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Post by timcampbell on Jan 21, 2021 5:44:31 GMT -6
Is this done electronically? Isn't that the same as just adding eq to the mic? Outboard eq's can often be less of a compromise than a quick fix electronically within the mic. Perhaps he has just tweaked Neumann's original noise reduction idea of having a capsule with a high frequency lift and then applying a high cut filter.
It reminds me of how many times we have had shootouts here of clones compared to originals where if a bit of eq were applied they would sound identical but instead they were rejected outright because the idea of applying eq was somehow abhorrent.
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Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2021 7:20:26 GMT -6
That went completely over my head. LOL Understandably. You have to be: 1. Old, 2. American You're kidding right? These were universal things that people other us USAF base brats saw on a regular basis. And yes, I'm old-ish. LOL |
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Post by cserrano on Jan 21, 2021 7:38:44 GMT -6
OK, the shootout is becoming more involved. I got to hang out with Carlos for awhile today, and let me just say again what a nice person he is. I mean, super easy to communicate with, and very generous. I had a couple of things to discuss with him about my mic: - I was having trouble with the shockmount binding up when screwing it on the mic, but Carlos set me straight and now it's totally fine.
- The badge on my mic popped off when I was wrestling it out of the locked-up shockmount at my house. He just swapped me out a new body tube with the badge on it. Looks great now. This wouldn't have happened if I'd used the shockmount differently from the beginning.
Really the biggest issue I was having, though, was that the mic was a little brighter than I wanted it. According to Carlos, my particular mic had been tuned to be just a tad brighter than a vintage U87. Today, he re-tuned the circuit to make the mic a tad darker than a vintage U87. I'm hoping to plug it in tonight to hear it. The bad news about this is that I've already recorded 3 songs with the original circuit: 3 lead vocals and two acoustic guitars on every song. For you guys to hear the freshly tuned (darker) mic, I'm going to have to re-record some stuff or just record another song. Maybe I'll just record another song, actually. That makes more sense. Then you'll be able to hear a brighter Serrano 87 and a darker Serrano 87. See which one you like more. The good news about this is that it means Carlos can tune your Serrano 87 to your liking. If you want to order a darker 87, he can do that. If you want a brighter one, he can do that instead. I think he's still deciding the most efficient way to accommodate this kind of request, so I'll invite him back in on this thread to discuss it with everybody. cserrano : I hope I'm not misrepresenting anything above. P.S.: And guys, he's starting to work on his next mic now...  P.P.S.: And seriously, great customer support all around on this situation. Couldn't have asked for a better outcome. Mark, thanks so much for the kind words and for sharing your recordings! Most Serrano 87 sound samples that you’ve heard are a little brighter than a vintage U87 but not as bright at the current U87 AI. From this point on I will be sending Serrano 87s to match the more commonly circulating vintage U87s. However, I am happy to accommodate any request to make it brighter or darker - just contact me before or right after you order. For clarity’s sake, doing this does not affect the signature sound of the vintage U87. All of that great character remains, either way. Because some people might not realize what they prefer until they have their Serrano 87, I’m offering each customer a one-time “tuning” for free. You just have to pay for shipping. Many people have a preference and want their U87 to have darker or brighter top end and I understand the desire to have your microphone sound the way you prefer. Carlos |
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Post by cserrano on Jan 21, 2021 7:40:39 GMT -6
Is this done electronically? Isn't that the same as just adding eq to the mic? Outboard eq's can often be less of a compromise than a quick fix electronically within the mic. Perhaps he has just tweaked Neumann's original noise reduction idea of having a capsule with a high frequency lift and then applying a high cut filter.
It reminds me of how many times we have had shootouts here of clones compared to originals where if a bit of eq were applied they would sound identical but instead they were rejected outright because the idea of applying eq was somehow abhorrent.
The Neumann U87 has negative feedback circuitry (EQ) that is responsible for some of the tonal characteristics. It’s part of what gives the U87 its signature sound. Some people have played around with completely removing that circuitry but this would be too drastic in my opinion - the mic would be extremely bright. The values of some of the capacitors, specifically C6 can be adjusted. Most vintage Neumann U87s use 220pf at C6. But I have seen a Neumann schematic from 1968 that shows 870pf that suggests a very attenuated top end. But most vintage U87s out there, and the replicas, are modeled after 220pf at C6. However on replicas/clones, because genuine Neumann parts like the capsule and transformer are not being used, C6 has to be adjusted to compensate for the how the transformer and capsule affect the top end frequencies. I agree with Tim that adjusting C6 is pretty much the same as using EQ. But I also understand the psychology behind, “WHAT? I don’t want to apply EQ! I just want it to sound "perfect" without me touching it!”  Carlos |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 21, 2021 8:23:48 GMT -6
Hmm, I keep waiting for any of my recordings to sound perfect without me touching it ! Although, having Tim’s cap in my diy c12: ain’t too shabby! |
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Post by ragan on Jan 21, 2021 10:25:25 GMT -6
OK, the shootout is becoming more involved. I got to hang out with Carlos for awhile today, and let me just say again what a nice person he is. I mean, super easy to communicate with, and very generous. I had a couple of things to discuss with him about my mic: - I was having trouble with the shockmount binding up when screwing it on the mic, but Carlos set me straight and now it's totally fine.
- The badge on my mic popped off when I was wrestling it out of the locked-up shockmount at my house. He just swapped me out a new body tube with the badge on it. Looks great now. This wouldn't have happened if I'd used the shockmount differently from the beginning.
Really the biggest issue I was having, though, was that the mic was a little brighter than I wanted it. According to Carlos, my particular mic had been tuned to be just a tad brighter than a vintage U87. Today, he re-tuned the circuit to make the mic a tad darker than a vintage U87. I'm hoping to plug it in tonight to hear it. The bad news about this is that I've already recorded 3 songs with the original circuit: 3 lead vocals and two acoustic guitars on every song. For you guys to hear the freshly tuned (darker) mic, I'm going to have to re-record some stuff or just record another song. Maybe I'll just record another song, actually. That makes more sense. Then you'll be able to hear a brighter Serrano 87 and a darker Serrano 87. See which one you like more. The good news about this is that it means Carlos can tune your Serrano 87 to your liking. If you want to order a darker 87, he can do that. If you want a brighter one, he can do that instead. I think he's still deciding the most efficient way to accommodate this kind of request, so I'll invite him back in on this thread to discuss it with everybody. cserrano : I hope I'm not misrepresenting anything above. P.S.: And guys, he's starting to work on his next mic now... P.P.S.: And seriously, great customer support all around on this situation. Couldn't have asked for a better outcome. Mark, thanks so much for the kind words and for sharing your recordings! Most Serrano 87 sound samples that you’ve heard are a little brighter than a vintage U87 but not as bright at the current U87 AI. From this point on I will be sending Serrano 87s to match the more commonly circulating vintage U87s. However, I am happy to accommodate any request to make it brighter or darker - just contact me before or right after you order. For clarity’s sake, doing this does not affect the signature sound of the vintage U87. All of that great character remains, either way. Because some people might not realize what they prefer until they have their Serrano 87, I’m offering each customer a one-time “tuning” for free. You just have to pay for shipping. Many people have a preference and want their U87 to have darker or brighter top end and I understand the desire to have your microphone sound the way you prefer. Carlos Wow. <thumbsup> |
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Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2021 11:15:05 GMT -6
Hmm, I keep waiting for any of my recordings to sound perfect without me touching it ! Although, having Tim’s cap in my diy c12: ain’t too shabby! sometimes the most perfect recordings we can make are the ones we DON'T touch. Just a great mic, best possible preamp combination, and direct into the converter. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 21, 2021 12:47:20 GMT -6
I want to hear the samples!!! Give me samples!!!! |
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Post by chessparov on Jan 21, 2021 14:15:35 GMT -6
Thanks again Mark and Carlos! Chris |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jan 21, 2021 15:26:51 GMT -6
I want to hear the samples!!! Give me samples!!!! They're coming! Sorry for the delay, Brice!! Hopefully tomorrow or Saturday... |
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Post by Ward on Jan 21, 2021 17:46:38 GMT -6
I want to hear the samples!!! Give me samples!!!! I should have mine by the first of the month, Carlos is doign a middle tuning on it to be very sinilar to my 1973 - which is my favorite of my 87s. I'll be doing some comparisons! And supplying files. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2021 7:23:14 GMT -6
Awesome guys!! I'm really looking forward these! I love U87s.
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2021 7:23:46 GMT -6
I want to hear the samples!!! Give me samples!!!! They're coming! Sorry for the delay, Brice!! Hopefully tomorrow or Saturday... Take your time!! I was just joking. It's awesome of you to do this. |
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Post by lpedrum on Jan 22, 2021 9:15:19 GMT -6
Awesome guys!! I'm really looking forward these! I love U87s. I’ve rarely used an Neumann 87 so I’m not sure what it’s strengths are. I had use of one for a day last year and thought it sounded thin and uninspiring but it was the newer model. Is the 87 simply a versatile workhorse or is it the first thing you reach for on certain sources? Where does it really shine? I’m specifically curious if it’s good on clean guitar amps. Would this Serrano 87 be good to recommend to singers that are looking to upgrade their home studio vocals from their Rodes and Audio Technicas? |
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 22, 2021 10:22:08 GMT -6
Not sure about newer 87's, but my vintage one is my favorite mic for acoustic guitar. I also love it on vocals, guitar amp, individual percussion elements, and pretty much anything else I would single mic. It's just a great all around microphone!
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Post by drbill on Jan 22, 2021 11:37:52 GMT -6
It's just a great all around microphone! Ditto. I've used em extensively on vocalists of all shapes and sizes, acoustic guitar, electric guitar, cello, drum overs, toms, double bass, saxes, trombone, VOICEOVER!,,,,,and on and on. Pretty much anything. A great workhorse mic. |
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2021 12:08:31 GMT -6
Awesome guys!! I'm really looking forward these! I love U87s. I’ve rarely used an Neumann 87 so I’m not sure what it’s strengths are. I had use of one for a day last year and thought it sounded thin and uninspiring but it was the newer model. Is the 87 simply a versatile workhorse or is it the first thing you reach for on certain sources? Where does it really shine? I’m specifically curious if it’s good on clean guitar amps. Would this Serrano 87 be good to recommend to singers that are looking to upgrade their home studio vocals from their Rodes and Audio Technicas? I find 87s to be great on acoustic guitars, vocals, overheads. For me it's one of those mics that's always up for overdubs. I mean it's probably one of the most used vocal mics of all time! It fits a lot of singers and it always finds its place in a mix. It wouldn't be my first pick on amps, though it can sound great but I'd rather have a ribbon or a 67ish mic. I like my TLM67 better for amps. Mine's an 87ai and there are definitely some duds, but mine sounds good. I was at a studio the other day and my 87ai was picked over Vintage U87, U77 and U47. The Vintage 87s in my experience round off the transients a bit more, which works really really well on acoustic instruments. The ai does get hard, mine is modded but is still a bit harder than most vintage ones I've used but then it does have a little extra clarity, or bite that sometimes works. I listened to the Searrano examples and it does sound very close, I think I still favored the vintage one a little bit but that could be me being biased. They definitely sound closer together than some 87s I've used. And yes I would think it would be a great recommendation for singers, 87s don't have those harsh highs that can pile up like some cheaper condensers, they are pretty forgiving as far as placement and they have some great sounding polar patterns. The Omni on a nice 87 is wonderful for intimate vocals. |
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 12:27:02 GMT -6
A great 87 is the ok-est mic there is. It will work on absolutely everything, every time, with an acceptable result even if it doesn't have any voodoo magic in the capture.
Most Dependable mics, ever. Well, tied with KM84s
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Post by bricejchandler on Jan 22, 2021 12:43:39 GMT -6
A great 87 is the ok-est mic there is. It will work on absolutely everything, every time, with an acceptable result even if it doesn't have any voodoo magic in the capture. Most Dependable mics, ever. Well, tied with KM84s and KM86s! |
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Post by drbill on Jan 22, 2021 12:52:42 GMT -6
A great 87 is the ok-est mic there is. It will work on absolutely everything tied with KM84s and KM86s! THIS!!! I can wholeheartedly agree with. Neumann is (was?) the greatest all around microphone manufacturer of all time. Luckily I have multiples of all of them. (87 excepted). I REALLY want to order a pair of the Serrano's today, but I'm not ready yet. I've got plenty of mics, but I still feel like these would be a great addition. My wife would wholeheartedly not agree. . And I can see her point, but....I mean, come ON....it's a great mic!! What's better than that? |
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Post by teejay on Jan 22, 2021 13:46:01 GMT -6
THIS!!! I can wholeheartedly agree with. Neumann is (was?) the greatest all around microphone manufacturer of all time. Luckily I have multiples of all of them. (87 excepted). I REALLY want to order a pair of the Serrano's today, but I'm not ready yet. I've got plenty of mics, but I still feel like these would be a great addition. My wife would wholeheartedly not agree. . And I can see her point, but....I mean, come ON....it's a great mic!! What's better than that? A happy wife. |
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Post by drumsound on Jan 22, 2021 14:42:20 GMT -6
Awesome guys!! I'm really looking forward these! I love U87s. I’ve rarely used an Neumann 87 so I’m not sure what it’s strengths are. I had use of one for a day last year and thought it sounded thin and uninspiring but it was the newer model. Is the 87 simply a versatile workhorse or is it the first thing you reach for on certain sources? Where does it really shine? I’m specifically curious if it’s good on clean guitar amps. Would this Serrano 87 be good to recommend to singers that are looking to upgrade their home studio vocals from their Rodes and Audio Technicas? I'm gonna side with Nick, DrB, Brice et al. The U87 is an incredibly useful mic on many sources. Part of what makes it great is how it fits into a mix, or production. In solo it's rare that it sounds like the greatest thing you've ever heard, but when the whole track is playing so often it just works. It one of my 2 favorite percussion mics (shakers, tambourines, etc) can be super cool on clean electric guitar. Often works for 'non-feature' acoustic guitar. Mono overhead (I've only got one) see some use around my place. I generally don't give a shit about 'matching mics to preamps' that seems to be the rage the last 10-15 years, but my biggest exception to that rule is the U87 on vocals. I had a VoxBox for years and did a boatload of singers with the 87 and the VB. Then I got rid of it and some of my romance with the 87 went with it. Even the very nice Aurora GTQ2 that replaced the VB didn't excite me with the 87. It still worked, but some of the 'special' was gone. Last year I got a Useful Arts SFP60 tube pre, and it and the 87 are getting along swimingly! I mentioned this to a friend who has a similar vintage U87 to mine and his comment was "yeah, 87s seem to love tubes." |
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Post by ericn on Jan 22, 2021 15:28:29 GMT -6
I’ve rarely used an Neumann 87 so I’m not sure what it’s strengths are. I had use of one for a day last year and thought it sounded thin and uninspiring but it was the newer model. Is the 87 simply a versatile workhorse or is it the first thing you reach for on certain sources? Where does it really shine? I’m specifically curious if it’s good on clean guitar amps. Would this Serrano 87 be good to recommend to singers that are looking to upgrade their home studio vocals from their Rodes and Audio Technicas? I'm gonna side with Nick, DrB, Brice et al. The U87 is an incredibly useful mic on many sources. Part of what makes it great is how it fits into a mix, or production. In solo it's rare that it sounds like the greatest thing you've ever heard, but when the whole track is playing so often it just works. It one of my 2 favorite percussion mics (shakers, tambourines, etc) can be super cool on clean electric guitar. Often works for 'non-feature' acoustic guitar. Mono overhead (I've only got one) see some use around my place. I generally don't give a shit about 'matching mics to preamps' that seems to be the rage the last 10-15 years, but my biggest exception to that rule is the U87 on vocals. I had a VoxBox for years and did a boatload of singers with the 87 and the VB. Then I got rid of it and some of my romance with the 87 went with it. Even the very nice Aurora GTQ2 that replaced the VB didn't excite me with the 87. It still worked, but some of the 'special' was gone. Last year I got a Useful Arts SFP60 tube pre, and it and the 87 are getting along swimingly! I mentioned this to a friend who has a similar vintage U87 to mine and his comment was "yeah, 87s seem to love tubes." Yeah one of these days I’m going to have to come north and we are going to have to do a record together. |
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 22, 2021 16:51:13 GMT -6
I’ve rarely used an Neumann 87 so I’m not sure what it’s strengths are. I had use of one for a day last year and thought it sounded thin and uninspiring but it was the newer model. Is the 87 simply a versatile workhorse or is it the first thing you reach for on certain sources? Where does it really shine? I’m specifically curious if it’s good on clean guitar amps. Would this Serrano 87 be good to recommend to singers that are looking to upgrade their home studio vocals from their Rodes and Audio Technicas? I'm gonna side with Nick, DrB, Brice et al. The U87 is an incredibly useful mic on many sources. Part of what makes it great is how it fits into a mix, or production. In solo it's rare that it sounds like the greatest thing you've ever heard, but when the whole track is playing so often it just works. It one of my 2 favorite percussion mics (shakers, tambourines, etc) can be super cool on clean electric guitar. Often works for 'non-feature' acoustic guitar. Mono overhead (I've only got one) see some use around my place. I generally don't give a shit about 'matching mics to preamps' that seems to be the rage the last 10-15 years, but my biggest exception to that rule is the U87 on vocals. I had a VoxBox for years and did a boatload of singers with the 87 and the VB. Then I got rid of it and some of my romance with the 87 went with it. Even the very nice Aurora GTQ2 that replaced the VB didn't excite me with the 87. It still worked, but some of the 'special' was gone. Last year I got a Useful Arts SFP60 tube pre, and it and the 87 are getting along swimingly! I mentioned this to a friend who has a similar vintage U87 to mine and his comment was "yeah, 87s seem to love tubes." I use my 87 with an SFP30 and I love it as well! Seems to be a great combo! |
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Post by Ward on Jan 22, 2021 19:08:59 GMT -6
I'm gonna side with Nick, DrB, Brice et al. for those following, I'm "et al" by the way.  |
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