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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2019 12:22:54 GMT -6
Hi guys, I posted this for myself, not in partnership with a manufacturer. Obviously I can't control who joins in on a thread, and I'm glad to hear from any manufacturer online because it's a tough crowd most times, and most steer clear. I'm friendly with a number of manufacturers and I'm one of many experienced ears they reach out to occasionally. This is a natural thing, I'm not world famous, but I'm not unknown, we attend trade shows, like some of the same music and productions and generally love really good sounding gear. I'm friendly with Joshua from Stam in the same way I'm friendly with a dozen manufacturers. I want to see them all win because they're doing some wonderful things within my budget. Also, I'm aware there were some quality control disputes between Stam and Heiserman, but I had no personal issues with them. In fact as i mentioned earlier I chose the Heiserman cap when asked for an opinion a long while ago. I'm sorry about the confusing nature with different tubes in mics with different capsules, I know it's not exactly a perfect shootout, but it seems people here enjoyed what was posted. For those who don't post too often, try putting something like this together, record a dozen tracks, mix tracks, bounce, upload, notate and share here. You'll see it ain't as easy as it looks, so a little slack would be appreciated. <chuckle>
There are no "perfect shootouts".
In fact it can be excrutiatigly difficult to set up a shootout that isn't wildly off-base in at least one way or another, which is why I generally put no stock in any of them except for occasional amusement purposes.
Differences in tubes is but one way that shootouts can be deceptive. Another is that very few mics will have the same (or similar) optimal positioning from a source. And different mics react differently to different loads.
Etc, etc.
What all this means is that in attempting to make all things equal in the comparison none of the mics really gets demoed to its full potential, but if you try to optimize each mic you open a big can of worms of inconsistant variables.
Auditioning in person under real conditions is the only sure way to evaluate mics, and even then there are subjectivity questions and what sounds stellar one day may sound less stellar another for reasons having nothing to do with the gear...
It's a conundrum. Pass the popcorn, please?
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2019 12:24:33 GMT -6
Ragan,just listened again, and the tracks with the T.C cap and the Tele tube sound the most like the Max Mod 67! No wonder you dig it :-) Is it a "new Tele" tube or a real Tele tube?
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2019 12:33:17 GMT -6
Guys, once these (quality) capsules are closely in the 67 Ballpark/Spectrum... For most users, can't you just EQ/process them for exceptional results? (I still appreciate everyone contributing comments & clips nonetheless) Thanks, Chris I doubt it. There are factors in play beyond simple frequency response, such as the balance of harmonics.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 19, 2019 12:40:07 GMT -6
the capsule polarization voltage on u67 is also derived from the b+, so I wouldn’t want a 10% change. That likely effects the sound of the capsule and noise specs etc. (Emrr, Is there a Neumann spec that suggests a tolerance +/- 10% on the b+?). Pretty much anything tube is cool with +/-10% variation, Neumann doesn't say it and did not have to say it, it's a blanket assumption of the technology at hand. The only place anything gets that tweaky is weird kludges like the U47 filament value, or broadcast compression and transmission circuits with metering who's accuracy reflects on legally allowable maximum standards, and those circuits use regulated power supplies to overcome line voltage variations. U67 PSU isn't regulated, but it has the mains voltage step 117/127/220/240VAC adjustment which is a clue they considered that 'good enough'. A lot of US broadcast tube gear has steps like that, and some of it has regulation too. 210V B+, highest polarization voltage 120V for figure 8, 59V for cardioid, eh. Seems overly literal, given the other huge list of variables.....like a tube drawing way too much or way too little, then you adjust the B+, but the tube is whack and you haven't actually addressed 75V on it's plate.....these numbers aren't holy grail, they are typical values and NOTHING in old tube circuit world was literal and exacting.....as someone who techs a lot of stuff from old tube world. I think literal becomes more crucial and prudent when the tubes cost a ton and face scarcity, but cost/scarcity are the primary reason. Really, the thing with capsule polarization voltage is you can't measure it with readily available tools as it's too high impedance and most accessible test gear sags the actual value, and virtually no 2M2 and 3M3 resistor from that era actually reads at that EXACT value (you can read the 59V there with a standard meter), so.....the polarization doesn't read those exact values either......and you can't measure them at the capsule after the 60M and 400M resistors.....so chasing the PSU 210V is a bit distant from anything that might seem crucial in that regard, in my book at least. To someone else, I'm surely wrong, but these aren't day to day problems in my studio with my microphones. My early '30's Carrier tube condenser was originally battery power, and in putting a modern supply on it I listened in a range from 150-200V. 150V was definitely a lesser sound, but 185-200V was no difference to the ear. The polarization and B+ are one in the same in that mic. The tubes are directly heated triodes, which are one type that's been shown to perform better somewhat under-heated. Would an old fashioned VTVM (vacuum tube volt meter) be adequate for the measurement? I have an old HP monster, matches my tube HP sine wave generator.....
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Post by EmRR on Aug 20, 2019 7:48:22 GMT -6
you can't measure them at the capsule after the 60M and 400M resistors Would an old fashioned VTVM (vacuum tube volt meter) be adequate for the measurement? I have an old HP monster, matches my tube HP sine wave generator..... Not many things will measure at 400M impedance, you need bridging load higher than that. You can measure resistive divider points downstream. Most old VTVM are 20M if I recall.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 20, 2019 11:09:04 GMT -6
Would an old fashioned VTVM (vacuum tube volt meter) be adequate for the measurement? I have an old HP monster, matches my tube HP sine wave generator..... Not many things will measure at 400M impedance, you need bridging load higher than that. You can measure resistive divider points downstream. Most old VTVM are 20M if I recall. 400 Meg? Wow! What would you use to measure that?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 3, 2019 13:20:00 GMT -6
Nice update email from Josh today about status of new caps, bodies etc.,scheduled to ship mid October.
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Post by Quint on Sept 3, 2019 14:57:45 GMT -6
Nice update email from Josh today about status of new caps, bodies etc.,scheduled to ship mid October. No email on my end.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 3, 2019 15:13:08 GMT -6
Nice update email from Josh today about status of new caps, bodies etc.,scheduled to ship mid October. No email on my end. Dito. Could somebody paraphrase the mail?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 3, 2019 16:08:05 GMT -6
Hey, I just wanted to give you a quick heads up on your SA67 built. I received confirmation today that the bodies will be here early next month (first week of October) and we have finalized the 4th revision of the K67 Tim Campbell K67 replica which sounds virtually identical to the vintage Neumann capsule. I am now ordering the capsules from Tim so the earliest you will get your mic is the 15th of October and the 30th of October at the latest. I have already began making the PCB's and testing tubes so everything is ready to mount when the final parts get here I can't thank you enough for your patience with us, we are working extremely hard on improving our service an turnaround times and I am confident you will be very pleased when you compare this mic to an original U67, we have 9 of them, including pristine units with original tubes from the 70's and I honestly can not tell them apart from the SA67 If you ever want to talk feel free to request a call back and either me or Camila will be happy to phone you Any others doubts kindly contact info@stamaudio.com , this is and outbound email only to insure it does not go to your spam box My warmest regards -- Joshua van der Stam CEO Stam Audio www.stamaudio.com
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Post by mike on Sept 3, 2019 19:51:23 GMT -6
I think I neglected to make one important thing clear. The T.C. capsule SA67 is considered a prototype. Stam is getting feedback from me and all the posts and will make adjustments if he thinks it's necessary. He already has a slightly darker voiced Tim Campbell capsule SA67 that he's going to send to me to try. Once that arrives, it should be clear which one works best for me and Stam will choose his final production version. I adjusted the title of the thread to reflect this.
Hey Martin, any update on when you might get the slightly darker voiced TC cap to try out yet?
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Post by hadaja on Sept 3, 2019 23:23:37 GMT -6
Does the 4th revision still include the chinese made to order power supplies or do you now make these from scratch in Chile?
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Post by stam on Sept 4, 2019 1:58:31 GMT -6
Does the 4th revision still include the chinese made to order power supplies or do you now make these from scratch in Chile? I remember soldering each component on the PCB (Made in Canada by Dany), assembling each Power Supply, wiring all connections, adjusting and testing with my own hands and ears for every single SA67 I have made since the beginning. So, the 4th revision will include the same hand made power supply made in Chile as every SA67 I have made.
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Post by hadaja on Sept 4, 2019 3:41:07 GMT -6
Thanks for the update
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 4, 2019 4:24:12 GMT -6
Hey, I just wanted to give you a quick heads up on your SA67 built. I received confirmation today that the bodies will be here early next month (first week of October) and we have finalized the 4th revision of the K67 Tim Campbell K67 replica which sounds virtually identical to the vintage Neumann capsule. I am now ordering the capsules from Tim so the earliest you will get your mic is the 15th of October and the 30th of October at the latest. I have already began making the PCB's and testing tubes so everything is ready to mount when the final parts get here I can't thank you enough for your patience with us, we are working extremely hard on improving our service an turnaround times and I am confident you will be very pleased when you compare this mic to an original U67, we have 9 of them, including pristine units with original tubes from the 70's and I honestly can not tell them apart from the SA67 If you ever want to talk feel free to request a call back and either me or Camila will be happy to phone you Any others doubts kindly contact info@stamaudio.com , this is and outbound email only to insure it does not go to your spam box My warmest regards -- Joshua van der Stam CEO Stam Audio www.stamaudio.comDo you have one of these on order?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 4, 2019 5:30:16 GMT -6
i had some time ago but thought I had cancelled it, so I sent them an email to confirm. I have probably confused them as I kept on asking questions about the mike anyway.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Sept 4, 2019 8:24:40 GMT -6
I think I neglected to make one important thing clear. The T.C. capsule SA67 is considered a prototype. Stam is getting feedback from me and all the posts and will make adjustments if he thinks it's necessary. He already has a slightly darker voiced Tim Campbell capsule SA67 that he's going to send to me to try. Once that arrives, it should be clear which one works best for me and Stam will choose his final production version. I adjusted the title of the thread to reflect this.
Hey Martin, any update on when you might get the slightly darker voiced TC cap to try out yet?
I think it will be soon, but maybe a couple of weeks. Stam will need time to install, break-in, test the newest capsules and ship.
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Post by mike on Sept 4, 2019 9:24:33 GMT -6
Hey Martin, any update on when you might get the slightly darker voiced TC cap to try out yet?
I think it will be soon, but maybe a couple of weeks. Stam will need time to install, break-in, test the newest capsules and ship.
Looking forward to hearing this one. Thanks for the thread and audio clips, much appreciated!
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Post by soundintheround on Sept 5, 2019 9:44:11 GMT -6
i had some time ago but thought I had cancelled it, so I sent them an email to confirm. I have probably confused them as I kept on asking questions about the mike anyway. I've been in that boat before...... I purchased a home and had a kid in the span of time that his mic I pre-ordered was 'starting' to ship lol.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 5, 2019 21:23:28 GMT -6
What a whirling dervish of a thread! My favorite bits are the attempts at describing what's desirable and typical of a vintage U67.
I thought all the mic/tube combinations sounded completely different. I thought both capsules had attributes I liked in various clips. The Heiserman had a bolder sound like jcoutu said. The TC 'prototype' I thought was tilted a bit leaner/brighter but also smoother in a way, more "vintagey."
I can see why Stam is having a hard time with this design. Both capsules have promise.
The Heiserman is apparently available for $250 and I'm very tempted to buy one to try in a DIY microphone build.
And just for fun, I don't think the Stam sounds like a Neumann in the shootout video. But I guess that's a can of worms? Other people have mentioned as much already.
You can call it a "clone" but like a lot of clones, it's still an approximation of someone else's work and manufacturing. Especially noticeable in highly sensitive audio gear such as microphones.
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Post by stam on Sept 6, 2019 5:50:23 GMT -6
What a whirling dervish of a thread! My favorite bits are the attempts at describing what's desirable and typical of a vintage U67. I thought all the mic/tube combinations sounded completely different. I thought both capsules had attributes I liked in various clips. The Heiserman had a bolder sound like jcoutu said. The TC 'prototype' I thought was tilted a bit leaner/brighter but also smoother in a way, more "vintagey." I can see why Stam is having a hard time with this design. Both capsules have promise. The Heiserman is apparently available for $250 and I'm very tempted to buy one to try in a DIY microphone build. And just for fun, I don't think the Stam sounds like a Neumann in the shootout video. But I guess that's a can of worms? Other people have mentioned as much already. You can call it a "clone" but like a lot of clones, it's still an approximation of someone else's work and manufacturing. Especially noticeable in highly sensitive audio gear such as microphones. I don't believe we are having a hard time at all, it's just a microphone, it's not complicated, you just have to use your ears a million times over and over again. You don't think the Stam sounds like s U67 on this video ?
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 6, 2019 6:13:55 GMT -6
Nice: for me C,B and A.
A was a little mid forward, so not as clear as B or A. A pitch of negative eq could sort that?
I thought B nicely linear and good air but that C seemed to have that and some extra articulation/detail/ precision ?
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Post by stormymondays on Sept 6, 2019 7:03:28 GMT -6
On an informal listen, A sounds just like my U67 reissue. Dark on top and very very detailed in the mids.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 6, 2019 9:29:08 GMT -6
I assumed the Stam was mic B but I could be proven wrong of course! I read a comment that Mic A was the vintage U67. I thought mic C sounded more like Mic A, and Mic B sounded more like what I expect to hear from Stam/Heiserman based on other clips I've heard.
I could be completely wrong of course.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 6, 2019 9:31:27 GMT -6
stam I think you guys are doing a good job with these, don't get me wrong about that.
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