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Post by jeromemason on Apr 2, 2014 23:17:29 GMT -6
Raised on an SSL 6000E, you definitely knew when you were hitting the sweet spot of that console. John Kerzweg taught me how to find it, and when you were hitting the buss of that console just right it was like the sea parted and all the beautiful euphoric audio would just wash over you, it was beautiful, rewarding, and it actually was kinda fun pushing the faders around and finding it. For me, every mix was different, but finding where the sweet spot in the console was hiding was fun. I've had a summing mixer and used it for a while. It made me feel like the mixes seemed a little more authentic, but after some researching, trial and error, and just fiddling and fiddling with the gain staging I've finally found a point in which you sort of hit a little sweet spot. I was kind of suspicious at first, thinking it was a placebo or something, but when I flipped the mix over to just come out of PT the depth, image, punch, and sweetness was totally gone. I've only really been at this w/o being behind a console for about 2 years now, but finally I think I'm starting to grasp what Maserati and the others that use the hybrids setups are saying. When I learned (yes, I just learned this after over 10 years on PT) how to setup the meters to be post fader I could see exactly what was hitting the inputs. Knowing where my mixer maxes out in dbfs I can actually not fly in the dark on whether or not I'm clipping or hitting it hard enough. Not to mention the addition of the 8 channels of metering in the top of PT 11 was a massive help. I can see collectively just how much level is hitting the mixer and I can firmly say I'm starting to find little sweet spots now. I started a thread a while back about now being able to hear sub freq's and punch through the summing unit like I could when I was just monitoring the mix out of PT w/o the mixer in the chain. Well since now I can see exactly how I'm hitting the thing it's totally flip flopped around, now when I'm hitting at a certain point I can hear more definition and punch on the low end, much more depth, and I hate using the term "width", but what I would call a nice and full spectrum. Anyway, just thought I'd share that, for me it was like rediscovering how to hit a buss on a console just right, and I got all giddy  |
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Post by tonycamphd on Apr 2, 2014 23:35:22 GMT -6
i'm believe i'm familiar with these sweet spots in analog gear of which you speak, i also believe voltage summing is the shit, and these combined sounds are totally non existent in the digital domain, or at least i've never found it there..
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Post by svart on Apr 3, 2014 6:52:06 GMT -6
The resistor networks themselves won't have a sweet spot. Those are pretty linear up into the MHz range, where their leads become inductors and their proximity to the ground plan becomes a capacitor..
However, the make-up amps are sure to have sweet spots based on their design.
What summing unit are you using?
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Post by popmann on Apr 3, 2014 10:36:02 GMT -6
"even"?
All analog gear has a sweet spot. The wider it is the better it is....
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Apr 3, 2014 18:38:32 GMT -6
"even"? All analog gear has a sweet spot. The wider it is the better it is.... This is the biggest reason the Sta is so popular. Ginourmous sweet spot. Can't make it sound bad. |
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 3, 2014 19:48:10 GMT -6
"even"? All analog gear has a sweet spot. The wider it is the better it is.... Well I've been struggling for a good while to find it in that mixer, I was starting to believe it was a lost cause. But after some helpful advice, some of it from you in that thread on gain staging, I finally found where to hit it. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Apr 3, 2014 19:50:32 GMT -6
What unit is it?
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Post by jeromemason on Apr 3, 2014 19:56:19 GMT -6
BLA PM8. The original, not the MKII.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2014 20:53:47 GMT -6
My experience with the tonebuss was the same. Very cool device.
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Post by Johnkenn on May 25, 2014 14:00:12 GMT -6
If I wasn't lazy, I would mix stems into the Burl and then all together in a 2 mix out through the burl again. But I'm kinda lazy.
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Post by jimwilliams on May 26, 2014 10:27:09 GMT -6
Virtual ground sum designs are very different than voltage sum amps. Opamps with inverting inputs or grounded base discrete designs allow better crosstalk specs and don't have 40 db of gain noise and THD added to the mix like older Neve stuff. They instead add noise gain that will stress the THD accuracy and bandwidth with a large number of inputs.
Grounded base designs seem to be able to avoid that problem with the transistor in the opamp feedback loop, they have extremely large gain-bandwidths of over 140 db. Design in transconductance opamps into a grounded base sum amp you then remove the bandwidth limiting that is necessary to stabilize traditional virtual ground sum designs. Bandwidth then is dependent on feedback resistors, not capacitors. With that design a 30 mhz frequency response sum amp is achievable with zero degrees of phase shift, not possible with current sum amp technology. THD and IMD resides at about 2ppm. Noise can be as low as -125 dbu. Crosstalk when sum resistors are properly implimented is -90 dbu at 10k hz, respectable.
The sweet spot for these designs is that place above the noise floor and below clipping, it's rather wide.
THD+noise measurements will show a lowering of THD at higher signal levels, that is because the noise is constant and if you bring the signal further out of the noise floor, THD measurements show improvement, but it may not actually do that.
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Post by tonycamphd on May 26, 2014 10:42:00 GMT -6
Virtual ground sum designs are very different than voltage sum amps. Opamps with inverting inputs or grounded base discrete designs allow better crosstalk specs and don't have 40 db of gain noise and THD added to the mix like older Neve stuff. They instead add noise gain that will stress the THD accuracy and bandwidth with a large number of inputs. Grounded base designs seem to be able to avoid that problem with the transistor in the opamp feedback loop, they have extremely large gain-bandwidths of over 140 db. Design in transconductance opamps into a grounded base sum amp you then remove the bandwidth limiting that is necessary to stabilize traditional virtual ground sum designs. Bandwidth then is dependent on feedback resistors, not capacitors. With that design a 30 mhz frequency response sum amp is achievable with zero degrees of phase shift, not possible with current sum amp technology. THD and IMD resides at about 2ppm. Noise can be as low as -125 dbu. Crosstalk when sum resistors are properly implimented is -90 dbu at 10k hz, respectable. The sweet spot for these designs is that place above the noise floor and below clipping, it's rather wide. THD+noise measurements will show a lowering of THD at higher signal levels, that is because the noise is constant and if you bring the signal further out of the noise floor, THD measurements show improvement, but it may not actually do that. Jim, what was the actual crosstalk spec on your modded Soundcraft delta 200? (the significance of crosstalk spec correlates directly to how wide your stereo mix can potentially sound, right JW?) |
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Post by delcampo on May 26, 2014 19:51:16 GMT -6
If I wasn't lazy, I would mix stems into the Burl and then all together in a 2 mix out through the burl again. But I'm kinda lazy. I know of this laziness you speak of John. But, I encourage you to give it a go! Often do much stem out >HW>B2 & back in. Then mix through the desk w/ buss HW >B2 back in. sometimes tape is in there somewhere but hell, the Burl makes me even more lazy to fire it up than I used to be. My guiding principle of late is if you think about how many gain stages of transformers & tubes some of your favorite music traveled.. seems worth some experiments. It lands up just being good choices/combinations of the tools on hand. Definitely worth some testing! |
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Post by Johnkenn on May 26, 2014 20:23:40 GMT -6
Definitely, definitely! Most of the stuff I'm mixing or working on is ultimately for demo purposes, so I just have been too lazy, but I'm gonna start committing and putting it into my workflow.
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Post by noah shain on May 26, 2014 22:53:25 GMT -6
I use a friggin crazy hybrid setup with 8 passive summing busses and a 1608. I know you've all heard me rant about it before...
BUT!!!!!
When I nail the gain staging and make the right choices with the make up amps...
I can hit a sweet spot with groups of instruments on the passive busses and then sum those suckers on the 1608 in pairs and find a sweet spot on the console and I swear it can be magic.
There's a noise battle when I don't get it right and it IS complex but when I have time and budget I feel like I can get something pretty special happening.
Maybe it's just me listening really hard to hear all the $$ I've spent building this crazy rig but...
Maybe it's real.
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Post by lolo on May 27, 2014 2:18:52 GMT -6
I use a friggin crazy hybrid setup with 8 passive summing busses and a 1608. I know you've all heard me rant about it before... BUT!!!!! When I nail the gain staging and make the right choices with the make up amps... I can hit a sweet spot with groups of instruments on the passive busses and then sum those suckers on the 1608 in pairs and find a sweet spot on the console and I swear it can be magic. There's a noise battle when I don't get it right and it IS complex but when I have time and budget I feel like I can get something pretty special happening. Maybe it's just me listening really hard to hear all the $$ I've spent building this crazy rig but... Maybe it's real. Hey Noah, are you using the Awtac channel amps in this process as well. |
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Post by tonycamphd on May 27, 2014 5:56:24 GMT -6
I use a friggin crazy hybrid setup with 8 passive summing busses and a 1608. I know you've all heard me rant about it before... BUT!!!!! When I nail the gain staging and make the right choices with the make up amps... I can hit a sweet spot with groups of instruments on the passive busses and then sum those suckers on the 1608 in pairs and find a sweet spot on the console and I swear it can be magic. There's a noise battle when I don't get it right and it IS complex but when I have time and budget I feel like I can get something pretty special happening. Maybe it's just me listening really hard to hear all the $$ I've spent building this crazy rig but... Maybe it's real. Seems totally groovy man, is there anything we can hear? Cool set up!! |
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Post by noah shain on May 27, 2014 19:25:56 GMT -6
Yes I am using AWTAC channel amps. I actually used 6 channel amps and 10 panners as a summing sidecar for all the guitars on the new Dead Sara album. It'll be out on Epic later this year.
I mixed the last Cody Simpson record on this rig before I had the 1608 and a band from Guatemala called El Tambor De La Tribu.
I just did a few songs for a cool band called Contra on the rig with the 1608 and I'm working on a band from Mexico City called Miró on it.
Unfortunately nothing I've done with the 1608 is released yet.
Anything I've done in the last couple years was mixed with multiple passive summing busses. Some of it sounds killer...
It's a tricky rig to manage but fun and I swear, when it's just right, it's pretty dang big sounding.
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Post by jeromemason on May 28, 2014 0:19:02 GMT -6
Mine seems to be right at the edge of clipping the mixer.... I know how much level it takes to clip each channel, when I used to run it safe and leave 5-10db of head room in the mixer it sounded good, but when I started nailing it and almost, maybe even clipping somethings like the drums, that's when it opened up and the mix just sounded huge and 3D. When I'm at the point I can turn the volume down and hear every single instrument, and then turn the volume up a good bit and still hear everything, I know I'm in the spot. It's a lot of fun, it makes it feel somewhat like my days of hitting a SSL 6k, I said almost haha.
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Post by svart on May 28, 2014 6:52:00 GMT -6
Passive summing won't have a sweet spot on it's own. Either your source amplifiers are hitting their stride into the summing load at that level, or your summing amp is in it's sweet spot. Resistors are absolutely linear devices in the audio ranges.
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Post by noah shain on May 28, 2014 8:54:03 GMT -6
Passive summing won't have a sweet spot on it's own. Either your source amplifiers are hitting their stride into the summing load at that level, or your summing amp is in it's sweet spot. Resistors are absolutely linear devices in the audio ranges. I think we're looking at the resistor network, rack enclosure, cables, make up amps, pots, caps, relays, etc. as 1 integrated system. So I think we're hearing the sweet spots of our summing systems...not claiming to hear the imaginary sweet spots of our resistors. I, for one, don't really imagine I'm hearing some gigantic parting of the Red Sea effect from summing. Things aren't miraculously getting wider, warmer, clearer, deeper, more detailed. I'm just enjoying and utilizing the different saturation, envelope shaping and coloration properties of carefully chosen amplifiers on groups of tracks/instruments. It's very subtle but very real and it can be very pleasant as well. |
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Post by svart on May 28, 2014 8:59:29 GMT -6
Passive summing won't have a sweet spot on it's own. Either your source amplifiers are hitting their stride into the summing load at that level, or your summing amp is in it's sweet spot. Resistors are absolutely linear devices in the audio ranges. I think we're looking at the resistor network, rack enclosure, cables, make up amps, pots, caps, relays, etc. as 1 integrated system. So I think we're hearing the sweet spots of our summing systems...not claiming to hear the imaginary sweet spots of our resistors. Fair enough, I just wanted to make sure that point was out there. |
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Post by jeromemason on May 28, 2014 22:28:57 GMT -6
I agree with noah shain.... he hit it on the head. Basically in the hybrid setups we are just creating what a console does, but in individual pieces. When these are all fed information at their optimal level they sure let you know it, just like the console does, there's no mistaking it. I would mix on an SSL everyday all day if I could, I was taught on that console how to do this. But, I don't have the money for one, and to maintain it, much less the power bill it seems to hand you either. I look at those consoles today like a vintage wine, I can't afford to have it everyday, but it's sure nice to pop the cork on one every once in a while. |
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Post by scumbum on Jun 1, 2014 12:53:51 GMT -6
Raised on an SSL 6000E, you definitely knew when you were hitting the sweet spot of that console. John Kerzweg taught me how to find it, and when you were hitting the buss of that console just right it was like the sea parted and all the beautiful euphoric audio would just wash over you, it was beautiful, rewarding, and it actually was kinda fun pushing the faders around and finding it. For me, every mix was different, but finding where the sweet spot in the console was hiding was fun. I've had a summing mixer and used it for a while. It made me feel like the mixes seemed a little more authentic, but after some researching, trial and error, and just fiddling and fiddling with the gain staging I've finally found a point in which you sort of hit a little sweet spot. I was kind of suspicious at first, thinking it was a placebo or something, but when I flipped the mix over to just come out of PT the depth, image, punch, and sweetness was totally gone. I've only really been at this w/o being behind a console for about 2 years now, but finally I think I'm starting to grasp what Maserati and the others that use the hybrids setups are saying. When I learned (yes, I just learned this after over 10 years on PT) how to setup the meters to be post fader I could see exactly what was hitting the inputs. Knowing where my mixer maxes out in dbfs I can actually not fly in the dark on whether or not I'm clipping or hitting it hard enough. Not to mention the addition of the 8 channels of metering in the top of PT 11 was a massive help. I can see collectively just how much level is hitting the mixer and I can firmly say I'm starting to find little sweet spots now. I started a thread a while back about now being able to hear sub freq's and punch through the summing unit like I could when I was just monitoring the mix out of PT w/o the mixer in the chain. Well since now I can see exactly how I'm hitting the thing it's totally flip flopped around, now when I'm hitting at a certain point I can hear more definition and punch on the low end, much more depth, and I hate using the term "width", but what I would call a nice and full spectrum. Anyway, just thought I'd share that, for me it was like rediscovering how to hit a buss on a console just right, and I got all giddy Whats a good level to mix at in Pro Tools ? I read you set all your individual tracks in the mix to -20 . How hard should you hit the Master Fader ? |
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Post by tonycamphd on Jun 1, 2014 13:13:35 GMT -6
for me, i use 32 bit floating pt in PT10, still haven't inserted PT11, i used to not allow anything to hit much above 0 db on the fader side, now i don't let much get below 0, the headroom in 32bit is crazy good, + it utilizes more bit depth, increases dynamic range, and lowers the noise floor, at least in theory anyway. I'm anxious to use PT11 with all of its advanced metering options.
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