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Post by iamasound on Mar 30, 2020 1:17:12 GMT -6
Im the 90's I was using a Furman power conditioner (I no longer remember the model) and friends with studios would marvel at how quiet my mixes were. It wasn't a base model though and if I remember correctly had a voltage regulator which seemed (I am a glorified idiot when it comes to anything more technical than changing lightbulbs) to massage the rather low voltage that registered usually at around 108 volts up to 120. It seemed to work a charm.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Mar 30, 2020 1:24:05 GMT -6
If they're sold as power strips, not much. However if they claim to be "conditioners", which they are often sold as, I expect them to condition. And they don't. Mine were sold as powerstrips. If I was looking for a conditioner, I wouldn't buy a $100 powerstrip. Serious conditioners cost serious money. The furman rackmount power strips all have "power conditioner" in their name, except the D-10. Its not until the prestige series that they actually do power conditioning though.
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Post by levon on Mar 30, 2020 2:55:17 GMT -6
Mine were sold as powerstrips. If I was looking for a conditioner, I wouldn't buy a $100 powerstrip. Serious conditioners cost serious money. The furman rackmount power strips all have "power conditioner" in their name, except the D-10. Its not until the prestige series that they actually do power conditioning though. I have M-10x strips. When I bought them years ago, they were sold as powerstrips with an overload safety function. They have worked without problems for many years now. I have also looked at higher quality Furman units (around 800€) that were recommended by people who are more knowledgeable than me (and are un-biased by GS-level opinions or grumpy 'know-it-all' attitude). Supposedly better still are the high-end models, such as the Furman P-6900 or the Kikusui PCR500. Those, however, run into a few thousand bucks. As I said, serious conditioners cost serious money.
So far, I haven't seen the need for regulating electric power here in my place, however, guitar amps, especially vintage tube amps, apparently benefit from conditioners that are able to regulate and adjust voltage and mains frequencies.
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Post by levon on Mar 30, 2020 3:00:17 GMT -6
Mine were sold as powerstrips. If I was looking for a conditioner, I wouldn't buy a $100 powerstrip. Serious conditioners cost serious money. The furman rackmount power strips all have "power conditioner" in their name, except the D-10. Its not until the prestige series that they actually do power conditioning though. But you're right, my strips are now sold as power conditioners, which they're not...
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Mar 30, 2020 4:48:23 GMT -6
The furman rackmount power strips all have "power conditioner" in their name, except the D-10. Its not until the prestige series that they actually do power conditioning though. But you're right, my strips are now sold as power conditioners, which they're not... They are good power strips, unfortunate marketing now. Our city has good quality power and well regulated so there is not a great need for conditioners.
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 30, 2020 7:56:43 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 7:59:32 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality. no pun intended. Is that ur unbiased opinion? Ur not just saying that cause you maybe sell them?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 30, 2020 8:35:19 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality. no pun intended. Is that ur unbiased opinion? Ur not just saying that cause you maybe sell them? Parsons, Adams employer as access to pretty much every power product out there so there are only to possible reason to spec Furman they are either higher margin or they just work. Now back in my days at Full Compass, who I know Adam will admit did much more volume with Furman and probably had a better deal with Furman, it wasn’t the margin leader by a long shot in this catagory. There is always some new company that figures out that a simple outlet strip in a rack mount chassis is cheap to make and will drop their pants on a pallet or 2 just to get in the door. Hey these are great to basically give away, but you quickly learn that’s all they are good for. Furman is also one of the few that also offers isolation transformers, balanced power, and voltage regulation products. They were also pretty good at keeping all these products in stock ( my favorite 20 amp Triplite voltage regulator was less expensive but always a bitch to get.) I probably pick on Adam more than anybody out there for letting his Gearpimp show through, but I know Parson’s more for their large scale installation’s than anything so I got to give him props on this one.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 30, 2020 8:41:01 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality. Hey Adam, I could look this up but I’m feeling lazy today. Dose Furman still have the line that uses there own circuit for protection instead of MOV’s? They were the ones that would take more than one spike and still protect. That’s the problem with 99% of the stuff out there as far as protection they are one and done protection wise and then the protection circuit becomes a simple wire trace. They also never tell you “ Hey I did it now go replace me!!!”
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 30, 2020 11:47:31 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality. no pun intended. Is that ur unbiased opinion? Ur not just saying that cause you maybe sell them? Hi, My previous post is based around my experience with the gear. I have no interest in who purchases what or where. I stand to gain exactly nothing from that post, Or Any post. As Eric mentioned above, my employer specifies audio systems for bigger installations. I have some experience doing this, and have spec'd the Furman products for their quality and the "getting the job done, with reliable, proven tools" - aspect. I have never, spec'd a tool in a setup - due to Higher Margin. Not ever in my 15 year career. The customers might call us saying the rig died. We don't like that. Therefore, we spec tools that we are familiar with and are proven. As well, I Have two of these products. I have an 8-MX2 in my studio an a SB-6 in my apartment. I like the quality I got for the money I spent. Which wasn't too much different from Retail. peace a.j.b
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Post by adamjbrass on Mar 30, 2020 11:54:01 GMT -6
I have had good experiences with Furman power. We spec the expensive ones on big jobs. I like the M-8x2. Its not expensive and good quality. Hey Adam, I could look this up but I’m feeling lazy today. Dose Furman still have the line that uses there own circuit for protection instead of MOV’s? They were the ones that would take more than one spike and still protect. That’s the problem with 99% of the stuff out there as far as protection they are one and done protection wise and then the protection circuit becomes a simple wire trace. They also never tell you “ Hey I did it now go replace me!!!” The Classic Series? www.furmanpower.com/products/all/component-power/classic-series
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2020 13:37:33 GMT -6
no pun intended. Is that ur unbiased opinion? Ur not just saying that cause you maybe sell them? Hi, My previous post is based around my experience with the gear. I have no interest in who purchases what or where. I stand to gain exactly nothing from that post, Or Any post. As Eric mentioned above, my employer specifies audio systems for bigger installations. I have some experience doing this, and have spec'd the Furman products for their quality and the "getting the job done, with reliable, proven tools" - aspect. I have never, spec'd a tool in a setup - due to Higher Margin. Not ever in my 15 year career. The customers might call us saying the rig died. We don't like that. Therefore, we spec tools that we are familiar with and are proven. As well, I Have two of these products. I have an 8-MX2 in my studio an a SB-6 in my apartment. I like the quality I got for the money I spent. Which wasn't too much different from Retail. peace a.j.b Fair enough. I had to ask.. After watching that video I am not sure what to make for the rest of their lineup.
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Post by plinker on Mar 30, 2020 14:08:34 GMT -6
I use a Tripp-Lite Isobar. Here's a tear-down review from Toms: www.tomshardware.com/picturestory/684-tripp-lite-isobar-tear-down.htmlMy nice monoprice monitor has a cheap-ass, switched power supply that dumps noise into the electrical circuit. The Isobar keeps the noise out of my audio gear. It's a decent compromise between BS power strips and an expensive, transformer-based power conditioner.
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Post by nudwig on Mar 30, 2020 21:40:48 GMT -6
I have probably a half dozen Furman rack conditioners, none of the fancy ones. I always thought they did a fine job until I integrated a server room dual conversion UPS to help with power sags in the summer. Now that is clean power! Felt like getting new monitors and amps. Tube mics seem to appreciate it as well.
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Post by soundintheround on Mar 30, 2020 21:58:01 GMT -6
Doesn’t take too much explanation to demystify what the magic box is doing....
Your either gonna have 1. Big ass transformer that galvanically isolates the power in the studio 2. An inverter (ups) type of device with power electronics, that is changing AC to DC, then DC back to AC again with the attempt to make it cleaner 3. A glorified power conditioner/strip with MOVs and other devices to protect your equipment during a surge event
Personally I would go with a company like Furman that has decades of history designing this stuff and choosing quality components than some random company. Not saying they are building ‘luxury’ rackmount power strips, but they have some reputation and warranty (I would think) to go on.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 31, 2020 12:20:31 GMT -6
This whole thing reads to me like a sporting event for power strips.
"Furman will die!"
"No furman is the champion!! The mightiest power strip that Zeus would use for his lightning generator!"
I have to put in a fan vote for the Musician's Gear power distributors that I buy from Musician's Friend for like 30 bucks apiece. They actually do reduce some noise for me. I have 6 of them at least.
Anyway, I thought that video was very well done. Agree with it or not but he covers a lot of detail. Vote for your own team when it's all over.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 31, 2020 12:28:39 GMT -6
Doesn’t take too much explanation to demystify what the magic box is doing.... Your either gonna have 1. Big ass transformer that galvanically isolates the power in the studio 2. An inverter (ups) type of device with power electronics, that is changing AC to DC, then DC back to AC again with the attempt to make it cleaner 3. A glorified power conditioner/strip with MOVs and other devices to protect your equipment during a surge event Personally I would go with a company like Furman that has decades of history designing this stuff and choosing quality components than some random company. Not saying they are building ‘luxury’ rackmount power strips, but they have some reputation and warranty (I would think) to go on. What are those little capacitors for? What about the small transformers? Just wondering if anyone has any EE insight into the circuits of these things. In my little world, a little extra filtering goes a long way to help with noise reduction.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 31, 2020 12:49:37 GMT -6
The furman rackmount power strips all have "power conditioner" in their name, except the D-10. Its not until the prestige series that they actually do power conditioning though. I have M-10x strips. When I bought them years ago, they were sold as powerstrips with an overload safety function. They have worked without problems for many years now. I have also looked at higher quality Furman units (around 800€) that were recommended by people who are more knowledgeable than me (and are un-biased by GS-level opinions or grumpy 'know-it-all' attitude). Supposedly better still are the high-end models, such as the Furman P-6900 or the Kikusui PCR500. Those, however, run into a few thousand bucks. As I said, serious conditioners cost serious money.
So far, I haven't seen the need for regulating electric power here in my place, however, guitar amps, especially vintage tube amps, apparently benefit from conditioners that are able to regulate and adjust voltage and mains frequencies.
Worked without problems for many years?
HHMmmmm.... As I mentioned above, MOV based surge protectors wear out and you have no way of knowing that they're not protecting you anymore, since they still work fine as power strips. If you've had them that long it might be a good idea to replace the MOVs. They're not expensive at all. After you've done that you might start thinking about buying good quality strips that aren't surge protectors and simply soldeing in your own MOVs instead of paying extra for factory made surge protectors....
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 31, 2020 13:44:00 GMT -6
I have M-10x strips. When I bought them years ago, they were sold as powerstrips with an overload safety function. They have worked without problems for many years now. I have also looked at higher quality Furman units (around 800€) that were recommended by people who are more knowledgeable than me (and are un-biased by GS-level opinions or grumpy 'know-it-all' attitude). Supposedly better still are the high-end models, such as the Furman P-6900 or the Kikusui PCR500. Those, however, run into a few thousand bucks. As I said, serious conditioners cost serious money.
So far, I haven't seen the need for regulating electric power here in my place, however, guitar amps, especially vintage tube amps, apparently benefit from conditioners that are able to regulate and adjust voltage and mains frequencies.
Worked without problems for many years?
HHMmmmm.... As I mentioned above, MOV based surge protectors wear out and you have no way of knowing that they're not protecting you anymore, since they still work fine as power strips. If you've had them that long it might be a good idea to replace the MOVs. They're not expensive at all. After you've done that you might start thinking about buying good quality strips that aren't surge protectors and simply soldeing in your own MOVs instead of paying extra for factory made surge protectors....
In my young live days I would build my own with ground lift switches. One thing to remember don’t plug high power amplifiers into anything that will limit Current!! I think one of the best things about old School Crest Amps ( 001 and FA series) was that the front switch was the circuit breaker ! No need for any other Breaker or Fuse!
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 31, 2020 14:26:11 GMT -6
Worked without problems for many years?
HHMmmmm.... As I mentioned above, MOV based surge protectors wear out and you have no way of knowing that they're not protecting you anymore, since they still work fine as power strips. If you've had them that long it might be a good idea to replace the MOVs. They're not expensive at all. After you've done that you might start thinking about buying good quality strips that aren't surge protectors and simply soldeing in your own MOVs instead of paying extra for factory made surge protectors....
In my young live days I would build my own with ground lift switches. One thing to remember don’t plug high power amplifiers into anything that will limit Current!! I think one of the best things about old School Crest Amps ( 001 and FA series) was that the front switch was the circuit breaker ! No need for any other Breaker or Fuse!
Especially those newfangled crappy Class D plate amps built into most active PA speakers these days, since, lacking a current reserve in the power supply they're totally reliant on the power line for current - and therefore will crap out when required to put out any type of sustained low end anywhere close to "rated" power.
I remember an ad by Lab Gruppen comparing generic Class D amps with their typical lack of power supply to LG's own which actually contains large and expensive capacitors in their supply, even though it's a switcher like other Class Ds use. With the generic amp a repeated fast kick drum beat crapped out on the seconf hit due to lack of current reserve. The LG didn't.
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Post by soundintheround on Mar 31, 2020 20:10:32 GMT -6
Doesn’t take too much explanation to demystify what the magic box is doing.... Your either gonna have 1. Big ass transformer that galvanically isolates the power in the studio 2. An inverter (ups) type of device with power electronics, that is changing AC to DC, then DC back to AC again with the attempt to make it cleaner 3. A glorified power conditioner/strip with MOVs and other devices to protect your equipment during a surge event Personally I would go with a company like Furman that has decades of history designing this stuff and choosing quality components than some random company. Not saying they are building ‘luxury’ rackmount power strips, but they have some reputation and warranty (I would think) to go on. What are those little capacitors for? What about the small transformers? Just wondering if anyone has any EE insight into the circuits of these things. In my little world, a little extra filtering goes a long way to help with noise reduction. For solution #3 above Any EMI/EMF filter can be be a combination of capacitors, inductors, magnetics (usually common-mode chokes). The rest of the stuff is going to be some sort of surge suppression. This stuff is somewhat of a black-art to be honest, and certainly nothing that can be judged by inspection. This all gets tested and qualified in the lab. You'd be surprised what ends up being a problem, and what isn't. Its never what you expect. The Furman shown here really isn't the device they have established their name on. This is a furman power strip, which is a different product than the rackmount stuff.
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Post by johneppstein on Mar 31, 2020 23:36:09 GMT -6
Doesn’t take too much explanation to demystify what the magic box is doing.... Your either gonna have 1. Big ass transformer that galvanically isolates the power in the studio 2. An inverter (ups) type of device with power electronics, that is changing AC to DC, then DC back to AC again with the attempt to make it cleaner 3. A glorified power conditioner/strip with MOVs and other devices to protect your equipment during a surge event Personally I would go with a company like Furman that has decades of history designing this stuff and choosing quality components than some random company. Not saying they are building ‘luxury’ rackmount power strips, but they have some reputation and warranty (I would think) to go on. Personally I would go with a company like APC or others you're less likely to have heard of that make equipment for industrial, scientific, and medical applications.
I probably wouldn't want to go with a company that started out as a builder of affordable PA gear like crossovers, EQs, compressors, and instrument preamps, who glommed on to the "power conditioner" thing when the rest of their sales got so bad that their main sellers were rack mounted power strips.
I used lots of their audio gear back in the day - there weren't any other affordable off-the-shelf choices in their niche for about 5-6 years. You wanted a stereo 2-way electronic crossover and couldn't afford a Crown VFX-2? You bought a Furman. When other companies came in with better product in the same general price range their audio biz went tits up.
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Post by soundintheround on Apr 1, 2020 15:14:38 GMT -6
John maybe has the full story here. Idk But Furman has worked for me over the past 15 years without issues. If you open up one of their high/medium quality rackmount strips, I think your gonna see something a bit different.
If your deciding between Furman and a AmazonChoice or some complete Chinese garbage thing....I think the answer is clear.
I have that exact Belkin one and I was pleasingly surprised to see it had a common mode choke. But it isn’t like it’s something obvious and I could have guessed that belkin had that in it because stuff sounded better plugged into it. This is all pretty subtle stuff.
Solution #1 above is really the only way to move towards a totally clean isolated system...but to be honest I’ve never done it
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