2014 12:36:56 GMT -6
I never really liked Lexicons, although I have had a few and still own an old LXP15. They don't even begin to sound realistic, but they are great for what they do well, which is dense ambiance, which I love on vocals. However, my absolute favorite has been the TC M-one. Some of the old Sonys are nice too. This has me thinking I should try my TC Nova system on my AUX on my board. Hmmm...let me get my manual. |
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 11, 2014 12:44:30 GMT -6
Maybe not...
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 11, 2014 13:29:29 GMT -6
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Post by Martin John Butler on Apr 11, 2014 13:50:56 GMT -6
I'd used the Lexicon reverbs for a decade every day. I'd used UAD verb and others for a long time. To me, the UAD EMT 140 just feels like hardware, and does what I need every time. I use the ReLab XL480, but the've tweaked it beyond the Lex, and I like that too. The Lex is luxe, but fake ass, like Popmann says. They're a great vocal tool though. I'd like to have both, my UAD plug EMT 140 and a Bricasti, mix and match software/hardware. I can do without it though. If I want clean and real, the Exponential can get you there.
In my opinion, in this case, I'd say hardware's not worth the hassle, there are some beautiful plug-in reverbs available that will definitely get you where you want to go. Want real-ish, the Exponential's fine, want vibe, UAD EMT 140, big vocal, Lexi plug's fine.
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 11, 2014 17:06:08 GMT -6
lxp 15ll, i had Jim Williams do his thing to it for shits and giggles, when i listened to it, i wasnt laughing, bad arse!
I opened up the hood before and after he did his thing, he changed a ton of shit out to make it sound so good, ugh ohh, i feel a cliche coming on....buuurrrrrp it's that lexicon thing with the blanket taken off the speakers....excuse me 8)
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Post by channelcat on Apr 11, 2014 17:23:07 GMT -6
What are you guys using for reverb during tracking, hardware or software? I'm kicking around the idea of picking up an Eventide 2016, mostly to have a decent, zero-latency option for vocals.
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Post by popmann on Apr 11, 2014 17:28:46 GMT -6
I've posted before about how to use native plugs for monitoring in a cue. The reverb itself isn't zero latency, but the vocal is...and slightly latent reverb is simply...um--all reverb.
I'll tell you that I HAVE hardware--and I still use it as an IO plug in through the software mixer, so I don't have to switch configs for tracking and mixing. I'm a PICKY whiny mofo when it comes to my cue...and I'm not slightly bothered by doing this. that said--I tend to only do reverb on a vocal cue for a ballad these days.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 17:29:19 GMT -6
ksp8's are impossible to find. I remember trying to use the LiveMode on my K2600xs to use the KDFX processing. It always sounded great to my inexperienced ears. I still have my K2661, but i never found a KSP8 for sale anywhere every time I looked. Those are great, although rare, boxes.
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Post by channelcat on Apr 11, 2014 17:48:47 GMT -6
I've posted before about how to use native plugs for monitoring in a cue. The reverb itself isn't zero latency, but the vocal is...and slightly latent reverb is simply...um--all reverb. I'll tell you that I HAVE hardware--and I still use it as an IO plug in through the software mixer, so I don't have to switch configs for tracking and mixing. I'm a PICKY whiny mofo when it comes to my cue...and I'm not slightly bothered by doing this. that said--I tend to only do reverb on a vocal cue for a ballad these days. Thanks, Popmann! I'm coming from a TDM system, where I'd usually just throw the 2016 plug on the vocals and send it back out to a Furman HDS-6 rig. I figured with native reverb plugs it'd basically just be like a fixed pre-delay. I'll be sure to search for your previous post on the subject. |
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Post by popmann on Apr 11, 2014 17:59:21 GMT -6
Really? They come up on Gearslutz pretty regularly. But, yes--they're special. I wish now I could find the analog expansion card for short'ish dollars--mine has the ADAT IO and stock 4x4 analog...for nearly a decade I ran 44/48 over ADAT...now, I'm down to two stereo instances because I've got to have it hooked up analog--I got sick or reconfiguring Cubase external FX when I changed sample rates...now, it's the same--44, 48, 88.2, 96--all defined and happy in all my mix templates. They made a card that gave it another 4x4 analog so you could use all 8 channels...I've seen units for sale WITH the cards, but I just don't want to go through the hassle of buying another one and swapping cards and reselling. Here's one with remote locally here: nashville.craigslist.org/msg/4415159052.html FWIW...I've been tempted to buy the remote.... |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2014 18:56:52 GMT -6
Considering how old they are, i'm surprised they cost as much as they do. their K2600's are pretty cheap because they're so dated.
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Post by popmann on Apr 11, 2014 21:53:01 GMT -6
2600 are antiques-the ksp8 was some years later. And...seeing the point of this thread, there is something special about the unit. Anyone mixing analog can likely get by with JUST a ksp8 and maybe some kind of Lexi. I know that's about all I used for years with digital hardware.
I have seen them for less on Purple Site...that guy has had that sitting a while because he asking too much. I didn't pay that much YEARS ago used.
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 12, 2014 8:09:08 GMT -6
Nothing has ever replaced an EMT 140 or a well designed chamber for me. I hate the chorusing and pitch shifting in Lexicons because they really screw up performers' intonation. I used to use a Sony DPS-R7 outboard but today prefer the waves or TL Space EMT convolutions, EMT on Oxford and PhoenixVerb.
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Post by RicFoxx on Apr 12, 2014 10:30:14 GMT -6
I never really liked Lexicons, although I have had a few and still own an old LXP15. They don't even begin to sound realistic, but they are great for what they do well, which is dense ambiance, which I love on vocals. However, my absolute favorite has been the TC M-one. Some of the old Sonys are nice too. Picked one up on EBay for $180 to use for cue verb on console! Seemed like a deal. |
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Post by Bob Olhsson on Apr 12, 2014 10:55:19 GMT -6
Lexicons are great for selling more studio time fixing vocals!
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