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Post by tkaitkai on Jun 23, 2020 16:46:13 GMT -6
Most of my work in music has been as a videographer, primarily editing/animating (lots of lyric videos and promotional videos). I've done this for about 8 years and am very fortunate to have worked with a few big names.
My payment structure has always been 50% upfront, 50% after I submit a 30 - 45s draft (which I will modify until the client is satisfied before payment is completed).
Most of my clients are happy to work this way, but there are a few that really take issue with it and cannot understand why I won't submit a full cut before being paid. From my perspective, if I were to deliver finished work without being paid, there is zero incentive for the client to actually pay. I'm not willing to spend 30 - 50 hours working on a video without 100% confidence that I will be paid.
But because I'm also a music artist, I do understand where these folks are coming from... I totally get that there's some apprehension when paying upfront in full. At the same time, I'd like to think that my portfolio sort of speaks for itself, and pretty much all of my clients come via word of mouth from other satisfied clients.
I've asked other freelancers and the response is always mixed. Some say 100% upfront, some are cool with waiting...
How do you guys handle this?
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Post by EmRR on Jun 23, 2020 17:12:38 GMT -6
If I don't know someone, it's 50% upfront, whatever that is. Day, project, etc. Whatever's applicable.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 23, 2020 17:51:20 GMT -6
$500 deposit upfront
Payment in full before I deliver the full songs (I'll send songs with the last 30 secs cut out for review/revisions).
The only exception is I have a few clients I've been working with for a decade plus, for them I'll waive the deposit.
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Post by drbill on Jun 23, 2020 18:50:22 GMT -6
50% upfront. Balance immediately upon completion. The only exception for me is long standing clients (as in people you've worked with for years) with long reaching projects which get billed weekly - of which payment is expected before the next weekly billing.
The only clients you can't get away with this is large studios like Disney, Warner Bros etc. who will ALWAYS ask for terms. But I usually get a work order from those style companies that defines that they WILL pay, what the given terms are - 30, 60, 90 days, and the scope of what they will pay for. Step outside the parameters of their work order, and YOU may very well end up not being paid. But that's on you. If the producer asks for something not on the work order, then they must do the leg work to get a revised work order. It's not on you.
No messing around. Business is business. Anyone who is not OK with that is not a client that you want. Don't let them push you around. All professionals are used to these types of terms.
Neglect taking care of business and you WILL get taken advantage of.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 23, 2020 19:23:14 GMT -6
If I don't know someone, it's 50% upfront, whatever that is. Day, project, etc. Whatever's applicable. Exactly this. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 23, 2020 21:03:54 GMT -6
50% to book the time. Non-refundable don’t even ask not going to happen it’s in the contract.
The rest paid day of etc etc etc.
You don’t get files or hard drives until I’m paid. No you don’t get a rough until you’ve paid. No I can’t spend an hour running mix passes after you’ve handed me a check for the time we’ve spent. No my hard drive space isn’t free and I won’t hold onto your files for 5 years. Oh you didn’t want to pay for stems and now you want me to do them but you can’t come up with the money for an hourly rate - sorry not going to do it.
I’ve gotten screwed so many times over the years for being nice that I’ve found I’ve had to take these positions. It’s good to be on the same page with everybody from the outset.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 13:50:55 GMT -6
50% to book the time. Non-refundable don’t even ask not going to happen it’s in the contract. The rest paid day of etc etc etc. You don’t get files or hard drives until I’m paid. No you don’t get a rough until you’ve paid. No I can’t spend an hour running mix passes after you’ve handed me a check for the time we’ve spent. No my hard drive space isn’t free and I won’t hold onto your files for 5 years. Oh you didn’t want to pay for stems and now you want me to do them but you can’t come up with the money for an hourly rate - sorry not going to do it. I’ve gotten screwed so many times over the years for being nice that I’ve found I’ve had to take these positions. It’s good to be on the same page with everybody from the outset. You seem upset.  |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 13:52:50 GMT -6
A lot of this makes sense to me, EXCEPT not sending full songs for review. I wouldn't hire an engineer that did that. What if in those 30 seconds, there was something objectionable? What about the need to get into the whole vibe of a record or song in order to properly evaluate it's level of completion? I understand that as engineers, we often view these projects from an almost purely technical perspective. Artist are not like us though.
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Post by EmRR on Jun 24, 2020 14:02:17 GMT -6
A lot of this makes sense to me, EXCEPT not sending full songs for review. I wouldn't hire an engineer that did that. What if in those 30 seconds, there was something objectionable? What about the need to get into the whole vibe of a record or song in order to properly evaluate it's level of completion? I understand that as engineers, we often view these projects from an almost purely technical perspective. Artist are not like us though. That's a tough call. I've had clients take reference mp3's and send them to mastering and then on to CD pressing, not pay me. Send full song with silent blips? |
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Post by the other mark williams on Jun 24, 2020 14:05:07 GMT -6
Maybe do the "Pond 5" thing??
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 15:01:10 GMT -6
A lot of this makes sense to me, EXCEPT not sending full songs for review. I wouldn't hire an engineer that did that. What if in those 30 seconds, there was something objectionable? What about the need to get into the whole vibe of a record or song in order to properly evaluate it's level of completion? I understand that as engineers, we often view these projects from an almost purely technical perspective. Artist are not like us though. That's a tough call. I've had clients take reference mp3's and send them to mastering and then on to CD pressing, not pay me. Send full song with silent blips? I guess I'm a little naive. That's never happened to me. Closest I've come was a dude trying to negotiate my rate after the fact. The other members of the band put a stop to that real fast though. People are really the worst sometimes. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 24, 2020 17:51:47 GMT -6
50% to book the time. Non-refundable don’t even ask not going to happen it’s in the contract. The rest paid day of etc etc etc. You don’t get files or hard drives until I’m paid. No you don’t get a rough until you’ve paid. No I can’t spend an hour running mix passes after you’ve handed me a check for the time we’ve spent. No my hard drive space isn’t free and I won’t hold onto your files for 5 years. Oh you didn’t want to pay for stems and now you want me to do them but you can’t come up with the money for an hourly rate - sorry not going to do it. I’ve gotten screwed so many times over the years for being nice that I’ve found I’ve had to take these positions. It’s good to be on the same page with everybody from the outset. You seem upset. Haha only when people don’t view what we do as a job that we use to pay bills. Like somebody else said, I’ve had people not like my mix rate, and at the time it was pretty low, then turn around and use my tracking rough from the end of the night when I’m totally shot after 14 hours, and send that to mastering... Then release the song and have the nerve to say I mixed the track in the video notes that they threw up all over Facebook. Look at the comments to see people saying “damn great song but your engineer blew the mix!” Not fun |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2020 19:19:48 GMT -6
I need to see the multitracks or demos before agreeing to work and something must always be paid in advance unless we're friends. Most bands in 2020 are not ready for a simple mixdown and do not want the Stephen Slate shit sandwich special. I always have to work something out that's very clear in advance about what I will do and for what price. Stems cost more. Processed rough tracks for them to mix down themselves are not offered. Ghetto mastering costs more. If they want me to rent something or hire someone, obviously they must pay for it. No payment, no tracks. I've seen Boogie Nights. I don't care if they have to sell their assholes. |
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Post by christopher on Jun 25, 2020 15:53:53 GMT -6
“damn great song but your engineer blew the mix!”
This is my goal with smaller budget projects. If the listener thinks the artist has more talent than the recording, I did my job
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Post by tkaitkai on Jun 25, 2020 16:09:02 GMT -6
A lot of this makes sense to me, EXCEPT not sending full songs for review. I wouldn't hire an engineer that did that. What if in those 30 seconds, there was something objectionable? What about the need to get into the whole vibe of a record or song in order to properly evaluate it's level of completion? I understand that as engineers, we often view these projects from an almost purely technical perspective. Artist are not like us though. I guess from my perspective, if a client comes to me via word-of-mouth from a mutual connection and they've seen my portfolio, they should have full confidence that I'm trustworthy and capable delivering quality work. I found an article the other day that sums it up pretty nicely: vanillavideo.com/articles/100-upfront-payment-better/But alas, I just agreed to a 50/50 split I wouldn't normally agree to (50% upfront, then submit a watermarked full edit, then complete payment), as it's with a major artist and I could really use the work... music is a funny business! |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2020 19:15:49 GMT -6
If the demos or multi tracks are really good, you can work something out if they can’t pay anything upfront. The rare project is still worth taking like that. If they’re incomplete due to the band collapsing in the middle of a multi day studio session and you can play or sing, you can even join the band for the record plus get producer credit.
This is incredibly rare. Most of the time, one of their members can’t play at all and they want you or someone you know to retrack it for free with the mixing fee. Sorry Charlie. You’re getting Mutt Langed. I will sample replace your wimpy metal drummer with his own good hits and chop up the guitarist who can play’s part to make the other part. These guys must pay in advance. I don’t do this crap for free. I hate it. Work isn’t fun. If this were fun, I’d do it for free. They’re not a badass hardcore or black metal band who needs a mix down that can be done in a couple hours in any daw and want to sound tonally exactly like the multitracks but balanced. Those guys can talk me into a cheap late night mix down with a revision or two even if they’re derivative.
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Post by bluegrassdan on Jun 27, 2020 4:50:53 GMT -6
I charge by the hour for engineering/producing sessions. If we do a week of marathon tracking, I like to be paid at the end of that week. Then paid again after mixes are totally done.
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Post by ericn on Jul 10, 2020 12:24:36 GMT -6
If anybody should understand getting ripped off / not getting paid its musicians! If they don’t understand they are either living and playing under a rock or trying to rip you off.
I don’t know how many times somebody has called me about doing a project unsolicited heard the price and terms only to hear
“Man I got to eat!”
The response is and always will be “ yeah I get that, so do I !”
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 11, 2020 18:46:18 GMT -6
If anybody should understand getting ripped off / not getting paid its musicians! If they don’t understand they are either living and playing under a rock or trying to rip you off. I don’t know how many times somebody has called me about doing a project unsolicited heard the price and terms only to hear “Man I got to eat!” The response is and always will be “ yeah I get that, so do I !” If you can't pay, gimme your guitar and amp. Pay off the debt in 3 months, you can have 'em back.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 12, 2020 0:42:43 GMT -6
Would you accept a great VST Guitar Plug then, plus some Vintage Amp Plugs? Until my YouTube channel, gets a billion views?
Chris
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 12, 2020 1:30:12 GMT -6
Would you accept a great VST Guitar Plug then, plus some Vintage Amp Plugs? Until my YouTube channel, gets a billion views? Chris No. |
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Post by gwlee7 on Jul 12, 2020 8:34:31 GMT -6
I used have a small, independent meat market and sold a few groceries as well. I did a lot of bar and restaurant business. There was this one bar owner who was always trying to get me to sell stuff to him even cheaper than my discount for businesses already in place. “But I am giving this food away to my customers”, he would always say. I would always reply, “But I am not giving it away to mine.”
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