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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 3, 2020 19:27:44 GMT -6
Thanks. Got it. That was a confusing process and I had to reset the mic volume after every measurement. Pain in the ass. I’m going to play with it more, but I really much, much prefer the sound of Sonarworks. The top end of Dirac is nothing like the top end of SW. like completely different. Bottom seems similar.
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Post by bram on Jun 4, 2020 0:14:23 GMT -6
I use Dirac with miniDSP DDRC-22, there is added latency but it’s not something I have l noticed in a long while. It’s easy enough to bypass the processing (and extra latency) when playing VI’s or soft-synths. Although come to think of it, I haven’t been bothered to turn it off even for that purpose. Currently running the DDRC with digital outs (you can swap the config), so it’s just doing the processing without DAC. Are you using a subwoofer? I’m running a stereo system with dual subs. I’m looking at the 8 channel analog mini dsp. Wondering how their AD and DA sounds?? The latency seems okay. Depending on the mini dsp unit, looks like anywhere from around 18ms to 26ms. No subs here. Before I switched the analog board out of the miniDSP to the all digital I/O, I believe I was going digital out of an Apollo 8 BF into the DDRC-22 with DA outs. I never set up a quick A/B setup to compare the miniDSP DA with the BF Apollo’s conversion, but I monitored through that setup for the better part of a year and didn’t feel I was missing anything compared to the Apollo’s monitor outs. My current signal path is Apollo x8 digital out -> DDRC-22 digital out -> PreBox S2 -> Monitors. I’d like to figure out a routing scheme to bring the processed Dirac signal digitally back into the Apollos so I can use the Apollo x16 conversion instead of the Pre Box. That being said, there have been a few times I’ve thought about selling the miniDSP and just running Dirac natively, but it’s nice not having to dedicate cpu to the processing and having processing on the entire system audio instead of just in the DAW (maybe this capability now exists, it used to just be a plug-in on the master bus). That and bypassing the processing (and added latency) for tracking/overdubs is just a matter of pushing a button on two on a remote or the unit itself. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 5:18:19 GMT -6
Thanks. Got it. That was a confusing process and I had to reset the mic volume after every measurement. Pain in the ass. I’m going to play with it more, but I really much, much prefer the sound of Sonarworks. The top end of Dirac is nothing like the top end of SW. like completely different. Bottom seems similar. I’m gonna have to A/B the two before my demo expires. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 10:11:38 GMT -6
Did some A/B comparisons. I think I prefer Dirac. SW seems to soften or push back the top end, or high mid region. Felt almost as if there was a compressor on the vocal at times. Right in the 2-5k region. Dirac didn't do that. Granted, it got closer when I had SW set to linear phase mode. But Dirac felt more effortless in that region, more open. Maybe more dynamic overall? Also, Dirac felt fuller in the low mids to me. SW still had some of that mid range boxiness going on (my room), or is it that SW deal well with the giant 100hz null in my room? Or did Dirac overcompensate? Hard to tell with this stuff. I do like that fact that I can set limits on the correction in Dirac. But, I also like that I can use SW systemwide, not confined to my DAW. Sigh. I just wish I had a trouble-free room. Drives me crazy trying to figure out what's real, and what's just my room coloring the sound.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 10:32:28 GMT -6
Did some A/B comparisons. I think I prefer Dirac. SW seems to soften or push back the top end, or high mid region. Felt almost as if there was a compressor on the vocal at times. Right in the 2-5k region. Dirac didn't do that. Granted, it got closer when I had SW set to linear phase mode. But Dirac felt more effortless in that region, more open. Maybe more dynamic overall? Also, Dirac felt fuller in the low mids to me. SW still had some of that mid range boxiness going on (my room), or is it that SW deal well with the giant 100hz null in my room? Or did Dirac overcompensate? Hard to tell with this stuff. I do like that fact that I can set limits on the correction in Dirac. But, I also like that I can use SW systemwide, not confined to my DAW. Sigh. I just wish I had a trouble-free room. Drives me crazy trying to figure out what's real, and what's just my room coloring the sound. My experience was completely the opposite. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 10:36:47 GMT -6
Just to add - I've been using SW for over a year now and it's the best mixes I've ever gotten. So, I tend to trust SW - it has proven itself to be accurate. But I'm always looking for something even better. With Dirac, I followed the instructions to a tee, used the cal profile with my mic - even redid the calibrations. And it sounds absolutely lifeless.
You know, come to think of it, at the end of the process, there was a yellow line tilted downward on top. like it adjusted the tilt automatically. I assumed that was part of the process, but maybe not. Maybe I'll try it again.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 16,107 
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Post by ericn on Jun 4, 2020 10:56:18 GMT -6
Just to add - I've been using SW for over a year now and it's the best mixes I've ever gotten. So, I tend to trust SW - it has proven itself to be accurate. But I'm always looking for something even better. With Dirac, I followed the instructions to a tee, used the cal profile with my mic - even redid the calibrations. And it sounds absolutely lifeless. You know, come to think of it, at the end of the process, there was a yellow line tilted downward on top. like it adjusted the tilt automatically. I assumed that was part of the process, but maybe not. Maybe I'll try it again. More and more I’m beginning to believe if your going to dive into correction software your going to find your choice of software is going to be as personal as your speaker choice. It’s not a one size fits all as much as we think it should be. It would be great to get guys from SW and Dirac here to explain what they are doing differently and why we here different things from different software. I just don’t see that happening. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 11:20:04 GMT -6
OK THAT'S DIFFERENT. I have absolutely no idea why my "Target" yellow line thingy was tilting to raising bass and lowering top end by default, but it was. One I set it to completely flat, the results were much better. It's not as "hyped" as the Sonarworks results, but they are definitely more similar. Now, I'm listening to a tune that was mized with Sonarworks, but if both programs were doing the same "correction," they should theoretically sound the same, right? They don't. When I switch to Dirac, I would bring have to bring up the bottom and the top end up to equal what I'm hearing in Sonarworks. This picture is interesting. I took a section of the song and froze the results in Pro-Q3. The bolder one is Sonarworks, transparent one is Dirac. Weird thing is, this really doesn't reflect what I'm hearing.  |
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 11:21:51 GMT -6
BTW - is there no way to edit a profile once you've measured it? Like, I can't go in and change the target curve in one of my existing profiles?
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 12:03:55 GMT -6
BTW - is there no way to edit a profile once you've measured it? Like, I can't go in and change the target curve in one of my existing profiles? In Dirac? Yep, just go back into the Dirac Live software and open the measurement. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 14:12:04 GMT -6
OK THAT'S DIFFERENT. I have absolutely no idea why my "Target" yellow line thingy was tilting to raising bass and lowering top end by default, but it was. One I set it to completely flat, the results were much better. It's not as "hyped" as the Sonarworks results, but they are definitely more similar. Now, I'm listening to a tune that was mized with Sonarworks, but if both programs were doing the same "correction," they should theoretically sound the same, right? They don't. When I switch to Dirac, I would bring have to bring up the bottom and the top end up to equal what I'm hearing in Sonarworks. This picture is interesting. I took a section of the song and froze the results in Pro-Q3. The bolder one is Sonarworks, transparent one is Dirac. Weird thing is, this really doesn't reflect what I'm hearing. I'll take another listen this evening. I ended up creating a couple of different profiles in Dirac to compare. I liked flat better than the default curve, which I think is more of a hi-fi thing. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 14:13:37 GMT -6
And yeah, they don't sound the same to me, either. Problem is, I don't know which one is "truer".
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 4, 2020 16:19:50 GMT -6
Just to add - I've been using SW for over a year now and it's the best mixes I've ever gotten. So, I tend to trust SW - it has proven itself to be accurate. But I'm always looking for something even better. With Dirac, I followed the instructions to a tee, used the cal profile with my mic - even redid the calibrations. And it sounds absolutely lifeless. You know, come to think of it, at the end of the process, there was a yellow line tilted downward on top. like it adjusted the tilt automatically. I assumed that was part of the process, but maybe not. Maybe I'll try it again.
If that is the case there is no more reason to worry. My Sonarworks DEMO Ends ins 1,5 weeks and I will buy it even if I have so save on a different end for it. Very useful tool.
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 17:09:42 GMT -6
Just to add - I've been using SW for over a year now and it's the best mixes I've ever gotten. So, I tend to trust SW - it has proven itself to be accurate. But I'm always looking for something even better. With Dirac, I followed the instructions to a tee, used the cal profile with my mic - even redid the calibrations. And it sounds absolutely lifeless. You know, come to think of it, at the end of the process, there was a yellow line tilted downward on top. like it adjusted the tilt automatically. I assumed that was part of the process, but maybe not. Maybe I'll try it again. If that is the case there is no more reason to worry. My Sonarworks DEMO Ends ins 1,5 weeks and I will buy it even if I have so save on a different end for it. Very useful tool.
Well, it did improve when I corrected the target. But like I was saying - one of them is wrong - listening to the same mix through both and they sound different...and I prefer the sound of SW. If I were using Dirac, I would be cranking the bottom - and I know it's translating great as it is. |
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 4, 2020 17:18:15 GMT -6
If that is the case there is no more reason to worry. My Sonarworks DEMO Ends ins 1,5 weeks and I will buy it even if I have so save on a different end for it. Very useful tool.
Well, it did improve when I corrected the target. But like I was saying - one of them is wrong - listening to the same mix through both and they sound different...and I prefer the sound of SW. If I were using Dirac, I would be cranking the bottom - and I know it's translating great as it is.
May one measurement is wrong, or in Diarc something is activated. I had for my measurement mic two diffrent calibration files one was to 100% wrong.
Real live test is always if the songs translate in mastering house better.
Last one I mixed only on SW without switching to other monitors translates well on a wide range of systems....... 
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 4, 2020 20:21:01 GMT -6
I wonder if Dirac handles the stereo image a bit better? Is that why I'm hearing the vocal as more forward (in my face) in Dirac and more pushed back (diffused) in SW? There's definitely a difference there. I had been attributing it to an eq difference, but what if the phantom center is more defined in Dirac?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 4, 2020 22:33:46 GMT -6
I wonder if Dirac handles the stereo image a bit better? Is that why I'm hearing the vocal as more forward (in my face) in Dirac and more pushed back (diffused) in SW? There's definitely a difference there. I had been attributing it to an eq difference, but what if the phantom center is more defined in Dirac? What mic did you use for the measurements? I used the Sonarworks mic for both. Just thinking about it, I can maybe hear that. Maybe I need to move the target thingy to get Dirac to sound like Sonarworks lol |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 5, 2020 5:47:17 GMT -6
I wonder if Dirac handles the stereo image a bit better? Is that why I'm hearing the vocal as more forward (in my face) in Dirac and more pushed back (diffused) in SW? There's definitely a difference there. I had been attributing it to an eq difference, but what if the phantom center is more defined in Dirac? What mic did you use for the measurements? I used the Sonarworks mic for both. Just thinking about it, I can maybe hear that. Maybe I need to move the target thingy to get Dirac to sound like Sonarworks lol Same. Using the SW mic. After more listening last night, I am convinced I’m hearing SW sounding more smeary, especially in the top end. I do agree that when I have Dirac set flat, SW has a slightly elevated low end. But I can adjust my curve in Dirac if the low end isn’t translating. For me, from like 2k up, SW sounds a little more recessed/darker/smeary/less defined. I switch to Dirac and things are more focused/present/defined/open/brighter. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 5, 2020 5:49:26 GMT -6
And if I understood REW at all, I’d take some measurements through each. But I don’t. Are there any tutorials on interpreting and understanding REW?
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Post by Johnkenn on Jun 5, 2020 7:33:46 GMT -6
And if I understood REW at all, I’d take some measurements through each. But I don’t. Are there any tutorials on interpreting and understanding REW? Yeah that’s above my learnin’ level |
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 5, 2020 7:35:26 GMT -6
Just post REW graphs here, peeps will analyze ? |
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 5, 2020 7:57:54 GMT -6
And if I understood REW at all, I’d take some measurements through each. But I don’t. Are there any tutorials on interpreting and understanding REW? REW is great but definitely NOT intuitive to use. Everytime I use it I have to search youtube to remember what the hell I'm doing. |
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 5, 2020 8:09:56 GMT -6
Well, the other roadblock is how would I use REW in conjuntion with Dirac, which is a plugin only inside my DAW?
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Post by mrholmes on Jun 5, 2020 8:45:20 GMT -6
Well, the other roadblock is how would I use REW in conjuntion with Dirac, which is a plugin only inside my DAW?
Sonarworks works as advertised Phil Wards of SOS measured with REW and found out that its close to the factories' speaker voicing. That is also what my ears tell me from knowing my monitors in and out under very good conditions.
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 5, 2020 10:39:03 GMT -6
Well, the other roadblock is how would I use REW in conjuntion with Dirac, which is a plugin only inside my DAW?
Sonarworks works as advertised Phil Wards of SOS measured with REW and found out that its close to the factories' speaker voicing. That is also what my ears tell me from knowing my monitors in and out under very good conditions.
Have you tried the new Dirac Live Studio and compared to Sonarworks? |
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