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Post by christopher on Aug 14, 2019 15:58:36 GMT -6
Is there anything to it? For some reason I thought 444 was used in classical music, I’m not sure where I heard that. A quick search online shows concert pitch being 440. Huh. Anyway, my client sings perfectly in 444 but all the instruments were tuned to 440. It’s been a head scratcher. Any experience with this?
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Post by tasteliketape on Aug 14, 2019 16:11:30 GMT -6
Just thought this was interesting Quote: The only evidence for Mozart’s A comes from an ancient tuning fork from 1780 with the tone of A=421.6 Hz. This tuning fork belonged to the Viennese piano builder Johann Andreas Stein, the leading piano maker in Vienna at the time, who was responsible for Mozart's pianos as well as Haydn’s and Beethoven’s. It is likely that they have all used A=421.6Hz.
Handel’s personal pitch fork was found 30 years earlier in England and was tuned to A=422.5Hz - pretty close to Mozart! and pretty far from 432 Hz.
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2019 16:28:29 GMT -6
Is there anything to it? For some reason I thought 444 was used in classical music, I’m not sure where I heard that. A quick search online shows concert pitch being 440. Huh. Anyway, my client sings perfectly in 444 but all the instruments were tuned to 440. It’s been a head scratcher. Any experience with this? Some EU orchestras tune up to 444. Or at least they used to. Unless your client has perfect pitch, tuned to 444 (unusual), I'd think he/she should be able to adapt. I used to just say they sang sharp. LOL
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Post by christopher on Aug 14, 2019 17:11:58 GMT -6
Ok thank you! She does have perfect pitch, her main instrument is concert piano which she’s been playing since 4. Her parents were opera singers if I remember right? So she’s been into classical music her whole life. Her favorite band is Zepplin though and she likes to play drums and sing. She writes the songs in notation in her head for the band to play. So now I wonder. I just checked whole lotta love and the guitar intro feels right but a little dull to me when I played in unison with 440. Tuned a little bit sharper seems to be sweeter. Hmmmm.. would the organs they tuned to be 444? I’ll have to think about this some more.
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Post by M57 on Aug 14, 2019 17:17:30 GMT -6
I remember back in music school, where the students who had perfect pitch and would otherwise ace a lot of ear-training exercises were given music in one key and told to sing it in another. Or told, "Here are the notes (or the chord) ..and here's middle C" >>hums pitch other than C<< What are the notes? etc." The idea was to get them to actually hear the intervals, and not just parrot the notes. I suppose some of them might have been able to "cheat" and transpose everything on the fly, but most of them told me it worked. My point: Musicians should be able to adjust brains to a relative pitch - it shouldn't matter if they're vocalists or horn players. Otherwise, how could orchestras play on period instruments, or even play in different orchestras for that matter? And don't even get me started on how different the A's are up and down the piano depending on the stretch. 4 cents? Gimme a break!
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Post by christopher on Aug 14, 2019 17:39:19 GMT -6
Just to clarify, she can adjust. I’ve been sucking at giving her the right monitor mix. It’s a learning process, a new thing for her and we are learning what kind of mix works best. Naturally she is slightly sharp on everything. Alone it works, start piling in the overdubs everything turns to garbage.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 14, 2019 17:53:49 GMT -6
The wiki page on concert tuning is fascinating. Different orchestras in the US still use different tunings, and it has meandered all over the place at different times/ locations.
Cheers, Geoff
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Post by drbill on Aug 14, 2019 17:56:18 GMT -6
Ok thank you! She does have perfect pitch, her main instrument is concert piano which she’s been playing since 4. Her parents were opera singers if I remember right? So she’s been into classical music her whole life. Her favorite band is Zepplin though and she likes to play drums and sing. She writes the songs in notation in her head for the band to play. So now I wonder. I just checked whole lotta love and the guitar intro feels right but a little dull to me when I played in unison with 440. Tuned a little bit sharper seems to be sweeter. Hmmmm.. would the organs they tuned to be 444? I’ll have to think about this some more. no. The organs would not be 444. But her piano may have been tuned high all her life. Unusual if she's from the states, but not impossible. It's of course up to the piano tuner, but tuning to 444 in the US without specific instruction would be a big no, no and I'd be ***** if they tuned my piano like that. In your circumstance, perfect pitch referenced to 444 is going to be a nightmare for her if she lives in the US. The guys I know who have PP, are haunted constantly by out of tune (referenced to 440 perfect), guitars, all instruments. It's not a thing to be enjoyed FME. But somehow they get around it in professional situations. They are not happy though. Now great RELATIVE pitch is awesome!
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Post by christopher on Aug 14, 2019 19:03:47 GMT -6
Oh man.. what a subject, did you know 440 is evil started by Rockefeller and caused the world wars and mind control of the populace? And that 432 is the golden frequency that created the universe and Nautilus shells? 444 saved Paul McCartney’s career after he tried 440 and his album sales tanked, went back to 444 and he was saved. And you can order your own healing tuning forks in 432 and 444 on Amazon today !
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 14, 2019 19:13:33 GMT -6
The wiki page on concert tuning is fascinating. Different orchestras in the US still use different tunings, and it has meandered all over the place at different times/ locations. Cheers, Geoff Not orchestras that frequently play with fixed pitch instruments, for example (but not limited to) organs.
I don't even understand why this would be an issue in the present age.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 14, 2019 19:23:02 GMT -6
The wiki page on concert tuning is fascinating. Different orchestras in the US still use different tunings, and it has meandered all over the place at different times/ locations. Cheers, Geoff Not orchestras that frequently play with fixed pitch instruments, for example (but not limited to) organs.
I don't even understand why this would be an issue in the present age.
According to this the N.Y. Philharmonic uses 442. If true, weird. Cheers, Geoff
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 14, 2019 19:45:33 GMT -6
Certain songs may sound slightly out of tune when played with due to artists intentionally tuning strings to be just intoned on open intervals or certain fretted notes, vs tempered. Of course, the rest of the notes on the fretboard won’t be in tune. Great example of this is Scar Tissue by Red Hot Chili Peppers. Frusciante clearly tunes (or de-tuned) for the opening chord to be in tune vs tempered.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 14, 2019 20:00:31 GMT -6
Not orchestras that frequently play with fixed pitch instruments, for example (but not limited to) organs.
I don't even understand why this would be an issue in the present age.
According to this the N.Y. Philharmonic uses 442. If true, weird. Cheers, Geoff Evidently they don't play with organs tuned to standard or modern electronic instruments.
Odd.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 14, 2019 20:04:18 GMT -6
It should also be noted that tuning forks are not 100% stable references.
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Post by Bat Lanyard on Aug 14, 2019 21:00:28 GMT -6
And that Amadeus is one of the greatest films of all-time. (Not the Director's Cut though, which trashes up the magic of the released version.)
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Post by christopher on Aug 15, 2019 1:15:39 GMT -6
Certain songs may sound slightly out of tune when played with due to artists intentionally tuning strings to be just intoned on open intervals or certain fretted notes, vs tempered. Of course, the rest of the notes on the fretboard won’t be in tune. Great example of this is Scar Tissue by Red Hot Chili Peppers. Frusciante clearly tunes (or de-tuned) for the opening chord to be in tune vs tempered. his tuning has always been perfectly screwed up, in a good way. Honestly I just thought he didn't know how to tune. But that doesn't make sense with all the labels and producers around. It must be right it makes more sense its intentionally funked up. A lot of examples out there seem to sound ok or even great a little out of tune. It never dawned on me there might be an intentional aspect to it.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 15, 2019 6:26:55 GMT -6
Oh yes the messing up are intentional and he’s tuning to the actual intervals rather than the correct tuning by just intonation. Tune your E string to a tuner then play a G chord and tune all the strings by ear. Then play a barre D or something. If you have a good ear the G will sound better tuned by ear than the open strings by tuner... but the D will sound bad. What you’ll find is that the amount of adjustment your ear wants on the G is the true chord by the algebraic ratios of the frequencies rather than the close-enough-to-work in all keys approach of just intonation. But it only works on the one chord. However much you sharp or flat strings to ring true will be out the other way on another chord.
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Post by M57 on Aug 15, 2019 7:02:06 GMT -6
I tune my guitars differently for almost every song. It's not just key dependent. I'm considering which chords I play the most, open strings, and probably most importantly, which chords or notes sound the most out of tune. No tuning is ever perfect.
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Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 16, 2019 5:36:20 GMT -6
Just as an aside - James Taylor’s method of tuning acoustic guitars works pretty well for me on most acoustics. Makes moving up and down the neck sound pretty good. I made a custom preset for it on my Peterson and can’t remember the amount of cents flat you tune certain strings, but it’s a quick google search away if anybody is interested.
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Post by svart on Aug 16, 2019 7:16:17 GMT -6
I think the whole 432 vs 440 thing is just a bunch of folks who have heard certain songs so many times they're no longer exciting. Changing the tuning on a well-known and possibly beloved song makes it new and fresh to the ears once again.
Otherwise, if you've never heard something before, it wouldn't matter what tuning it was in, you'd never know it could be different. Notice that the "proof" of magical tunings are always a comparison of new and old..
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Post by M57 on Aug 16, 2019 7:22:05 GMT -6
Notice that the "proof" of magical tunings are always a comparison of new and old.. Hmm.. and also microphones/pre-amps etc. >>ducks for cover and waits for incoming<<
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Post by svart on Aug 16, 2019 7:31:17 GMT -6
Notice that the "proof" of magical tunings are always a comparison of new and old.. Hmm.. and also microphones/pre-amps etc. >>ducks for cover and waits for incoming<< True. Explains the gear list syndrome. New is exciting. Once you get used to it, it doesn't sound as good and you need new again. Rinse, repeat.
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Post by Ward on Aug 16, 2019 7:43:42 GMT -6
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