|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 19, 2019 16:32:47 GMT -6
If I put it up and hear a difference, I'll roll with that. Whether it's a plug or hardware. Doesn't matter to me. But from experience, all things being equal - 1176 plug vs. 1176 hardware for instance - the hardware wins 95% of the time. Its even simpler to my ear. When it comes to compression the attack and release times of the most software compressors sound nervous to me. I dont like it.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jun 19, 2019 16:37:17 GMT -6
once you hear it your can't un-hear it.
Hahaaa!! So true. Sometimes I wonder how many of the hard-core plug in advocates have ever worked in a real studio with real hardware. Curiosity on my part. Of course Andrew Scheps has, but I suspect his plugin passion is about convenience (being able to mix on his laptop and headphones anywhere), instant recall and $$. $$ has a lot to do with it. And remember that a lot (most) of those big name guys you see doing ads, endorsements, and demos are getting paid for the use of their name.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 19, 2019 16:37:20 GMT -6
once you hear it your can't un-hear it.
Hahaaa!! So true. Sometimes I wonder how many of the hard-core plug in advocates have ever worked in a real studio with real hardware. Curiosity on my part. Of course Andrew Scheps has, but I suspect his plugin passion is about convenience (being able to mix on his laptop and headphones anywhere), instant recall and $$. I've seen videos where Scheps said that the ability to work on multiple mixes at once, (to work on one for 20min, close, open another for an hour, close, work on the next etc) is more inspiring to him than any sonic benefit that HW has over plugins. To each his own.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 19, 2019 16:54:02 GMT -6
John's correct, blind audio tests are inherently inaccurate and they screw with your head.
I had a mix and compared UAD's Pultec to a Pultec hardware on the 2 bus. I set them all to sound their best. No contest, the hardware was richer, fuller, more polished and sounded like a finished record. You'd have to have a hearing disability not to hear the difference.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 19, 2019 16:58:14 GMT -6
Hahaaa!! So true. Sometimes I wonder how many of the hard-core plug in advocates have ever worked in a real studio with real hardware. Curiosity on my part. Of course Andrew Scheps has, but I suspect his plugin passion is about convenience (being able to mix on his laptop and headphones anywhere), instant recall and $$. I've seen videos where Scheps said that the ability to work on multiple mixes at once, (to work on one for 20min, close, open another for an hour, close, work on the next etc) is more inspiring to him than any sonic benefit that HW has over plugins. To each his own. i totally get that. I work that way as well. Especially when I'm writing. But also a bit when I'm mixing. Also, as a secondary point, I try to keep my hardware in what I feel is it's sweet spot for me. Then I don't have to touch it when jumping between mixes. Using ITB trims before and sometimes after the hardware allows me to drive into each piece without having to change up the hardware. If I need a little tweak or compression or EQ, I'll do that ITB, but the "sound" and major action is still coming from the hardware. A bit convoluted until you get the hang of it, but it allows me to use hardware at 90-95% the ease of an ITB recall.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 19, 2019 17:01:29 GMT -6
Also, as I believe you mentioned earlier, the way different hardware inter-reacts with each other is cool, unique, vibey - and totally (IME) unachievable with the software substitutes.
|
|
|
Post by matt on Jun 19, 2019 17:32:27 GMT -6
I've seen videos where Scheps said that the ability to work on multiple mixes at once, I try to keep my hardware in what I feel is it's sweet spot for me. Then I don't have to touch it when jumping between mixes. What Bill said. I realized some time ago that I end up "tweaking" my hardware to the same settings all the time. But then I'm not mixing multiple artists. I run a one-client studio: me. And my band, of course. If I crossed genres it might be a different thing but I don't see that happening. Rock, or Die.
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jun 19, 2019 17:46:36 GMT -6
Hahaaa!! So true. Sometimes I wonder how many of the hard-core plug in advocates have ever worked in a real studio with real hardware. Curiosity on my part. Of course Andrew Scheps has, but I suspect his plugin passion is about convenience (being able to mix on his laptop and headphones anywhere), instant recall and $$. I've seen videos where Scheps said that the ability to work on multiple mixes at once, (to work on one for 20min, close, open another for an hour, close, work on the next etc) is more inspiring to him than any sonic benefit that HW has over plugins. To each his own. That's weird. To me working like that would break continuity, be distracting, and mess with involvement with the project at hand.
I really don't understand why anybody would willingly work on more than one project at a time. It seems to me to be a rather schizoid way to work.
Of course I also don't really understand the concept of having different engineers for tracking and mixing, either.
|
|
|
Post by Tbone81 on Jun 19, 2019 18:03:36 GMT -6
I've seen videos where Scheps said that the ability to work on multiple mixes at once, (to work on one for 20min, close, open another for an hour, close, work on the next etc) is more inspiring to him than any sonic benefit that HW has over plugins. To each his own. That's weird. To me working like that would break continuity, be distracting, and mess with involvement with the project at hand.
I really don't understand why anybody would willingly work on more than one project at a time. It seems to me to be a rather schizoid way to work.
Of course I also don't really understand the concept of having different engineers for tracking and mixing, either.
In the video, if I remember correctly, he was referring to working on different mixes of the same project/album.
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jun 19, 2019 22:27:14 GMT -6
Is this an educated, scientific fact or just something you made up and believe? Honest question. I just googled "phantom components" and got nothing. It's definitely real. "phantom components" is just a phrase to make it easier to understand for laymen, I'd be surprised if you found it in a google search.
I've seen DIY projects where layout problems actually made the end result un useable but I don't really feel like taking 15 minutes to type out an example story at the moment, especially since I'm pretty sure I've done it before at least a time or two on this forum. (And more times than I can count on GearSwamp.)
Capacitance, inductance, and resistance between circuit board traces or components, an unidentified 'phantom' circuit value derived from physical proximity. The first commercially functional op amp (Philbrick I think) actually worked properly because of a phantom component, thus undocumented, and no one could figure out how to make a knockoff because they were changing the layout and losing the phantom part.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jun 20, 2019 0:40:05 GMT -6
Kind of the electronic "Ghost in the machine"-very cool. Chris
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jun 20, 2019 3:40:58 GMT -6
Also, as I believe you mentioned earlier, the way different hardware inter-reacts with each other is cool, unique, vibey - and totally (IME) unachievable with the software substitutes. So you're implying in that going OTB to just one piece of hardware is only marginally better than using a high quailty plugin of the same piece of hardware? ..as opposed to going OTB to two pieces of hardware in series. That's where the magic analog goodness happens? Take for instance an SSL style compressor like the Audio-Scape Buss compressor. Are you saying I'm not really taking full advantage of using it in a hybrid setup unless I strap some pre-amps or EQs in series with it?
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Jun 20, 2019 6:33:48 GMT -6
I try to use as much hardware as is predictable on the way in.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 20, 2019 9:18:15 GMT -6
Also, as I believe you mentioned earlier, the way different hardware inter-reacts with each other is cool, unique, vibey - and totally (IME) unachievable with the software substitutes. So you're implying in that going OTB to just one piece of hardware is only marginally better than using a high quailty plugin of the same piece of hardware? ..as opposed to going OTB to two pieces of hardware in series. That's where the magic analog goodness happens? Take for instance an SSL style compressor like the Audio-Scape Buss compressor. Are you saying I'm not really taking full advantage of using it in a hybrid setup unless I strap some pre-amps or EQs in series with it? I had a nice long answer for you - and lost it into the ether.... So - to recap it - the more hardware I use, the more I like it. I'll often have 2-3-4 pieces on one track. The less plugins I use, the more 3D my mixes are - at least that's how it feels. I'm not a scientist, I'm a composer / producer / engineer. I go with where the flow leads me, and it has currently led me to a hybrid workflow with lots of outboard gear. Btw - I have TONS of plugins. Most (other than verbs and a few delays) rarely get used. I've been thru the whole OTB, analog tape machines, analog consoles (9), Digital tape machines, dozens of DAW configs, itb mixing, otb mixing, big fancy rooms, small unequipped rooms, and every which way you can do it - I've done it. I'm happiest with my current way of mixing. Take from that what you will. I don't promote it as the gospel, just the best way of working for me. I can hear and feel the difference - and it makes me happy.
|
|
|
Post by M57 on Jun 20, 2019 9:20:15 GMT -6
I had a nice long answer for you - and lost it into the ether.... But I wanted the long answer btw: I HATE it when that happens.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 20, 2019 9:22:52 GMT -6
But I wanted the long answer btw: I HATE it when that happens. That was fairly long....
|
|
|
Post by mrholmes on Jun 20, 2019 9:29:33 GMT -6
I'm not a scientist, I'm a composer / producer / engineer. I go with where the flow leads me, and it has currently led me to a hybrid workflow with lots of outboard gear.
Thats my biggest problem I often do not trust my instinct.
You should write a book about the Zen of composing music in the digital age.
All the good advises had nothing to do with gear.
The best one was your post about workflow which I cant find anymore.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 20, 2019 9:44:26 GMT -6
I'm not a scientist, I'm a composer / producer / engineer. I go with where the flow leads me, and it has currently led me to a hybrid workflow with lots of outboard gear.
Thats my biggest problem I often do not trust my instinct.
You should write a book about the Zen of composing music in the digital age.
All the good advises had nothing to do with gear.
The best one was your post about workflow which I cant find anymore. Completely off topic, but you MUST get to a place where you develop, articulate and TRUST your instincts. That is the place where true freedom in writing / producing begins. At least for me. Second guessing, doubting, A/B testing and the like are a death to creative freedom. I do my absolute best to avoid those at all costs. I don't worry about whether the music is good or not. Only whether it's finished. I let the public choose as to whether or not it's good. And believe me, after a couple thousand + pieces out there, they make some VERY bizarre choices.... Sorry you lost that other thread. I'm sure I could recall if I knew which one you were talking about. LOL
|
|
|
Post by johneppstein on Jun 20, 2019 11:25:11 GMT -6
Also, as I believe you mentioned earlier, the way different hardware inter-reacts with each other is cool, unique, vibey - and totally (IME) unachievable with the software substitutes. So you're implying in that going OTB to just one piece of hardware is only marginally better than using a high quailty plugin of the same piece of hardware? ..as opposed to going OTB to two pieces of hardware in series. That's where the magic analog goodness happens? Take for instance an SSL style compressor like the Audio-Scape Buss compressor. Are you saying I'm not really taking full advantage of using it in a hybrid setup unless I strap some pre-amps or EQs in series with it? No, not really.
The simplest chain that achieves the goal is the best in nearly all cases. Often one piece of hardware will do a job that takes a whole chain of plugins.
|
|
|
Post by seawell on Jun 20, 2019 11:55:49 GMT -6
If someone is looking to get into outboard gear, I'd say one place to start to get a very noticeable difference is to take something like a Sta Level, 176 or RS124 and insert it on your lead vocal in place of your usual plug in compressor. That was the first eye opening moment for me.
|
|
|
Post by maldenfilms on Jun 20, 2019 12:30:19 GMT -6
If someone is looking to get into outboard gear, I'd say one place to start to get a very noticeable difference is to take something like a Sta Level, 176 or RS124 and insert it on your lead vocal in place of your usual plug in compressor. That was the first eye opening moment for me. And I can piggyback off of that by recommending the Silver Bullet. For someone just starting to get into hybrid mixing, it not only offers a LOT of value, but it also is a great way to get your feet wet with understanding the API and Neve "sounds" since you can so easily cascade and gain stage through them. I seriously cannot imagine someone buying one and having buyer's remorse, no matter what stage you're at in your career. And no, Bill and Brad don't pay me to fanboy haha.
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Jun 20, 2019 13:57:46 GMT -6
If someone is looking to get into outboard gear, I'd say one place to start to get a very noticeable difference is to take something like a Sta Level, 176 or RS124 and insert it on your lead vocal in place of your usual plug in compressor. That was the first eye opening moment for me. And I can piggyback off of that by recommending the Silver Bullet. For someone just starting to get into hybrid mixing, it not only offers a LOT of value, but it also is a great way to get your feet wet with understanding the API and Neve "sounds" since you can so easily cascade and gain stage through them. I seriously cannot imagine someone buying one and having buyer's remorse, no matter what stage you're at in your career. And no, Bill and Brad don't pay me to fanboy haha. Hahaa!! I'd agree! Silver Bullet. (or 5) Woohooooo!! I'd recommend it even if it wasn't mine..... But seriously, there have been a small handful out of hundreds that either "didn't get it" or already had it covered with other gear. They are few and far between though. As I mentioned in the other compressor thread, I'm a HUGE proponent for "true stereo" (not dual mono) controls and easily recallable layout. But, all that said, the staLevel that @seawall mentioned above (I use the A-S V-Comp) is a cool piece for bass / vocals too. But back to the point of the thread - it sounds pretty badass, always sounds like it's clipping (in a GREAT way) and is as simple as -- and it will REALLY show you the difference between a plug in and the real deal. Takes about 3 seconds to figure that one out.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Jun 20, 2019 14:26:44 GMT -6
All this (and more) is why a band is better off, going to a REAL recording studio. I wanted to believe otherwise, years ago, but the more I learn... Chris
|
|