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Post by keymod on Aug 27, 2020 3:33:38 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Aug 27, 2020 6:04:34 GMT -6
Many thanks for contributing this article! Wiring was a bitch for my studio . . . starting with the entirety of the electrical install. So I had an experienced expert electrician start from the ground (literally 7 grounds) and work his way up! So then we ran BX AC90 12/3 everywhere . . . 27 circuits in the control room, 8 to each recording room. Wait, what has this to do with AVB?Stay with me . . . So with clean electrical everywhere, running everything else was much safer and less worrisome when in come to grounds and provisions. Now I was able to run cat-5 and cat-6 as well as analog snakes and HDMI cabling to every room back from the central patchbays and computers with ease and peace of mind. And thus, AVB is even easier, when necessary.  |
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Post by keymod on Aug 27, 2020 6:49:51 GMT -6
AFAIK, AVB will work wirelessly as well, although maybe not without some worries.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 27, 2020 10:27:03 GMT -6
Wireless will add to latency, but could work yes.
Ethernet is the way of the future.
My studio has the converters in the basement. Ravenna net though instead of AVB because everyone is coming up with their own protocol..but tie lines go from concert hall to basement. Then through fiber switches up 2 more stories and then into a switch. Computer connects to switch as does another interface by it for output in the control room. It's great.
Now it's the battles of protocols.
Dante, AVB, Ravenna, Ect...
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Post by svart on Aug 28, 2020 7:22:35 GMT -6
Since ethernet is not a "real-time" protocol, there is inherent latency in the packetization of the data. What are the total latencies you're getting in practice? AVB seems to allow up to 50ms but does not seem to account for the buffering time at either end either. 50ms is way more than can be tolerated for a round-trip monitoring system.
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 28, 2020 14:17:22 GMT -6
5.3ms for Ravenna net is what my PC tells us during recording.
Right not during a mix down im at 15.3ms with plugins and stuff.
This is all at 384kHz too by the way.
Dante is really low as well. I use that for live sound and some other things but not enough to know the latency off the top of my head.
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Post by keymod on Aug 28, 2020 15:09:23 GMT -6
We haven't had any issue with latency during monitoring yet. Our first step was to get the audio signal coming out of the 24Ao from the keyboard room to the control room and into Pro Tools via the 16A. This worked flawlessly, and the recorded Synthogy Ivory Dry C7 sounded fantastic, even with my poor playing. We can also mic the room sound which is being played from the Kurzweil Mk152 and blend that in, if so desired. Of course, this was done with solo piano in mind but that was our goal, as we have a contract to record performances of students' submissions to competitions from a relatively local music school with several dozen pupils.
If we need monitoring, we have the Behringer headphone units hooked up either through the ADAT outputs of the 16A, or through analog matrix outputs from our console. It will be interesting to explore the monitoring issue further as time allows.
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Post by keymod on Sept 17, 2020 4:14:57 GMT -6
I'm curious if AVB can work with Dante, or vice versa?
Anyone make a converter?
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 17, 2020 9:41:47 GMT -6
I'm curious if AVB can work with Dante, or vice versa? Anyone make a converter? Not that I am aware of. Need a different "converter"/interface. Sadly while all these Ethernet protocols are awesome for a lot of reasons, they are all proprietary. That said, the easiest way to get stuff on Dante is via Dante Virtual Sound card. You can then turn a second interface on you computer(assuming you have 2 or more) then you can pipe stuff to dante directly from you computer. So assuming you can get the MOTU stuff to show up in VSC then you'll be good. This is what I do with my monitor controller to get sound from just my Mac to my monitor controller plus the ability to pipe whatever I want from the monitor controller to my main dante controller. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 17, 2020 22:47:38 GMT -6
DVS and MOTU AVB aggregate device works fine.
Someone somewhere mentioned a very expensive method to make Dante and AVB interface directly, haven’t heard any more about it in several years.
I gotta say after 6 years of running MOTU AVB systems, and just recently building some Dante systems, Dante is pretty smart snd automatic and AVB is dumb as a rock, forgets it’s name and underpants depressingly frequently. Certainly I’ll find the bugs in Dante soon enough but it’s a refreshing change.
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 17, 2020 22:56:00 GMT -6
DVS and MOTU AVB aggregate device works fine. Someone somewhere mentioned a very expensive method to make Dante and AVB interface directly, haven’t heard any more about it in several years. I gotta say after 6 years of running MOTU AVB systems, and just recently building some Dante systems, Dante is pretty smart snd automatic and AVB is dumb as a rock, forgets it’s name and underpants depressingly frequently. Certainly I’ll find the bugs in Dante soon enough but it’s a refreshing change. Dante is the king of the AOE Protocols. It's really nice and super bullet proof. I can't even think of a time it's let me down in 7 years or using it. Other things that use it yes, but Dante itself, nope. And it's so easy to use too. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2020 8:46:43 GMT -6
Does Dante compensate for the latency of other units hooked up to it? RME TotalMix and MOTU AVB do not.
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Post by EmRR on Sept 18, 2020 10:09:48 GMT -6
Does Dante compensate for the latency of other units hooked up to it? RME TotalMix and MOTU AVB do not. Off the top of my head, no. My memory says latency is a setting that applies within the entire Dante network, and that's from a buffer perspective, to make sure nothing is receiving data too late. Each switch hop is rated 1mS, virtual sound card has it's own setting that is local. My MBP seems to need at least 3mS, I have it set at 6mS. I believe any 1 switch network defaults to 1/2mS, which has safety margin built in. You can set it lower. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 6:02:57 GMT -6
Does Dante compensate for the latency of other units hooked up to it? RME TotalMix and MOTU AVB do not. Off the top of my head, no. My memory says latency is a setting that applies within the entire Dante network, and that's from a buffer perspective, to make sure nothing is receiving data too late. Each switch hop is rated 1mS, virtual sound card has it's own setting that is local. My MBP seems to need at least 3mS, I have it set at 6mS. I believe any 1 switch network defaults to 1/2mS, which has safety margin built in. You can set it lower. 6ms is a lot! What's the lowest real-world latency in one of these systems? Is Dante possible to get down to 0.2ms as I've seen claimed? |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 20, 2020 7:27:12 GMT -6
Sure. 6mS is the safety margin for my laptop as record unit in a Dante chain via virtual sound card. It showed one ping just over 3mS in the latency analysis window. I’ll try to get screen caps next time the system is running.
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Post by cyrano on Sept 20, 2020 16:34:41 GMT -6
I'm curious if AVB can work with Dante, or vice versa? Anyone make a converter? Not that I am aware of. Need a different "converter"/interface. Sadly while all these Ethernet protocols are awesome for a lot of reasons, they are all proprietary. That said, the easiest way to get stuff on Dante is via Dante Virtual Sound card. You can then turn a second interface on you computer(assuming you have 2 or more) then you can pipe stuff to dante directly from you computer. So assuming you can get the MOTU stuff to show up in VSC then you'll be good. This is what I do with my monitor controller to get sound from just my Mac to my monitor controller plus the ability to pipe whatever I want from the monitor controller to my main dante controller. Dane is proprietary. AVB is open. Anyone can start making AVB gear. AVB is routable, Dante is not. AVB does video, Dante does not. And so on... Dante has a precise evolution plan, signed by Audinate. Most Dante gear works with most other Dante gear. Of course, as a license is needed, it's generally more expensive, but faster to implement. AVB is not much more than a study group. Everybody's wondering when they'll set the next step. Compatibility between brands isn't always optimal. AVB's goals are set a lot higher, as there's no ROI required. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 20, 2020 17:14:39 GMT -6
AVB is routable, Dante is not. I got lost on that one ? |
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Post by Ward on Sept 20, 2020 20:03:20 GMT -6
AVB is routable, Dante is not. I got lost on that one ? Don't worry, you're not alone. I'm happy to admit that I still have a lot to learn, and I am LOVING this thread! Thank you OP and repliers. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Sept 20, 2020 20:08:34 GMT -6
Don't worry, you're not alone. I'm happy to admit that I still have a lot to learn, and I am LOVING this thread! Thank you OP and repliers. He's lost because Dante is infinitely routable. You can send a signal from any Dante device to as many other Dante devices as you have. I too am confused by this statement that it is not routable. |
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Post by EmRR on Sept 20, 2020 20:34:51 GMT -6
Yeah something is missing
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Post by EmRR on Sept 21, 2020 9:38:03 GMT -6
Off the top of my head, no. My memory says latency is a setting that applies within the entire Dante network, and that's from a buffer perspective, to make sure nothing is receiving data too late. Each switch hop is rated 1mS, virtual sound card has it's own setting that is local. My MBP seems to need at least 3mS, I have it set at 6mS. I believe any 1 switch network defaults to 1/2mS, which has safety margin built in. You can set it lower. 6ms is a lot! What's the lowest real-world latency in one of these systems? Is Dante possible to get down to 0.2ms as I've seen claimed? Looking at a Yamaha console view, recommended latency for a single switch network (or 3 daisy chained devices) is 0.25mS. It's a matter of the connected devices hand-off meeting that latency as I understand it. 0.5mS for a 3 switch network or 5 daisy chained devices. 1mS for 8 switches or 10 daisy chained. In my experience so far, it plays more nicely with a switch present. Have had problems making 2 Yamaha consoles see each other without, for instance. |
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Post by Ward on Sept 21, 2020 9:54:59 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2020 12:13:17 GMT -6
AVB is all proprietary to the manufacturer. MOTU has the most complete ecosystem but RME is catching up. Who knows how good the new multichannel RME AVB products are and if they incorporated the FS clock and the ADI-2 Pro analog parts. The Firefaces are pretty much cleaned up lofi but still lofi with a lot of identifiable problems that most of the internet talkers ignore. The MOTU AVB units sound a ton better than them and the Babyface Pro.
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Post by cyrano on Oct 2, 2020 12:37:50 GMT -6
AVB is routable, Dante is not. I got lost on that one ? Dante is made for your own local network. As big as that could be. Traveling over internet needs some sort of network bridge. Dante"s network discovery is dependent on Bonjour/Rendez-vous/ZeroConfig or whatever you want to call it. Local only. It's taken Apple many years to make it routable (and safe) over internet. Bonjour is what allows your printer to just "show up" automagically on your local network. It's awfully nice to have on a small network. AVB is intended for routing over the internet, if needed. It's audio over TCP/IP. Without that Bonjour limitation. No auto-discovery, as that depends on "shouting". If everybody was shouting on the net, the entire net would go deaf. Not as easy, as a tiny bit more configuration is needed. You need to know ip or domain where the other end is residing. A studio setup wouldn't need routing over the internet, typically. I've seen a few AVB setups that route audio and video over the internet. As well for live remote reporting work as for linking studios in different parts of the world. Dante is a practical approach. As in "what can we do today?" AVB is more like "what do we need to include to be future proof?" Logically, not everything in AVB is working today, or works together without a hitch, but there are more features, even if some aren't finished yet. It's for instance possible Audient has plans to include video in a Dante 2.0. I don't know, cause it's a closed plan. AVB is a bit of a mess, but at least it's an open mess. Everybody can mess with it it, without paying, or licensing. RME is betting on AVB for Macs, and Dante for Windows it seems. But Apple seems to have no interest at all in AVB. They even dropped the needed gbit network ports from Macbooks and the USB-C to gbit ethernet adapters of the moment aren't AVB complete. So who knows what will happen? |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 3, 2020 11:36:51 GMT -6
Weird Dante network problem yesterday.
'Enable Sync to External' checked for the Yamaha console which was 'preferred master'. Same setup used with no problems 3 previous times. No Dante warnings from the console display.
Preamp gain trims wouldn't change, 48V couldn't be turned on. Went through a bunch of different console troubleshooting/reboot/scene change procedures. Found some other scenes that had 48V turned on some channels, you could turn it off but not back on. No other symptoms.
Finally pulled the Dante connection, regained control. Plugged it back in, lost that PARTICULAR control. Went into Dante Controller, unchecked 'Enable Sync to External', full control again.
Weird.
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