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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2019 16:51:26 GMT -6
I mean, I'm not going to argue with anybody...if they feel strongly about it, I'll do it...but I have a client that I tracked a song for, mixed and mastered...and on mix 3 I get a note back to "tone down mid and treble a little and increases overall bass on vocal and master and a little more compression." This client has mentioned to me on more than one occasion that he has major hearing loss...seriously. This is the same guy that tracked his vocal on a Blue Snowball (sounded damn good actually.) I'd be pretty gobsmacked if he even knew what compression does... I'm not making fun of anyone, but this is kind of akin to telling your doctor what pills to prescribe you. To make the changes he wants (there were more than that) would really make it sound dramatically worse and I don't really want him telling people I mixed it if I don't like the way it sounds. He's a nice guy, but I don't even know if I want to deal with any back and forth about it...What would you do?
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Post by wiz on Nov 22, 2019 17:13:34 GMT -6
I mean, I'm not going to argue with anybody...if they feel strongly about it, I'll do it...but I have a client that I tracked a song for, mixed and mastered...and on mix 3 I get a note back to "tone down mid and treble a little and increases overall bass on vocal and master and a little more compression." This client has mentioned to me on more than one occasion that he has major hearing loss...seriously. This is the same guy that tracked his vocal on a Blue Snowball (sounded damn good actually.) I'd be pretty gobsmacked if he even knew what compression does... I'm not making fun of anyone, but this is kind of akin to telling your doctor what pills to prescribe you. To make the changes he wants (there were more than that) would really make it sound dramatically worse and I don't really want him telling people I mixed it if I don't like the way it sounds. He's a nice guy, but I don't even know if I want to deal with any back and forth about it...What would you do? After five minutes of thinking he is a dick.... 8) I would have a listen to the mix, try and work out what he wants, then, make it just a little louder... Louder always wins. Cheers Wiz
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 22, 2019 17:13:58 GMT -6
hmm tricky.
Few options.
1) walk away. Just say you don't think those would be good for the tracks and decline the changes and use of the mixes you've done.
2) Do the changes, explain why you don't like them, let him hear them, hope he understands they are worse. If not and he likes the changes can always ask to have your name removed from the project.
3) Trick him. Make a change, but not all of them. There is also a chance he is hearing things but not always consistently and by changing something he will focus on something else. Im not sure if he is one of those people that will just give you changes...just to have you change something.
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Post by svart on Nov 22, 2019 17:32:27 GMT -6
I find that usually they're asking for a result but confusing something they think is causing the problem and I try to find out what they're really after.
For instance, if they ask for more treble, they're more than likely asking for less mud.
If they want more low end, it usually means the translation to small speakers isn't good.
And so forth.
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Post by notneeson on Nov 22, 2019 17:35:58 GMT -6
Just make it louder, then they'll hear whatever improvement they want to hear. Like Svart, I just try and divine what the result they're chasing— like maybe the low register instruments need more hair on them to evoke a sense of bottom end solidity.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2019 18:58:20 GMT -6
I find that usually they're asking for a result but confusing something they think is causing the problem and I try to find out what they're really after. For instance, if they ask for more treble, they're more than likely asking for less mud. If they want more low end, it usually means the translation to small speakers isn't good. And so forth. Like computer speakers lol?
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 22, 2019 19:02:07 GMT -6
And again, I’m not making fun at all. I like him. I just sent an email saying I’d do the changes but I don’t suggest it.
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Post by saltyjames on Nov 22, 2019 19:53:41 GMT -6
I mean, I'm not going to argue with anybody...if they feel strongly about it, I'll do it...but I have a client that I tracked a song for, mixed and mastered...and on mix 3 I get a note back to "tone down mid and treble a little and increases overall bass on vocal and master and a little more compression." This client has mentioned to me on more than one occasion that he has major hearing loss...seriously. This is the same guy that tracked his vocal on a Blue Snowball (sounded damn good actually.) I'd be pretty gobsmacked if he even knew what compression does... I'm not making fun of anyone, but this is kind of akin to telling your doctor what pills to prescribe you. To make the changes he wants (there were more than that) would really make it sound dramatically worse and I don't really want him telling people I mixed it if I don't like the way it sounds. He's a nice guy, but I don't even know if I want to deal with any back and forth about it...What would you do? I have found complete honesty to be of great worth as well as an amazing friendship builder. And based on this I would apologize and tell the client I love everything they are doing and really soften the blow. Then I would tell them basically exactly what you told us.
They will then know how to respond to your situation best. And you will likely have their permanent trust, maybe friendship.
Outside of that there are considerations: What did he listen on? Laptop, earbuds. Which, I hate to say, but this has now become somewhat valid. What is he actually trying to achieve? (someone said this above)
All is all I would still say the relationship is worth more than the mix. I would just shoot straight.
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Post by svart on Nov 22, 2019 21:39:27 GMT -6
I find that usually they're asking for a result but confusing something they think is causing the problem and I try to find out what they're really after. For instance, if they ask for more treble, they're more than likely asking for less mud. If they want more low end, it usually means the translation to small speakers isn't good. And so forth. Like computer speakers lol? Yes. It's a lot more common now with online streaming. I've literally had people pull out their laptops to see how the mix sounds on them.
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Post by spradingaling on Nov 22, 2019 22:38:34 GMT -6
When I get requests like those I’ll ask them to send me a song or two they’ve been listening to recently for comparison sake. That’s usually a better indicator for what they want than anything they’re able to communicate.
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Post by saltyjames on Nov 22, 2019 23:26:04 GMT -6
Like computer speakers lol? Yes. It's a lot more common now with online streaming. I've literally had people pull out their laptops to see how the mix sounds on them. Yep. The world record for throwing a laptop is a long ass way. No really. I googled it: “ Matthew Nunnery threw a laptop computer 80 feet, 4 inches.” That’s odds are not zero that ole Matthew is a damn fine mix engineer as well as being somewhat of an athlete.
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Post by theshea on Nov 23, 2019 3:15:37 GMT -6
i get way worse request from a client: song is mixed and mastered - everybody happy. than 1 month later he wants to re-record some vocal parts, the piano, change the arrangement ... so we did. all the hard work for nothing. it's the kinda i-can't-decide-and-can't-let-a-song-go type of client. happened twice now. drives me insane! i tell him to pay the bill as the song is finished and if he wants to re-do it he got to pay again. same thing happened twice for two songs. both songs never got released ... although they are mastered and finished. now he as asked me if i wanted to record a new song for him :-) i am confident it will all happen again, drives me insane!
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Post by notneeson on Nov 23, 2019 9:46:28 GMT -6
I had a client flip out on me because he couldn’t change his mixes once he got them home, as in he never communicated this, but somehow expected me to mix ITB with only stock avid plugins. He seemed to think that was a normal request, like, duh. Gets on his high horse. And I do mean high, pretty sure this dude was baked most of the time.
I had said changes were no problem, but I was thinking recalls, not remixing at his home. He yells at me and says he has to get this ready for mastering next month. I yell back, cuz don’t yell at me A hole, but then align on a solution.
So I rendered out every sample and plugin i was using and rebalanced all the mixes anew as they weren’t getting my summing mixer and two buss treatments any longer and handed off the sessions. Takes a day or two, but not full days, just evenings.
At which point he tells me they’re recutting all the drums because their new guy is so much better than the old drummer. And by the way, he’s going to mix at the new drummers studio, on a console.
More time goes by.
We are supposed to get lunch, but neither of us follows up. A year goes by.
I run into the guy and ask how the project is going. He says almost done but he decided to go the lo fi route and mix at home. Oh yeah? Well I hope you’ll get it professionally mastered. Yep he says, I’m sending it to Sterling.
Shoot me.
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Post by swurveman on Nov 23, 2019 10:20:40 GMT -6
I’m with others that suggest to enquirer what he listened on and if he heard these problems on different sound systems. I also ask if the bass or treble has been adjusted on the system clients listen on.
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Post by EmRR on Nov 23, 2019 10:21:32 GMT -6
I had to mix a record through a set of HPF's once because the guy just didn't like bass. Whadayado? It was then mastered by a friend of his who just crushed it to death, any loud/quiet dynamics got inverted, sounded really stupid. I offered to pay for real mastering myself, didn't go for it. The roughs sound better......
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 23, 2019 11:32:44 GMT -6
i get way worse request from a client: song is mixed and mastered - everybody happy. than 1 month later he wants to re-record some vocal parts, the piano, change the arrangement ... so we did. all the hard work for nothing. it's the kinda i-can't-decide-and-can't-let-a-song-go type of client. happened twice now. drives me insane! i tell him to pay the bill as the song is finished and if he wants to re-do it he got to pay again. same thing happened twice for two songs. both songs never got released ... although they are mastered and finished. now he as asked me if i wanted to record a new song for him :-) i am confident it will all happen again, drives me insane! That's not so bad. I mean that's just the nature of what we do. We are a service industry and while it's always great to see projects get released. Not our call. Plus if he keep paying you...you've got steady income! Haha
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Post by EmRR on Nov 23, 2019 12:46:57 GMT -6
plate o' shrimp.....back page editorial in TapeOp.....
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Post by christopher on Nov 23, 2019 13:07:04 GMT -6
this is the worst, and don’t just give them what they think they want. Instead here’s where I’ve gotten the best results, but it’s super rare because people are broke: I’ll start asking a bunch of questions: what are they looking to achieve? Give me an example of the exact kick sound you want. The exact snare.... and we go through the whole song, track by track.. how do you want the panning? The volume and placement of each track. Are you happy? This kind of crap, it’s sooo much easier in person. (Online/text isn’t ideal but I still do it through a bunch of mp3s) Then if I hate something they want to do we stop and have a long boring talk, and I educate them about the trade offs. Explain perception and loudness and physics and etc. Also while we are talking about this stuff.. I slip in the fact that it’s gonna cost more, only they can decide if the money is worth being true to their art.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 23, 2019 13:48:35 GMT -6
i get way worse request from a client: song is mixed and mastered - everybody happy. than 1 month later he wants to re-record some vocal parts, the piano, change the arrangement ... so we did. all the hard work for nothing. it's the kinda i-can't-decide-and-can't-let-a-song-go type of client. happened twice now. drives me insane! i tell him to pay the bill as the song is finished and if he wants to re-do it he got to pay again. same thing happened twice for two songs. both songs never got released ... although they are mastered and finished. now he as asked me if i wanted to record a new song for him :-) i am confident it will all happen again, drives me insane! That's not so bad. I mean that's just the nature of what we do. We are a service industry and while it's always great to see projects get released. Not our call. Plus if he keep paying you...you've got steady income! Haha See, but this guy hired me to “produce” the song. I’m to the point where - at this price point - you hire me as a producer, you asked for my vision. I mean, I’m not being difficult, I’m just not going to chase rabbits.
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Post by Johnkenn on Nov 23, 2019 13:50:05 GMT -6
this is the worst, and don’t just give them what they think they want. Instead here’s where I’ve gotten the best results, but it’s super rare because people are broke: I’ll start asking a bunch of questions: what are they looking to achieve? Give me an example of the exact kick sound you want. The exact snare.... and we go through the whole song, track by track.. how do you want the panning? The volume and placement of each track. Are you happy? This kind of crap, it’s sooo much easier in person. (Online/text isn’t ideal but I still do it through a bunch of mp3s) Then if I hate something they want to do we stop and have a long boring talk, and I educate them about the trade offs. Explain perception and loudness and physics and etc. Also while we are talking about this stuff.. I slip in the fact that it’s gonna cost more, only they can decide if the money is worth being true to their art. I don’t know man, I think I’d just tell them i might not be their guy.
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Post by saltyjames on Nov 23, 2019 14:59:31 GMT -6
You didn't like my approach?
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Post by theshea on Nov 23, 2019 15:12:30 GMT -6
i get way worse request from a client: song is mixed and mastered - everybody happy. than 1 month later he wants to re-record some vocal parts, the piano, change the arrangement ... so we did. all the hard work for nothing. it's the kinda i-can't-decide-and-can't-let-a-song-go type of client. happened twice now. drives me insane! i tell him to pay the bill as the song is finished and if he wants to re-do it he got to pay again. same thing happened twice for two songs. both songs never got released ... although they are mastered and finished. now he as asked me if i wanted to record a new song for him :-) i am confident it will all happen again, drives me insane! That's not so bad. I mean that's just the nature of what we do. We are a service industry and while it's always great to see projects get released. Not our call. Plus if he keep paying you...you've got steady income! Haha well he refuses to pay full price since for him its not finished. solution would be to charge per hour but than, you know, it would be to expensive ...
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Post by saltyjames on Nov 23, 2019 15:45:19 GMT -6
the shea, Is that you playing Every tears a hit album? It's great!!!
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Post by adamjbrass on Nov 23, 2019 18:14:44 GMT -6
My usual method is to do whatever they ask, (if it’s in my wheelhouse, if it’s not, I make suggestions of what I can reasonably do, with the understanding I may opt out of the said request, if it’s not something I would do, as a service request) then, I pretty much try to achieve what they (the paying customer) want, but also, in the process of doing so, provide it in a way that suits my work aesthetic and makes me happy as well.
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Post by rowmat on Nov 23, 2019 19:49:38 GMT -6
I had a client who hired a session bass player and then insisted he take out all the high end from the bass while tracking.
I explained this was not a good idea as the bass would be inaudible when playing back on many portable devices with limited bass response and advised to leave any major EQ decisions until mixing.
Anyway I was overruled by the client who insisted I didn't know what I was talking about.
So we provide the roughs and then a week later she comes back into the studio asks why there is no bass on the mix.
I said there was and asked her what she was playing the track on. She said her iPhone and iPad speakers - not headphones.
She then held up her iPhone with the track playing and says "See. There's no bass!"
I then got her to Bluetooth her phone through our control monitors and "Voila! Bass!"
However she kept arguing why she couldn't hear it on her iPhone speakers and asked me what I was going to do about it and I pointed out that she got exactly what she asked for. ie Inaudible bass playback on cellphone speakers!
Those are the PITA clients I don't miss!
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