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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 19:04:46 GMT -6
As a one man show...
I have been experimenting, with recording Acoustic and Vocal at the same time, as the start of my recording, with the hope of keeping those right through to the finished product. (with overdubbed drums (midi e kit) real bass, real electric guitar , harmonies etc.
In the past, this was always done to a click track, at a fixed tempo, as it was the only way I could get everything to gel together, timing wise.
Since the advent of Logics Smart Tempo, which has the ability to analyse an audio recording and build a tempo map of the track, it seems viable to be able to free record the acoustic and vocal and then create a tempo map , so you can overdub against, and "tighten" relatively easy the overdubs... thus getting the original "feel" with ritards etc, but having a tight sound.
Well, that's all well and dandy in theory, but I have spent hundreds of hours trying to get it right and I am not succeeding... at least to a standard that I am happy with. That being the key thing.. .. that I am happy with.
The problem is... Smart Tempo, does indeed analyse the transients of say my acoustic guitar track that has a little vocal bleed in it.... and analyses down to the beat (1/4 note) really well. You have the ability to quickly fix any misaligned transients.
Problem is when it creates the tempo map, the resolution that comes out is at the Bar level... not 1/4 note...
This means that my guitar take, has the 3rd beat of the bar a little before the beat, intentionally rushed a tad... the tempo map doesn't reflect this. The is means that my snare drum on the 3 is late, but its not, cause its on the 3rd beat of the grid, if you get my drift.
This means I have to manually go in and fix things.. which sounds easy, but its really not. Its also vibe and soul destroying.
You guys who are working with good talent level artists, How are you overcoming this problem... indeed is anyone making music like this... building grids against pre recorded acoustic takes?
thanks in advance
Wiz
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Post by notneeson on May 16, 2020 19:41:35 GMT -6
I don’t use Logic— but I guess I’d expect for some kind of threshold for the tempo sensitivity. Like it defaults to bars but you might be able set it to half a bar? At some point it has to have some kind of reference for the subdivision, like it can’t change the tempo every quarter note because there’s not enough data points.
One thing you could possibly try would be to do it with a DI guitar thus eliminating vocal bleed. It’s possible the tempo mapping might work better that way. I don’t know. Not a fan of DI acoustic guitar here, but it could be scratch.
Or, you could cut a scratch track you don’t plan to use, make a tempo map from that, then program a beat to that map and track to a backing band that (theoretically) has a more human feel.
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Post by Ward on May 16, 2020 19:53:27 GMT -6
I don't work in Logic, but I'd be willing to create a tempo map the old fashioned way and share the details with you, bar beat tempo . . . love to contribute to the record also.
You got my number and email, bro!
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 19:57:40 GMT -6
I don’t use Logic— but I guess I’d expect for some kind of threshold for the tempo sensitivity. Like it defaults to bars but you might be able set it to half a bar? At some point it has to have some kind of reference for the subdivision, like it can’t change the tempo every quarter not because there’s not enough data points. One thing you could possibly try would be to do it with a DI guitar thus eliminating vocal bleed. It’s possible the tempo mapping might work better that way. I don’t know. Not a fan of DI acoustic guitar here, but it could be scratch. Or, you could cut a scratch track you don’t plan to use, make a tempo map from that, then program a beat to that map and track to a backing band that (theoretically) has a more human feel. Hey thanks for chiming in... See the thing is, yes I could do that, and have done (scratch track stuff) but what I want to do here is preserve the original take of the acoustic and vocal, and have that survive to the finished overdubbed product. Cant find any setting to make the resolution smaller than a bar, even though it detects quarter notes.. have asked on a Logic Specific forum..will post solution if I find it. I am strictly interested in preserving the performance, and creating upon that..I have successfully done it the other ways suggested. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 20:00:23 GMT -6
I don't work in Logic, but I'd be willing to create a tempo map the old fashioned way and share the details with you, bar beat tempo . . . love to contribute to the record also. You got my number and email, bro! Hey Ward thanks mate!!! I was just looking into pro tools, to see how it does this, and can see it does it in a similar way that logic used to.. .with a function called beat mapping. Which was very cumbersome and time consuming. This new method of Smart Tempo, is brilliant, fast, intuitive, it has the godamn information I just need to access it... 8) give me my quarter note resolution or give me death. I am always reticent to take peoples offers of help, as I feel their time should be paid for...and I don't want to waste it... and feel I should be able to do this stuff myself. thanks bud Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 20:14:47 GMT -6
Lay Down With Me Free Tempo (AIF)Here is an example...its a song I am working on. I recorded the acoustic guitar and vocal, together.... the old fig 8 mics trick. Then created a tempo map using smart tempo. Then played in the drums on the e kit.. then quantised the drums , so now they are locked to the tempo map' Then the bass guitar got recorded, it too gets locked to the tempo map The Electric guitar, has no timing correction applied. There are points where the drums flam against the acoustic guitar part. I can manually move the drum hits, and this fixes it to some degree, but often can make things worse in the next half or full bar. Also, I may be being to anal here, so would welcome a reality check. Cheers Wiz
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Post by popmann on May 16, 2020 20:31:14 GMT -6
Few thoughts, as someone who has worked this way for 30 years of MIDI sequencing to audio....
1- you often need to play your pulse. Meaning you play that acoustic and vocal...right...now arm a second track and click your drum sticks to the musical pulse. Detect from the sticks.
2- you will never be able to keep that guitar/vocal. Or maybe I should say I won't. That take is about FEEL...in the time domain...period...all...I may not have all the lyrics--I may not singing them in tune...I may only sing parts...I may play a slightly busier guitar than I would ever in context. You are creating a tempo map to play the song linearly to....nothing more.
3- Tempo detection SHOULD be done by the bar. You WILL have to edit that if you're doing a lot of rushing the ONE specifically, as it will make both adjoining bars "wrong"--misrepresenting the musical pulse. This is actually a flaw in Logic-that it's a PIA to manually brush up it's autodetection. It's a shame because Smart Tempo (or at least the version in Music Memos) is better than Cubase by a little at doing the autodetection--but, Cubase is NIGHT AND DAY easier to manually brush it up. BTW--MM does it by 1/4 notes like you want. I feel like Logic's did too prior to Smart Tempo--I bet it's still in there. But loop back a few lines: it's better at the bar, but it has to be RIGHT--1/4 notes just make it seem "more on" quicker because it's hitting every time you hit something...at the bar, things sound bad until you get the bar lines placed where the really ARE in the music...
If the reason you're doing this is so that you can just play vocal and guitar first and play everything to that....I've done that for clients and it sucks--talk about soul sucking work that is ALSO ends up in "less than" land? I had one who was this artsy lazy guy who just wanted to sit in his studio and play his acoustic and have tracks made for him. Here's the thing: that take is just building a foundation--it's ADDING a step of three to the process, NOT removing them. You're doing it for a BETTER...more unique to you result. Not because you want to do this all quicker.
If you want quick? You use a click. There's nothing remotely easier about not. It saves you a few minutes to find the best compromised tempo to set the click at in hour one. Costs a LOT more in time.
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Post by jeremygillespie on May 16, 2020 21:15:30 GMT -6
Wiz...
You’re song writing, singing, and playing are fantastic. Send a tune to Aron Sterling and ask what he’d charge to play on your track. You’ll get amazing sounds, soulful playing, and I’m pretty sure it’s not going to cost an arm or a leg.
I promise it’ll be worth it.
If nothing else send an email and see what it’ll cost you. Your songs will get the lift they deserve.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2020 21:30:09 GMT -6
wizI love what you're trying to do with the technology here, and as a singer/songwriter myself, it's like the #1 thing I would want Smart Tempo to do. But I've also had trouble getting it to work in the way you describe. Now, I haven't spent as much time trying to make it work as you have - I just give up quicker - so I could be missing something here when I suggest this: Go to Project Settings > Smart Tempo then go to "Options" at the bottom. There's a parameter for "Export Tempo Resolution." It's set to "Smoothed" by default, but there's a option for "Beats". Does this help at all? Does it change anything about the current behavior?
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 21:35:15 GMT -6
wiz I love what you're trying to do with the technology here, and as a singer/songwriter myself, it's like the #1 thing I would want Smart Tempo to do. But I've also had trouble getting it to work in the way you describe. Now, I haven't spent as much time trying to make it work as you have - I just give up quicker - so I could be missing something here when I suggest this: Go to Project Settings > Smart Tempo then go to "Options" at the bottom. There's a parameter for "Export Tempo Resolution." It's set to "Smoothed" by default, but there's a option for "Beats". Does this help at all? Does it change anything about the current behavior? Oh I want to have your baby!!! LOL that's what I was looking for! thanks so much Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 21:35:47 GMT -6
Few thoughts, as someone who has worked this way for 30 years of MIDI sequencing to audio.... 1- you often need to play your pulse. Meaning you play that acoustic and vocal...right...now arm a second track and click your drum sticks to the musical pulse. Detect from the sticks. 2- you will never be able to keep that guitar/vocal. Or maybe I should say I won't. That take is about FEEL...in the time domain...period...all...I may not have all the lyrics--I may not singing them in tune...I may only sing parts...I may play a slightly busier guitar than I would ever in context. You are creating a tempo map to play the song linearly to....nothing more. 3- Tempo detection SHOULD be done by the bar. You WILL have to edit that if you're doing a lot of rushing the ONE specifically, as it will make both adjoining bars "wrong"--misrepresenting the musical pulse. This is actually a flaw in Logic-that it's a PIA to manually brush up it's autodetection. It's a shame because Smart Tempo (or at least the version in Music Memos) is better than Cubase by a little at doing the autodetection--but, Cubase is NIGHT AND DAY easier to manually brush it up. BTW--MM does it by 1/4 notes like you want. I feel like Logic's did too prior to Smart Tempo--I bet it's still in there. But loop back a few lines: it's better at the bar, but it has to be RIGHT--1/4 notes just make it seem "more on" quicker because it's hitting every time you hit something...at the bar, things sound bad until you get the bar lines placed where the really ARE in the music... If the reason you're doing this is so that you can just play vocal and guitar first and play everything to that....I've done that for clients and it sucks--talk about soul sucking work that is ALSO ends up in "less than" land? I had one who was this artsy lazy guy who just wanted to sit in his studio and play his acoustic and have tracks made for him. Here's the thing: that take is just building a foundation--it's ADDING a step of three to the process, NOT removing them. You're doing it for a BETTER...more unique to you result. Not because you want to do this all quicker. If you want quick? You use a click. There's nothing remotely easier about not. It saves you a few minutes to find the best compromised tempo to set the click at in hour one. Costs a LOT more in time. Thank you Jamie, that is really good insight. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 21:36:16 GMT -6
Wiz... You’re song writing, singing, and playing are fantastic. Send a tune to Aron Sterling and ask what he’d charge to play on your track. You’ll get amazing sounds, soulful playing, and I’m pretty sure it’s not going to cost an arm or a leg. I promise it’ll be worth it. If nothing else send an email and see what it’ll cost you. Your songs will get the lift they deserve. Thank you Jeremy I think I will... would be interesting. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by drbill on May 16, 2020 21:38:05 GMT -6
Wiz - it's been a decade since I used it, but Digital Performer had that pretty dialed in a decade or more ago. Might be worth checking out.
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Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2020 21:43:44 GMT -6
wiz I love what you're trying to do with the technology here, and as a singer/songwriter myself, it's like the #1 thing I would want Smart Tempo to do. But I've also had trouble getting it to work in the way you describe. Now, I haven't spent as much time trying to make it work as you have - I just give up quicker - so I could be missing something here when I suggest this: Go to Project Settings > Smart Tempo then go to "Options" at the bottom. There's a parameter for "Export Tempo Resolution." It's set to "Smoothed" by default, but there's a option for "Beats". Does this help at all? Does it change anything about the current behavior? Oh I want to have your baby!!! LOL that's what I was looking for! thanks so much Cheers Wiz Stop it man, I'm blushing.  I seriously want to know if that makes Logic behave how you want it to. I haven't tried that parameter, and I'm wondering if it would fix it for me, too. |
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Post by wiz on May 16, 2020 21:46:57 GMT -6
Oh I want to have your baby!!! LOL that's what I was looking for! thanks so much Cheers Wiz Stop it man, I'm blushing. I seriously want to know if that makes Logic behave how you want it to. I haven't tried that parameter, and I'm wondering if it would fix it for me, too. I just tried it..yes This will allow me to create an accurate tempo map down to the quarter note. This means my "pulse" on the Acoustic will be maintained... and any quantise will work properly. thanks again Wiz |
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Post by the other mark williams on May 16, 2020 22:17:13 GMT -6
Stop it man, I'm blushing. I seriously want to know if that makes Logic behave how you want it to. I haven't tried that parameter, and I'm wondering if it would fix it for me, too. I just tried it..yes This will allow me to create an accurate tempo map down to the quarter note. This means my "pulse" on the Acoustic will be maintained... and any quantise will work properly. thanks again Wiz Fantastic! If you don't mind, please update the thread over the next few days to confirm whether it's still working, or if changing that parameter managed to bork something else in an unexpected way... |
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Post by notneeson on May 16, 2020 23:46:36 GMT -6
I don’t use Logic— but I guess I’d expect for some kind of threshold for the tempo sensitivity. Like it defaults to bars but you might be able set it to half a bar? At some point it has to have some kind of reference for the subdivision, like it can’t change the tempo every quarter not because there’s not enough data points. One thing you could possibly try would be to do it with a DI guitar thus eliminating vocal bleed. It’s possible the tempo mapping might work better that way. I don’t know. Not a fan of DI acoustic guitar here, but it could be scratch. Or, you could cut a scratch track you don’t plan to use, make a tempo map from that, then program a beat to that map and track to a backing band that (theoretically) has a more human feel. Hey thanks for chiming in... See the thing is, yes I could do that, and have done (scratch track stuff) but what I want to do here is preserve the original take of the acoustic and vocal, and have that survive to the finished overdubbed product. Cant find any setting to make the resolution smaller than a bar, even though it detects quarter notes.. have asked on a Logic Specific forum..will post solution if I find it. I am strictly interested in preserving the performance, and creating upon that..I have successfully done it the other ways suggested. Cheers Wiz EDIT: Look like you got it working! That's great, how do the takes feel when you get a beat going to the tempo map? Here's what I had written on a more philosophical note: Yes, clear on the intent. Recording alone on a vacuum is really tough. I empathize. I guess what I'm really wondering is, why is the original take so important? I know all about magic takes you can't beat by overdubbing, but why do you think you are getting keeper takes sans click or accompaniment? How could you get into that mindset after doing some pre-production? Here's one more thing— a lot of REM stuff was apparently cut sans click, but after rehearsing to a click. Perhaps that would help you to get what you want out of Smart Tempo. |
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Post by wiz on May 17, 2020 0:08:25 GMT -6
Hey thanks for chiming in... See the thing is, yes I could do that, and have done (scratch track stuff) but what I want to do here is preserve the original take of the acoustic and vocal, and have that survive to the finished overdubbed product. Cant find any setting to make the resolution smaller than a bar, even though it detects quarter notes.. have asked on a Logic Specific forum..will post solution if I find it. I am strictly interested in preserving the performance, and creating upon that..I have successfully done it the other ways suggested. Cheers Wiz EDIT: Look like you got it working! That's great, how do the takes feel when you get a beat going to the tempo map? Here's what I had written on a more philosophical note: Yes, clear on the intent. Recording alone on a vacuum is really tough. I empathize. I guess what I'm really wondering is, why is the original take so important? I know all about magic takes you can't beat by overdubbing, but why do you think you are getting keeper takes sans click or accompaniment? How could you get into that mindset after doing some pre-production? Here's one more thing— a lot of REM stuff was apparently cut sans click, but after rehearsing to a click. Perhaps that would help you to get what you want out of Smart Tempo. I have done 6 albums, to a click... 8) I got plenty of experience that way... Its just nice to capture the guitar and voice at the same time.... and if I can get it to work, artistically and engineringly... I will be a happier camper.. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by theshea on May 17, 2020 1:27:14 GMT -6
Melodyne can do that too. I don't own it but saw a video about a 3 piece playing live. melodyne analysed the temp and they could programm quantized drums to it OR they could even straighten the tempo of the live/free recording to a constant tempo (just like a regular click) and it sounded good.
what i do in these cases is: record free without click singing and playing acoustic guitar. than i let logic analyse my tempo and i than take the average tempo from my first verse and chorus, second verse and chorus and i will build my own tempo and than re-record to the click but with my tempos, with my tempochanges, everything smoothed out. because i would presume with your method, yes, it will work. ut the tempo will be slightly different every bar and i guess that could make the rhytm section (drums, bass) sound bumpy.
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Post by wiz on May 17, 2020 3:28:05 GMT -6
Melodyne can do that too. I don't own it but saw a video about a 3 piece playing live. melodyne analysed the temp and they could programm quantized drums to it OR they could even straighten the tempo of the live/free recording to a constant tempo (just like a regular click) and it sounded good. what i do in these cases is: record free without click singing and playing acoustic guitar. than i let logic analyse my tempo and i than take the average tempo from my first verse and chorus, second verse and chorus and i will build my own tempo and than re-record to the click but with my tempos, with my tempochanges, everything smoothed out. because i would presume with your method, yes, it will work. ut the tempo will be slightly different every bar and i guess that could make the rhytm section (drums, bass) sound bumpy. I got it sorted sounds great |
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Post by swafford on May 17, 2020 4:10:46 GMT -6
I use to record to a click when starting solo - first guitar, then overdub a vocal. Then I discovered my timing is pretty good and the two drummers I work with are able to follow me with out a problem. On my most recent project, I've found that my timing is good enough to be able to swap out parts from different takes as long as the takes are from the same sequence. (ie - I usually do 3-5 takes in a row and the timing between these is remarkably consistent.)
I'm not interested in doing grids, that tedious. I'd rather mow the lawn.
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Post by wiz on May 17, 2020 4:25:36 GMT -6
I just tried it..yes This will allow me to create an accurate tempo map down to the quarter note. This means my "pulse" on the Acoustic will be maintained... and any quantise will work properly. thanks again Wiz Fantastic! If you don't mind, please update the thread over the next few days to confirm whether it's still working, or if changing that parameter managed to bork something else in an unexpected way... Well its working just as I had hoped.... this really is a god send for me. I really like the vibe of when I play and sing... .sure I can play to a click track.... but its so much more enjoyable ..."live" Its super fast for me. Its going to make my life much more enjoyable...and prolific. Cheers Wiz |
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Post by schmalzy on May 17, 2020 5:16:28 GMT -6
You've got it sorted out so I'm not going to go into too much detail. Glad it's workin' for ya'!
I work in Reaper this "free tempo" way a lot. I work with a lot of hardcore/heavy bands that have intentionally wild fluctuations and dramatic moments needing a longer beat or two or eight or here and there.
The best way it's worked for me is just by doing it all manually. I've tried automatic stuff and never liked the result. Often enough the transient is intentionally off the beat so it's manual all the way for me.
...but you've got it figured out for an automatic sort of way. Awesome!
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Post by kcatthedog on May 17, 2020 7:44:58 GMT -6
In logic, you also have flex time which allows you to move transients, but is manual editing, can help too ?
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Post by Martin John Butler on May 17, 2020 9:33:53 GMT -6
I did my entire album, Watching the Days Fall like this. I had been told I was dying, so rather than leave my friends with a few photos, I booked a studio and sang everyone song I had, one take, acoustic and vocal, no overdubs, no pitch correction, nothing.
As I began to recover, friends said why not finish the album. So I added everything later, including drums. I could have redone the guitar and vocal, but decided to leave it raw and real.
Unfortunately, the only way to do what you want to was to get a real drummer. Now I'll have to try this new way. I wonder if after getting it all in sync, can you switch the drum to Superior Drummer.
* I used Martin Butler then, but was being confused with two other artists with the same name, so began including my middle name.
Here's one track from that album:
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