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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 29, 2019 12:38:01 GMT -6
Funny in what way sirthought?
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2019 12:41:31 GMT -6
Fascinating thread. Been buried with work. I'll listen tonight to all this... Chris
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Post by phantom on Jul 29, 2019 12:58:33 GMT -6
This is one of the funniest threads on RGO yet! Don't know about it being funny. But to me it's a very informative thread, specially with the audio examples posted by Martin.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 29, 2019 13:13:56 GMT -6
Thanks Phantom :-)
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jul 29, 2019 13:20:51 GMT -6
This second round of clips confirms to me that the tube played a big part in the sound of all of the clips.
The Siemens tube is just brighter, quite a bit.
Where the Heiserman sounded kind of dark in the clips (round 1) - it is not dark in round 2. In fact, if you just listen for sibilance.... the Heiserman now has sibilance/6-10k region and the TC cap doesn't. A reversal of the first set of clips.
I also think the capsules/mics sound much more similar to each other with TC/Telefunken and Heiserman/Siemens. I think that's what is inherently cool about tube mics like the 67 - the ability to change the sound using different tubes.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jul 29, 2019 13:36:39 GMT -6
I'll take that Heiserman with either tube over the TC. The TC sounds like it's lacking balls.
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Post by drbill on Jul 29, 2019 13:39:00 GMT -6
I have to admit, I'm feeling pretty lost at this point. The tube swap made some huge differences IMO. Almost making me feel like the capsule differences are minimal - or perhaps better articulated - the capsule is not making as much difference as the tube in this circumstance.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 29, 2019 13:52:25 GMT -6
It is hard to tell, I know. At my place, I'm prefering the more detailed Siemens tube sound, but do acknowledge it's a little bright. Stam Audio may send me another Tim Campbell cap SA67 that's voiced a little darker. That'll take a little while though.
It was weird that the Siemens tube gave the Heiserman cap around 4db or more gain..
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Post by drbill on Jul 29, 2019 13:56:25 GMT -6
At my place, I'm prefering the more detailed Siemens tube sound. That's cool, but realize, it will decidedly take you into Lovett territory, and far away from Townsend territory.
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Post by NoTomorrow on Jul 29, 2019 14:02:54 GMT -6
It is hard to tell, I know. At my place, I'm prefering the more detailed Siemens tube sound, but do acknowledge it's a little bright. Stam Audio may send me another Tim Campbell cap SA67 that's voiced a little darker. That's take a while though. It was weird that the Siemens tube gave the Heiserman cap around 4db or more gain.. I think you should maybe try a different Telefunken EF86 or Philips EF86 before you order another capsule seeing as how the tubes really affected both mics/capsules. I have both and will see if I can find a minute to record and upload a comparison of these 2 tubes with my Stam67 Heiserman.
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Post by timcampbell on Jul 29, 2019 14:27:07 GMT -6
There's always Mullard which the Phillips may be.
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Post by Ward on Jul 29, 2019 14:31:41 GMT -6
Totally agree. They say that a microphone's sound is mostly in the capsule . . . and well, the #1 here, the Heiserman is so much better it isn't even close. If this wasn't an advert for tskguy and mdmitch2 then it was a proclamation of how awesome their work is. Posted by Martin John Butler 5 hours ago uhh Ward, mic #1 is the Tim Campbell capsule.
Thanks Ward.
Totally agree. They say that a microphone's sound is mostly in the capsule . . . and well, the #1 here, the Heiserman is so much better it isn't even close. If this wasn't an advert for tskguy and mdmitch2 then it was a proclamation of how awesome their work is. I am glad to know you like Tim's so much better We worked very hard on it I will do a video soon vs the vintage 67 There was a slight mix up in my fingers tripping over keys. so in the interest of science I deleted my post. I am a fan of both Tim Campbell's and Eric Heiserman's and Matt Mitchell's work. And of course, Wave Dealer's awesome boards and tuning. I'll just leave it at that.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2019 14:32:17 GMT -6
In the video, with "the girl" singing, that Stam put out... The Heiserman capsule IMHO edged out that vintage 67. I would expect both Heiserman's and Tim's capsules to be both quite extraordinary.
To be honest, I'd favor whichever capsule stays a bit "darker' than the vintage 67, used in that video-as my voice is bright.
BTW there is some humor in this thread, as it's like trying to decide if Rocky Marciano, or Ali was the greatest Heavyweight. (for you boxing fans) Chris
P.S. This IS one of the best threads ever-RGO and elsewhere!
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2019 14:59:51 GMT -6
OK. IMHO it's a dead heat. I feel like Dr. Bill. So hard to tell. I'm thinking Heiserman for slightly extra rich tone one moment, then appreciating the small bit of extra detail of Tim's capsule the next. IOW the TC capsule sounds a little more "modern", the Heiserman a little more "vintage" in comparison. Hmm.. The 'ol "fullness" vs. "detail" thang. Kind of like when we discuss Advanced Audio 47's vs. the Warm WA-47... But the Heiserman and Tim Campbell capsules are not just excellent-They're both world class/superb! But I'd EQ/process either to hit that tone, of the Vintage 67, that MJB used. Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 29, 2019 15:19:33 GMT -6
I think I neglected to make one important thing clear. The T.C. capsule SA67 is considered a prototype. Stam is getting feedback from me and all the posts and will make adjustments if he thinks it's necessary. He already has a slightly darker voiced Tim Campbell capsule SA67 that he's going to send to me to try. Once that arrives, it should be clear which one works best for me and Stam will choose his final production version. I adjusted the title of the thread to reflect this.
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Post by Quint on Jul 29, 2019 15:25:20 GMT -6
I think I neglected to make one important thing clear. The T.C. capsule SA67 is considered a prototype. Stam is getting feedback from me and all the posts and will make adjustments if he thinks it's necessary. He already has a slightly darker voiced Tim Campbell capsule SA67 that he's going to send to me to try. Once that arrives, it should be clear which one works best for me. I adjusted the title of the thread to reflect this. I would be very interested in hearing that darker capsule. I've been holding out hope that this TC capsule would make the Stam 67 the mic I intended to buy. I decidedly DON'T want a brighter, more modern version of a 67. I want it as close to as possible with the original vintage 67s. I'm glad to hear this is only a prototype.
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Post by chessparov on Jul 29, 2019 17:08:35 GMT -6
Thanks for the clarification! As a backup idea otherwise, I'd be tempted to run that TC capsule through a quality tube pre. Like how Vincent goes U87ai>Demeter. IMHO that could sound awesome. Chris
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 29, 2019 17:29:35 GMT -6
I'm running the mics through the Dizengoff D4, which is a lovely tube pre that uses the Abbey Road REDD 47 circuit. My thinking was the U67 and the Abbey Road pres are classic sounds our ears have learned. I have the Stam SA73 Neve clone. That little pre sounds great too. I'll try that with the SA67 another time.
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Post by christopher on Jul 29, 2019 17:41:09 GMT -6
Sounds like a good mic! Voice is a tough one to replicate I’ve found. The vocalist I’m recording the last few months sounds different every week and I’m scratching my head wondering did I write down the wrong settings? Was the gain staging different? Placement that much different? One week it’s dark and thick, next time it’s super bright nasally. It’s been a learning lesson, probably could just be her voice which she is working on. And sorry I didn’t read the whole thread, and I’m not sure how this test was done, unfortunately a speaker playing back a source is the surest way to judge small difference. Anyway the real point I wanted to make is that it sounds really great on all the takes, a little EQ and gain staging, and I bet you are good.
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Post by damoongo on Jul 29, 2019 18:43:19 GMT -6
I'm running the mics through the Dizengoff D4, which is a lovely tube pre that uses the Abbey Road REDD 47 circuit. My thinking was the U67 and the Abbey Road pres are classic sounds our ears have learned. I have the Stam SA73 Neve clone. That little pre sounds great too. I'll try that with the SA67 another time. I really hope you took my advice of checking the heater voltages of the PSU’s after swapping tubes in the mics. They both need to be calibrated for the actual tube in the actual mic they are supplying power to. (6.3VDC in a u67.). Over or under heating the tube can contribute to the gain differences etc that you are encountering, not to mention affect tube life. Again, I think it would have been much easier to just swap head assemblies, no? Even then, you’d want to check the b+ as the capsule polarization voltage is derived from this.
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Post by mike on Jul 29, 2019 19:44:38 GMT -6
Allright......... here is a comparison of 2 different tubes in my Stam67 with Heiserman Capsule. The tubes are a Philips EF86 and a Telefunken EF86. To me they sound quite different and I'd like to hear what you guys think. One audio file for each tube - both 24bit, 44.1. Each audio file starts with spoken word, then vocal over music, then just vocal with reverb cut in/out at different spots. You'll see the gap in the waveform where the 3 examples are separated. Chain for spoken word is just Mic > CAPI VP28 (2520,1731) > Apollo > Pro Tools. No compression. Chain for sung vocal is Mic > CAPI VP28 > Serpent SA76 (blue stripe mode) > Apollo > Pro Tools. Compression was just 2:1 to protect the converters. It wasn't doing much. Name of the tube in filename in upper left. The Telefunken vocal is pitchier than the Philips, but cut me some slack..... I was running out of time. Link to files on Dropbox below: www.dropbox.com/s/e3qbtmpcfcotzg0/1aud-Stam67-PHILIPS-TUBE.wav?dl=0www.dropbox.com/s/ozz6hrl0muyp69x/1aud-Stam67-TeleFunk%20TUBE.wav?dl=0
To me it isn't close and the Telefunken tube I prefer much better between those 2 takes, thanks for doing it. I had just been thinking about this subject some remembering Ward I think on a 67 thread in the past posted him singing 3 takes of the same phrase through the stock tube in a 67 reissue, then a NOS Telefunken 806-S and a 806-s tubes,..... and to me the Telefunken tubes were noticeably better. Which makes sense to me kind of matching tubes from the same country around the same time as the original design. I was expecting the 806 in Martin's to step up a notch today when he switched them but didn't hear the same impact today and wonder about the strength or source of that specific 806 tube.
Of Martin's two mic's I prefer the TC cap and find your tube preference to match from what I've heard so far.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 29, 2019 19:53:14 GMT -6
I'm running the mics through the Dizengoff D4, which is a lovely tube pre that uses the Abbey Road REDD 47 circuit. My thinking was the U67 and the Abbey Road pres are classic sounds our ears have learned. I have the Stam SA73 Neve clone. That little pre sounds great too. I'll try that with the SA67 another time. I really hope you took my advice of checking the heater voltages of the PSU’s after swapping tubes in the mics. They both need to be calibrated for the actual tube in the actual mic they are supplying power to. (6.3VDC in a u67.). Over or under heating the tube can contribute to the gain differences etc that you are encountering, not to mention affect tube life. Again, I think it would have been much easier to just swap head assemblies, no? Even then, you’d want to check the b+ as the capsule polarization voltage is derived from this. How do you calibrate? In the PSU? Trimmer pot or something? Which pin am I measuring? Or does that depend on the mic? I’d love some more details. I want to measure my MK67 as I have tube swapped a lot.
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Post by damoongo on Jul 29, 2019 19:59:18 GMT -6
I really hope you took my advice of checking the heater voltages of the PSU’s after swapping tubes in the mics. They both need to be calibrated for the actual tube in the actual mic they are supplying power to. (6.3VDC in a u67.). Over or under heating the tube can contribute to the gain differences etc that you are encountering, not to mention affect tube life. Again, I think it would have been much easier to just swap head assemblies, no? Even then, you’d want to check the b+ as the capsule polarization voltage is derived from this. How do you calibrate? In the PSU? Trimmer pot or something? Which pin am I measuring? Or does that depend on the mic? Not sure about the Stam clones, but in my mid 60’s u67’s PSU’s (nu67’s) there are trim pots for the heater (filament) voltage. The b+ has no trimmer and you need to change resistors to get it right (210VDC off the top of my head). Disclaimer: Please be careful in there. Lethal DC voltages are present. If you are not used to working around high voltages, get a tech to do it and show you... These things can bite you even when unplugged from the AC outlet.
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Post by indiehouse on Jul 29, 2019 20:02:34 GMT -6
How do you calibrate? In the PSU? Trimmer pot or something? Which pin am I measuring? Or does that depend on the mic? Not sure about the Stam clones, but in my mid 60’s u67’s PSU’s (nu67’s) there are trim pots for the heater (filament) voltage. The b+ has no trimmer and you need to change resistors to get it right (210VDC off the top of my head). Disclaimer: Please be careful in there. Lethal DC voltages are present. If you are not used to working around high voltages, get a tech to do it and show you... These things can bite you even when unplugged from the AC outlet. No worries, I’ve got some years of experience under my belt. Just haven’t built a mic before, and not sure of the calibration process. I have a Max Kircher PSU.
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Post by damoongo on Jul 29, 2019 20:06:23 GMT -6
Not sure about the Stam clones, but in my mid 60’s u67’s PSU’s (nu67’s) there are trim pots for the heater (filament) voltage. The b+ has no trimmer and you need to change resistors to get it right (210VDC off the top of my head). Disclaimer: Please be careful in there. Lethal DC voltages are present. If you are not used to working around high voltages, get a tech to do it and show you... These things can bite you even when unplugged from the AC outlet. No worries, I’ve got some years of experience under my belt. Just haven’t built a mic before, and not sure of the calibration process. I have a Max Kircher PSU. Ok great. I just didn’t want future generations to read this thread and start poking around blindly! I guess I’d check the Max Kircher PSU documentation to see if it has a trimmer. And follow a schematic to find a point in the mic (tube socket if accessible) to measure the heater voltage. (Measuring at the supply is sometimes misleading.)
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