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Post by indiehouse on Nov 15, 2019 10:53:38 GMT -6
In my never ending quest of personal improvement, I’m trying to re-educate myself on mix height. How do you approach and execute this? Bass sits low with highs taller? How does that work?
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 11:09:38 GMT -6
In my never ending quest of personal improvement, I’m trying to re-educate myself on mix height. How do you approach and execute this? Bass sits low with highs taller? How does that work? What do you mean by "height"?
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Post by Tbone81 on Nov 15, 2019 11:28:52 GMT -6
I think you bring up something that's very interesting. I've noticed, in some really excellent mixes, things sitting "up" or "down". Vocals "floating" on top of guitars, which sit "on top" of bass. Things sound tall, not just wide or deep. Its a pyschoacoustic thing for sure. I couldn't offer any specific ways of getting there but I can say I've accidentally stumbled into it with my own work.
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Post by tasteliketape on Nov 15, 2019 12:11:27 GMT -6
I’ve been looking at this also . I was listing to reference track yesterday and noticed the bass guitar seemed to sit just above the Kik drum . Both were in the middle of course but the kik sounded just below the bass Gtr . maybe this ?
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Post by winetree on Nov 15, 2019 12:44:29 GMT -6
As the diagram shows each instrument is high and low passed and put in its frequency range. Spinal effects add the width and depth. Also the monitoring environment plays a big part in the playback spectrum. When set up properly, The highs on top, the mids in the middle and the lows at the bottom of the stereo image. Thus the feeling of height and depth. Not everything in the middle and flat in your face. It's a science to get that monitoring eviroment and talent to mix in it.
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 12:48:08 GMT -6
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Post by porkyman on Nov 15, 2019 12:48:08 GMT -6
Have you tried using tilt plugins/hardware like Ltl?
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Post by spradingaling on Nov 15, 2019 12:49:40 GMT -6
I have no idea how to intelligently answer the question, but I've started playing around with the SPL Vitalizer from Plugin Alliance and seems like it stretches the soundscape wider and taller.
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 12:49:58 GMT -6
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Post by tasteliketape on Nov 15, 2019 12:49:58 GMT -6
In response to winetree’s post . I totally agree I was listening in my new mix room and the height in the reference track became much more pronounced.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 15:27:06 GMT -6
So by "height" you're referring to frequency balance?
Interesting - I never thought of it as "height", not in the way one thinks of "depth", which is forward or back in the mix (generally determined by a combination of level and delay/reverberation), as it would be on a stage. To me the music takes place on a stage, where there's depth, certainly, and right to left placement (unless you're in mono), but "height"? I've been on a lot of stages, but "height" never entered into the placement of instruments, unless you maybe had some instrument in a Peter Pan flying harness. Perhaps some sort of Pink Floydian effect, where you send a rocket over the heads of the audience (like they did in the DSOM live show), but that's not something you usually have in most music.
I usually see/hear frequency balance in terms of "color". if anything. It's hard for me to visualize it in terms of "height". And semantically "height" and "depth" are two directions in the same plane, not two different planes.
To me having more high frequency content on an instrument or vocal doesn't make it "higher", just "brighter" or in some cases tinnier or thinner. Color, not "physical" placement.
I don't understand. Maybe I'm too old, or maybe I just didn't take enough psychedelics when I was young and still did such things.
EDIT: Now, if your mixing for something like the Meyer Constellation system, which does 3 dimensional acoustic architectural modeling, THEN you definitely do have a dimension of height. But normal music mixing doesn't get near that sort of thing. (My friend Joey Swails is one of the engineers associated with the Constellation installation at Zellerbach hall in Berkeley...)
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 15:34:39 GMT -6
As the diagram shows each instrument is high and low passed and put in its frequency range. Spinal effects add the width and depth. Also the monitoring environment plays a big part in the playback spectrum. When set up properly, The highs on top, the mids in the middle and the lows at the bottom of the stereo image. Thus the feeling of height and depth. Not everything in the middle and flat in your face. It's a science to get that monitoring eviroment and talent to mix in it. When you listen to a live performance the bass instruments do not sound physically lower than the midrange and treble. Everything is more or less in the same plane. And if I heard a musical playback that somehow seemed arranged in such a manner I'd probably find it unnatural and disconcerting.
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Post by drbill on Nov 15, 2019 15:42:45 GMT -6
I think the height thing is an invention of mix engineering classes / sales programs / AE schools.. Honestly, I've never though of it that way in my life. Maybe I hear the same things, but think of them differently. But hey.....ready to learn something new if there is such a thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 15:47:49 GMT -6
I’ve been looking at this also . I was listing to reference track yesterday and noticed the bass guitar seemed to sit just above the Kik drum . Both were in the middle of course but the kik sounded just below the bass Gtr . maybe this ? That diagram makes zero sense to me. The hi hat in my drummer's kit does not magically float up by the ceiling and I certainly would not want to represent it that way in a mix. And the kick drum and the bass amp sit side by side, on the same general plane as the guitar amp and keyboard.
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Post by soundintheround on Nov 15, 2019 16:04:08 GMT -6
There is a book (and video tutorial) on this.... back when I was very gullible I actually bought the book looking for advice. Unfortunately mixing, at least for me, did not turn out to be a series of placing computer generated 'bubbles' in some virtual landscape. In fact I feel mixing these days in general is way over-hyped. But hey check it out, enjoy
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 16:14:07 GMT -6
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Post by tasteliketape on Nov 15, 2019 16:14:07 GMT -6
Ok first I should have explained the above diagram was for a song by the Gorillaz from there mix engineer . But I thought it was just a different way to think about frequencies and instrument placements In the end it’s the song and my ears that count . Also I won’t say never but, so far even in my very very limited experience I wouldn’t mix a hi hat on top or even up the middle but I don’t do that type of music . I was listening to Big Head Todd and the monster’s song These Days without you and definitely I can hear the kik a little in front and below the bass guitar . Maybe it’s a voulume thing I don’t know but I would like too.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 15, 2019 16:36:27 GMT -6
I mix with height all the time in Auro3D though...so...yeah.. Stereo...never think of it that way either.
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Post by wiz on Nov 15, 2019 16:54:33 GMT -6
In my pre Bricasti days...I accomplished a lot of what you are seeking with three reverbs.
All were Convolution type.
I had 3 busses set up
Buss 1, was a ROOM type. Say IR of Large Wood Room , from Lexicon. All instruments would get sent to this post fader, in varying amounts... This placed everything in the same sonic space.
Buss 2 was a PLATE verb. This gave depth. This would give me a "Back wall" of the sonic room to move things away from.
Buss 3 was a HALL reverb, this gave HEIGHT.
Cheers
Wiz
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 17:47:14 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by indiehouse on Nov 15, 2019 17:47:14 GMT -6
In my pre Bricasti days...I accomplished a lot of what you are seeking with three reverbs. All were Convolution type. I had 3 busses set up Buss 1, was a ROOM type. Say IR of Large Wood Room , from Lexicon. All instruments would get sent to this post fader, in varying amounts... This placed everything in the same sonic space. Buss 2 was a PLATE verb. This gave depth. This would give me a "Back wall" of the sonic room to move things away from. Buss 3 was a HALL reverb, this gave HEIGHT. Cheers Wiz What’s your verb setup now?
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 18:00:40 GMT -6
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Post by tasteliketape on Nov 15, 2019 18:00:40 GMT -6
I mix with height all the time in Auro3D though...so...yeah.. Stereo...never think of it that way either. I also I’m 6ft 6 lol
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 18:25:07 GMT -6
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Post by porkyman on Nov 15, 2019 18:25:07 GMT -6
Or izotope visual mixer.
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Post by wiz on Nov 15, 2019 19:02:57 GMT -6
In my pre Bricasti days...I accomplished a lot of what you are seeking with three reverbs. All were Convolution type. I had 3 busses set up Buss 1, was a ROOM type. Say IR of Large Wood Room , from Lexicon. All instruments would get sent to this post fader, in varying amounts... This placed everything in the same sonic space. Buss 2 was a PLATE verb. This gave depth. This would give me a "Back wall" of the sonic room to move things away from. Buss 3 was a HALL reverb, this gave HEIGHT. Cheers Wiz What’s your verb setup now? Bricasti and a plate and delays
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Mix Height
Nov 15, 2019 20:11:34 GMT -6
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wiz likes this
Post by indiehouse on Nov 15, 2019 20:11:34 GMT -6
What’s your verb setup now? Bricasti and a plate and delays Bricasti for room?
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 20:58:13 GMT -6
There is a book (and video tutorial) on this.... back when I was very gullible I actually bought the book looking for advice. Unfortunately mixing, at least for me, did not turn out to be a series of placing computer generated 'bubbles' in some virtual landscape. In fact I feel mixing these days in general is way over-hyped. But hey check it out, enjoy Any idiot can write a book or make a video. Ethen Winer proved that.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 21:06:21 GMT -6
I mix with height all the time in Auro3D though...so...yeah.. Stereo...never think of it that way either. Well, I've never heard of Auro 3D before, but after a quick perusing of their website, yeah, in a "mix for video" format.
I don't think that's what's the original post was about. And, altough I only looked at it briefly, it did not appear to have jack sh!t to do with "frequency mishegoss". It's a mix for high level movie theater technology. Totally different thing.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 15, 2019 21:12:24 GMT -6
EARS, NOT EYES!
I sat through the video. Seems like idiocy.
Sales pablum for gullible newbies.
Of course I was only listening on my computer speakers - a pair of lowly KRKs.
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Post by Blackdawg on Nov 16, 2019 1:29:50 GMT -6
I mix with height all the time in Auro3D though...so...yeah.. Stereo...never think of it that way either. Well, I've never heard of Auro 3D before, but after a quick perusing of their website, yeah, in a "mix for video" format.
I don't think that's what's the original post was about. And, altough I only looked at it briefly, it did not appear to have jack sh!t to do with "frequency mishegoss". It's a mix for high level movie theater technology. Totally different thing.
Sort of. It's just an immersive format like Atmos. Not just theater. I'm doing music with it. And it is used as a literal sense of height. 4speakers above you after all. And of course I was just poking fun at the moment since I do literally mix with height channels but the main topic is for a stereo spectrum.
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