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Post by illacov on May 16, 2017 9:48:41 GMT -6
Just one question for the engineers in this thread... Is the 6028/408a tube pair the last word in a viable VF14m replacement or are there other things to try? Fox Audio has a mic that's based on the ECC88/6922 tube. I've heard some clips with it and I was very impressed with it. Very old school, smooth top end, very solid and big proximity effect. I don't know who did this sort of thing with the 6922 before, if at all, but that's one tube that I really liked and its still in production. I know at one point he was doing a dual 6922 version as well. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 15, 2017 12:56:01 GMT -6
I'm sorry you thought that. It was not my intention. I'm an engineer, so I'm not real good with the whole communication thing. :\ What I was trying to say is that it seems like the design in general teeters on the edge of stability and with different builds some choices in parts can inadvertently push the system into complete instability. Since tubes are a very loose tolerance device, you're going to have a huge spread of operating conditions, and therefor a huge chance for some tubes to work perfectly well, while others don't work at all. This bell curve can move around depending on the builder's choices. It seems that in your case I think the system is on one end of the curve, so that selection of tubes is necessary to find ones with the right operating attributes to fit the stability of the system. Other folks have had very little trouble with random tubes, which shows that the system has a very large spread of stability. I wasn't trying to point fingers at you personally, just using your experience as a data point in the larger discussion. I still think that needing to select tubes for stability is a symptom of an overall design issue, but the great variation in different builds makes it hard to pinpoint a specific difference that makes things work (or not work). I think that with some experimentation and troubleshooting we could likely bring the success rate with random tubes to much higher level. Currently I think that maybe the bias point of the plate might be iffy depending on B+ and heater currents. The U47 doesn't use a cathode bypass cap, so the AC signal will vary on the cathode and could cause instability here. I'll have to disassemble my mic to see, but I think I ended up using something like 25R in place of the 29R, and then adjusted the B+ until I got a good operating point. In at least *one* Neumann schematic, they show a 68R and 29R in parallel, which would equal ~21R. This in itself could add stability to the design if some tubes had higher GBW sending them off into oscillation. I appreciate this svart. It very well could be instability with the cathode resistor value. It seems to be temperature related. I'm using a 29R. I need to put my mic back together and do some testing. I planned to use a different tube, but have not gotten very far with it. I also don't remember what version of PCB I have, other than it came from Max? I thought about gutting it and do point to point, although all the high impedance parts are basically floating in air off the board. I would also like to check for oscillation when the thing starts acting up. One of the first issues I found was the filament dropping resistor that came with the kit was breaking down thermally and making the thing spit and sputter. I changed that out among most of the other parts and it was better. Still had to sort through lots of tubes to make it useable. This is exactly what needs to happen for us to see progress. I figured there may have been some slight changes or adjustments in Svart's build. Of course you may say "Well the difference between 25 and 29 ohms isn't that big." It's 20% difference. Design is crazy like that. I dealt with the same thing designing my device especially with resistor values and how sensitive certain parameters were to slight changes in resistance. I'm not saying this is the Aha moment but this is the start to getting there. Good progress! Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 20:12:35 GMT -6
I'm moreso curious to see if the great mystery has been solved somehow.
I remember when the ART Pro VLA was supposedly a dead end for mods and upgrades besides opamps and tubes for years and then I switched the Vactrol out. The entire unit was transformed. It escapes me why a component swap like that wasn't first on everyone's list but I sketched out the remainder of the mod with JJ and it literally turned what was once just a so so device into a gorgeous sounding tool for very little money.
If Svart is onto something, my tone is not meant to be confrontational it's more the pure curiosity and intrigue behind what he may have discovered. You know it's things like this that make these community-ish builds special. For all we know it could be a better grid resistor value or the way the PSU is calibrated. Better filtering caps in the PSU like films...yes films instead of electrolytics. This was from a guy I really respected. He built some really impressive mics so I'd defer to him anyway. Anyhoo. Popcorn popping!!
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 20:01:36 GMT -6
I know just the thing but I have morals. Thanks -L. Then you're in good company because neither do I Would you share your secrets if I told you I was a Zulu customer? Lol (because I am) It's ridiculous on low kicks and basses especially 808 and sub basses. Matthew Weiss enjoys it thoroughly for this. It's extremely good if you EQ and boost into it. The tape compression and the low end are just superb for this. Print and print and print some more. Lofi it up for parallel. Hifi it up for direct. Use Enhance at 0 for more squeeze on MX mode and use HX for purity and Hi deck. Smack it with EQ and gain. Like butta. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 12:03:21 GMT -6
We should have some kind of physical prototype of the tracking module in the next 45 days. In the meantime, Zulu has traversed the globe with orders originating from remote locations like Mauritius!
I will obviously keep you posted however we are still a touch early before we can begin making pictures and feature descriptions available. We are definitely squeezing a crap ton of features into both the tracking and mastering module at the moment. Some major circuit bending activity will be taking place in these versions for certain!
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 11:59:00 GMT -6
So I'm working on a project right now that has a lot of sub bass kicks and low synthy bass parts. I'm having some trouble getting the low end to sit where I want and to stand out on small speakers etc. I was thinking of trying maxxbass but waves won't sell me a legacy license. All my current waves plugins are v6 and I refuse to pay to upgrade all of them for one simple plugin. Can you guys recommend any maxxbass alternatives or other bass enhancer plugins? My current workflow is to duplicate the sub kicks, band pass filter and apply saturation and/or distortion to the new track and layer back in in parallel. It's working ok but I'd still like to explore what plugins are out there for this type of stuff. I'm generally more of a rock guy so working with more urban genres is a little challenging for me. Thanks. I know just the thing but I have morals. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 11:57:07 GMT -6
I've done the hardware inserts with no mixer thing for a while and I mix having the comfort of a real 10-15db gain bump, especially when I'm patching in analog. The added analog EQ allows you to boost aggressively with less non musical performance and you have the fader to attenuate your hot levels if you need to.
I have to get a multichannel portable interface, right now I'm limited to 2 extra channels. Once I have an 8 channel unit of some kind I'll be better able to try out my theory.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 14, 2017 11:45:20 GMT -6
Ok so I will chime in here since this is the world I'm from (mics).
It sounds like a qualified engineer feels they have data that proves the work they did with a public design has solved a rampant problem experienced by other engineers when building the same design which is a paint by numbers application.
So let's be straight forward. Svart are you willing to disclose if you've done something different? I refuse to believe such a large portion of techs left their circuit boards filthy and a simple deflux will solve the issue. Thats still leaving it up to chance. If youre able to repeatedly try different tubes without problems then it sounds like a welcome parameter change.
Do you need compensation to disclose your findings? Are you engaged with Stam and have implemented these design changes already? This is an easily obtainable pcb so either something is wrong with it sans mods or adjustments to operating voltages or you know something we don't. Why send a tube to see if it's bad if that still doesn't point out what you did different? As a U47 admirer and a good friend of Oliver's, politely I ask what do you need in return from us or Stam to spill the beans?
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 22:46:49 GMT -6
FYI - I'm not printing my tracks with hardware back into PT. That's a groove buster. If I was doing that, I could get away with 16 i/o and 1/4 the hardware I have. I'm using all my hardware on inserts "live" during a mix where I can grab knobs, turn pots, you know, MIX. That said, I turn out a lot of music every year for TV and the like, so I NEED to work fast. I'm not making an album for myself. So I'm OK with having to do a "recall" if I screw up a mix and have to do it over. I can compromise on that because it's rare I have to do a remix. But I won't compromise by mixing on a mixer or plugins. Not at my current situation. Maybe someday though. But probably not. I don't get all the gaga over a little A&H or Mackie mixer. That would be an incredible downgrade - sonically, workflow, and every other way. I have 10 inserts on every PT channel. I don't know any mixer that has more than 2. And that's a stretch. I have panning on every channel. AND I can automate it. I have UNLIMITED Aux sends. Well, at least 256 - might as well be unlimited. I've never tried to go more. Pretty sure you can do at least 512 though. I have trims that are automatabIe, so I can hit any piece of gear as hard - or not - as I want. Automatable. I can create virtually unlimited complex bussing and stems setups internally. And recall or load them into different sessions in a blink. AND, I have 10 inserts on the master buss as well. I can print alternate mixes simultaneously. One pass. SO, with 10 inserts on each channel where I can patch in killer outboard gear along with all the functionality that mixers would have give their Left nut for - for decades, why would I want a little 14 channel mixer? I've got a 120 input OrionX console in storage that should be up FS. I just somehow can't emotionally part with it yet. Hardware inserts / Hybrid / HDX Delay Compensation. Bringing the dream..... How hot can you come out of your DAC before you hit audible distortion? Have you compared equivalent gain with your D&R off your DAC into a chosen piece vs digital gain via your trim plugin? I've done tests like this and heard audible differences between hitting the DAC hotter to get gain vs using a clean analog stage to get the same or hotter gain. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 21:31:48 GMT -6
illacovMost people need to add conversion when considering summing especially for 16-32 input summing boxes...Standard configuration for most interfaces/ converters are in lumps of 8 I/O whether ADC or DAC. Many I know have 16 Ins and 16 outs and work with HW inserts in PT and are used to working that way. They can chain up to 10 HW inserts in a row per audio/ aux/ master fader track.. The outputs and inputs have to correspond for this to work. Incorporating a summing mixer would cost $ but also require a change in workflow. Most summing mixers don't have mulitple inserts per channel, ( not sure why ) so if I want to saturate one stem with outboard after compressing and summing it would take complex patching/ re routing and be a total pain, that is unless your summing mixer has a routing matrix but now we are talking consoles pretty much..In the hybrid workflow I could insert my saturation device after I printed or summed to a subgroup if need be instead of having to output to a summing mixer I also realize most summing mixers are 32 channels so that's even more outputs needed available just to dedicate to summing if working how I do with Pro Tools and HW inserts. Incorporating summing is a big expense for 8/10 members here.. Yes a patch bay can facilitate the use of the same I/O for tracking and mixing however my Apollo only has 8 analog I/O, so I put the motu figure up there as a wonderful converter people highly recommend and it's a great price IMO.. What if you prefer Apollo or Lynx or Prism conversion so you go with any of those 16 I/O converters instead of the motu... Now we are talking $3k-10k added to the above equation That's why drbill keeps racking up on his I/O so he can seemlessly print his beloved HW right back into the same audio track with a new labeled playlist. I love HW inserts and think they are amazing and for most who work like that the gear is hard patched or patchable... Take Care 😎 I concur that one is "convenient." However I would like to point out that the Allen and Heath 14 channel was the LEAST expensive component of the summing scenario I posted and it had inserts on every channel plus panning, EQ, aux sends and an insert on the master buss. Features wise alone that's beating lots of summing mixers, this is before you look at the cost. Whether or not it's your optimum choice is just as unknown as if a summing mixer without those features would be. I have racked up on tons of analog but your not gaining much in time saved if you're printing stems on multiple HW inserts versus printing a mix with live inserts running. 4 minutes mixdown is the same for both scenarios. Or direct outs to a board with that same hardware inserted. Same amount of time. Patchbays are massive time savers in my world. The b**ch is recall. But that's true regardless of how you proceed. As well, don't forget if you ditch the board you sacrifice the analog trims, mic preamps, analog eq and the added degree of playing with levels (like attenuating via the fader) before worrying about clipping your return inputs on digital returns. This is also invaluable during prints since you have added gain staging and tone shaping available. There's plenty of compressors that don't have input controls, especially those with fixed thresholds. It's always an added convenience to have some extra analog gain available to hit the 1176 or LA2A hotter as a hardware insert. I've purchased an analog board (a Mackie Mix8 board from GC) to experiment with and do some demos for analog gain staging regarding this very subject. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 19:56:23 GMT -6
So, I made up some patch leads (XLR to TRS) to be able to put the Zulu on the master bus of the RND 5060 and it definitely benefits from getting more signal into it. And it is doing what I hoped by taking things down a notch before my converters as I go back into the box. The 5060 has max output at +27 dBu which has been an issue with my Apollo converter line input which is rated at +4 dBu max and I have had to have the master fader at -10db or so. With the Zulu inline I can now push it more and get more vibe from the 5060 output transformers along with the Zulu. Happy days :-) Now that's handsome! I have to try a cheap analog mixer into Zulu off my portable ADDA. I want to see what's the ceiling for cheap analog gain actually is. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 16:17:09 GMT -6
14 chroma + 15 Zulu + A & H zed14 + motu 16A + SB + SSL Clone $8400 + $6000 + $399 + $1500 + $2500 + 650 = $19449 What console / gear could you really buy with that same money? ^ I don't see this as realistic, and I don't know how quality of a signal path a $399 mixer has with Eq on every channel.. This also assumes you already have monitor controller etc, I just added in conversion plus the other prices of what was listed... Is there a better converter for $1500 that does 16 analog i and 16 analog out like the motu 16a for summing? Conversion and cabling alone can cost more than the summing box! Don't you need converters regardless? I mean that's more of a build my studio from scratch budget more than a guy who is auditioning summing or mixing on a console budget. Converters were a given in my suggestion. Your numbers are correct it is an "investment." This was for tracking and mixing. I have customers who own a single chain that costs more than 50% of that $20,000 figure. Far more than I anticipated. So to have an entire system that covers your tracking and mixing needs plus offers extreme flexibility is actually pretty cheap in the grand scheme. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 12:06:34 GMT -6
14 channel Active design, clean stages with EQ on every channel. $399 A&H Zed 14.
Chroma and Zulu on every insert, on master buss insert run Silver Bullet with a SSL Compressor and Zulu on the SB insert.
Sick for tracking and mixing.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 13, 2017 11:06:10 GMT -6
To be honest it's really a path thing with distortion. We had to live with it at the onset of recorded music in some form or another, yet we continuously worked hard to eliminate it along with other undesirable artifacts as time progressed. We eventually killed tape with digital recording platforms and software based environments and then almost immediately began the path back to distortion, first with the return of old school compressors and eqs, then the digital emulations and early analog attempts followed, then the more sophisticated analog era commenced, along with the increased prowess of digital attempts at modelling analog distortion and here we are in 2017. I seriously doubt there is such a thing as an end to this aesthetic we're in. If anything it will exceed far beyond our wildest imagination. This is not the peak. There is extremely exciting emergent technology coming forth that will impact the way we record music for years to come and as always we should be cognizant of even our recent milestones. Think of how old the Distressor is now and imagine what they said about a compressor that intentionally distorts at it's inception. Yet here it is 20+ years later, people still buy brand new units and Empirical Labs is still kicking out great gear. Now a Distressor is a tool. It's no longer just a distortion compressor. It's an old standby. For some engineers this was their first compressor! I'd say distortion or whatever we want to call it: color, saturation, transient shaping, tube amplification, harmonic enhancement is here to stay. The world survived nearly 100 years of distortion, so why stop now? Remember no matter how brilliant a designer is, they don't have control over how the world uses their technology. Once it's out of their hands and the consumers have it, a guy could have a device you make dimed at 11 and it might sound God awful to you but sound like the shiz to him. That's art. Thanks -L. Hi Langston, And when a bunch of artists all copy each other and do the same thing for a period of time because it's fashionable...well, I think we all know what that's called. Brad Rock n Roll? Jazz? Hip hop? Just to name a few. They said all 3 of these "fads," would never last. Yet the critics and naysayers are dead and the art form continues. I mean sheesh, the NOLA Jazz fest is legendary and hosts far more than jazz but imagine if there were no such thing as the NOLA or OMG the Montreux Jazz fest? Designs have been called fads too. Bill Putnam's designs went into and out of and back into style in the same century. I remember the stories of LA2As and 1176s on curbs!!! I've seen the same thing happen with consoles and tape machines. Over and over again. A guy gave away a perfect condition Yamaha PM3000 yesterday in my home town. Unicorn tears. Unicorn tears. Fads are a one shot deal and then they are gone for good like Hammer Pants, Furbees and Biker shorts. The rebirth of the cool distortion? That's fashion - of the frequencies. Of course we're not talking goofy ringing distortion, though you will find that from time to time. I'm talking about elegantly implemented facets of it. You mentioned in a previous post about familiarizing yourself with the sound of tape (referencing the Anamod). That's a very valid point. But there are decks that indeed stick out like sore thumbs that producers dig on, engineers too and it's not our jobs or place, to judge them for liking a fuzzbox with reels. LOL If that's what they want then that's what they'll get from us or somebody else. I had a customer who tracked a record to tape and mix it thru Zulu. The differences were obvious, there was more noise than if it was tracked to digital. The audio was very soft, pretty dark and very compressed. Now the decks in use were Teac and Otari machines. I couldn't speak to how well they were calibrated, but the Teac deck they had is just a gloriously funky machine. It is what it is. The Otari was definitely better fidelity but it still has noise if you're not using some kind of NR. Case being, it wasn't more in line with "tape has to be listened for," but rather it was in your face and it sounded cool as shit. That's the bar we have to reach to meet those parameters, intentionally impacted audio. Stuff that's less archival and more arcane. Perhaps it's my personal aesthetic at play but when you see it coming back at you from unprompted empirical data then you have to acknowledge it. By the same contrast there's some really elegant things distortion does to my ears that's very classy. There's tons of room for expansion in that area. Mainly because what we utilize to obtain even the gentle fluffy stuff (like 1073) isn't purpose built with that in mind but rather it's a side effect of using it. If anything this is just the tip of the iceberg with distortion, especially in design. You make some great pieces, I'm definitely digging the Chroma platform. I'm sure that as more people have your tech, your horizons will expand and this may in turn positively impact your approaches to design as working in the music industry did for me. And I'm beyond certain that people will be using your products in many years to come and God willing the same will be true for me. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 12, 2017 22:12:49 GMT -6
A 57 on snare into a Scully 280 vs a Neve 1073 or a Dukane 2A75 will all have different artifacts that you can highlight as the colors of these pieces of gear. As with all mic preamp there's a limit to how great they are at boosting before you're just amplifying noise. With any color you seek there's a sweet spot to gear, sometimes it doesn't require massive gain and sometimes it does. This is like comparing Kung Fu techniques, Crane vs Tiger. Everybody has differing approaches and opinions. My definition of color will be inadequate or irrelevant to you or somebody else. But in context with controlled parameters? Using a mic preamp to make up 45 db or so of gain with a passive summing mixer is not a way you'd normally incur any real "color." Not the obvious stuff. The sales pitch (part of it) for a passive summing mixer is that your mic preamp(s) is the source of color and you switch to get those colors. The output of a summing mixer isn't what I'd call the most robust level you'd send into a mic preamp if you're seeking some major difference. Color may include saturation or distortion as well. An under driven mic preamp typically won't accomplish that. This is what I was referring to. In general this ain't the way to go. How is distortion a sonic fad? Les Paul and Chuck Berry are rolling in their graves. LOL Thanks -L. Hi, I totally agree that every piece of gear has a sweet spot. Some wide, some narrow. And I think it goes without saying that we all have our own unique preferences for sound and what we think is musically engaging. I think the ability of a mic pre to amplify signal without noise is mostly a function of how clean your power supply is and PSRR of the circuit in question. I'm not sure if that's what you were referring to though. I think I understand what you mean. I think using a mic preamp to provide 45 dB of gain on the back end of a summing box does provide what I would consider real color, provided it's not a "wire-with-gain" design. I agree that driving more signal into any device such that you push it into an obvious non-linear zone will produce more distortion. We may have have different tastes as far as appealing levels of distortion go, and perhaps different perceptions of what color is. Sometimes hearing a "major difference" is nice to understand the limits of you gear or to get a feel for a device's flavor, but may not be desirable in the context of balancing subtleties within a mix. I remember the first time I auditioned an Anamod ATS-1. I turned the knobs and thought to myself "is this thing doing anything?" So I cranked the knobs all the way up and heard it audibly distort. My untrained ears/brain thought I was now hearing the "color" of the ATS-1. "Is this what tape sounds like?" I wondered. I then spent the next few years getting acquainted with real tape decks and using them to make recordings in my studio exclusively. The next time I heard the Anamod its color was vividly apparent to me, despite there being no audible distortion. I should have clarified my comment about distortion being a sonic fad, because it's easy to misunderstand what I wrote. I was referring specifically to the trend of purposely using distortion devices in mixing, not because the gear can't do any better spec wise, but because the current trend in a lot of pop/rock genres is to creatively distort stuff....vocals, drums, bass...often in parallel. Distortion will always be cool on guitar amps. A quick search on YouTube to support my claim: www.youtube.com/results?search_query=distortion+on+vocalsLet's revisit this search in 2025 and see if the trend has moved on to something else. By the way...speaking of distortion. I pulled the API 2520 out of the 512 preamp I have here and popped in a Rogue Two prototype. OH. MY. LORD. That preamp came alive! That API 2520 is a bit of a dirt machine especially when the 512 is followed by something with a 600 ohm input impedance. The Rogue Two (extremely low distortion) was a much preferable "color" to these ears. Brad In my experience design trumps intent. If you have a simple 1:2 transformer that's hanging right off the input of a mic preamp that's being exposed to an extremely low amount of voltage, then this is less about color and more about getting that signal to nominal level. Whatever supporting circuitry that could offer significant amount of saturation, envelope shaping under much hotter levels, will simply do it's job instead. By contrast the closer that signal approaches 0 VU (hence my 57 on top snare example) going into that transformer the better the chance you have at incurring potentially desirable sonic anomalies or musical distortion through that device. To be honest it's really a path thing with distortion. We had to live with it at the onset of recorded music in some form or another, yet we continuously worked hard to eliminate it along with other undesirable artifacts as time progressed. We eventually killed tape with digital recording platforms and software based environments and then almost immediately began the path back to distortion, first with the return of old school compressors and eqs, then the digital emulations and early analog attempts followed, then the more sophisticated analog era commenced, along with the increased prowess of digital attempts at modelling analog distortion and here we are in 2017. I seriously doubt there is such a thing as an end to this aesthetic we're in. If anything it will exceed far beyond our wildest imagination. This is not the peak. There is extremely exciting emergent technology coming forth that will impact the way we record music for years to come and as always we should be cognizant of even our recent milestones. Think of how old the Distressor is now and imagine what they said about a compressor that intentionally distorts at it's inception. Yet here it is 20+ years later, people still buy brand new units and Empirical Labs is still kicking out great gear. Now a Distressor is a tool. It's no longer just a distortion compressor. It's an old standby. For some engineers this was their first compressor! I'd say distortion or whatever we want to call it: color, saturation, transient shaping, tube amplification, harmonic enhancement is here to stay. The world survived nearly 100 years of distortion, so why stop now? Remember no matter how brilliant a designer is, they don't have control over how the world uses their technology. Once it's out of their hands and the consumers have it, a guy could have a device you make dimed at 11 and it might sound God awful to you but sound like the shiz to him. That's art. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 12, 2017 12:10:37 GMT -6
Just to add really quickly. Imagine distance miking (a far room mic, high up) even something like a drum kit with a ribbon mic. If you need to get to almost the end of the scale of the preamp's gain potential before you get a usable level then how would you accomplish character at that stage? The answer is your character is going the noise or the lack thereof. Take that same mic and place it in front of the kit maybe a foot away. The same gain settings would be overloading the mic preamp. That's the difference to how I perceive a summing mixer feeding a mic preamp versus the output of a single DAC running full scale feeding a mic preamp. Ones going to be doing loads of color or distortion or both and one will just be giving you gain with next to no hope for color unless there's some extra circuitry there designed to create distortion or character. Thanks -L. Define color. What that means to people can take on so many forms. I feel that lots of gear imparts "color" regardless of the level I send to it. Or sounds different even at conservative levels. It's not always necessary to be jamming level into our gear to have it do musically tasteful things. Distortion is a sonic fad just like gated reverbs and Yamaha DX7's. Brad A 57 on snare into a Scully 280 vs a Neve 1073 or a Dukane 2A75 will all have different artifacts that you can highlight as the colors of these pieces of gear. As with all mic preamp there's a limit to how great they are at boosting before you're just amplifying noise. With any color you seek there's a sweet spot to gear, sometimes it doesn't require massive gain and sometimes it does. This is like comparing Kung Fu techniques, Crane vs Tiger. Everybody has differing approaches and opinions. My definition of color will be inadequate or irrelevant to you or somebody else. But in context with controlled parameters? Using a mic preamp to make up 45 db or so of gain with a passive summing mixer is not a way you'd normally incur any real "color." Not the obvious stuff. The sales pitch (part of it) for a passive summing mixer is that your mic preamp(s) is the source of color and you switch to get those colors. The output of a summing mixer isn't what I'd call the most robust level you'd send into a mic preamp if you're seeking some major difference. Color may include saturation or distortion as well. An under driven mic preamp typically won't accomplish that. This is what I was referring to. In general this ain't the way to go. How is distortion a sonic fad? Les Paul and Chuck Berry are rolling in their graves. LOL Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 11, 2017 20:09:41 GMT -6
No - just through the dbox. I always have the VP28s in the path...but wanted to just hear if the summing was doing anything. I'll run the summed pass through the 28s and post. Then I'll post the snippet of the finished product. Honestly, I'm pretty damn happy with the sounds I'm getting...but there's always the little voice saying, "it could be even better..." Add some mic preamps inline from the DAC to the dbox! Crank dem joints, turn some damn knobs! Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 11, 2017 19:44:59 GMT -6
Quite some time ago, about 5 years to be exact, I had the extreme pleasure of chewing Eric's ear off about capsule design. During the course of these conversations, Eric and I exchanged over chat, telephone calls and email, our ideas about capsule design. Eric is the genius in this conversation so I'm not trying to steal flames. Rather what I'm pointing out is that the HK47 which I used to call the H2O capsule (I used to say the demos Eric sent me sounded like water LOL) is revolutionary in its approach. It breaks the conform of limiting yourself to the gospel of historic design and instead implements clever engineering practices to make a great sounding capsule that's got some K47 in its bones along with some other tidbits of other capsules that make it a fantastic hybrid design. Its awesome 5 years later to see ideas that we threw back and forth at each other, become real and become a part of new canon in microphone design.
Regarding the engineering behind the HK47, I'm quoting this right off Eric's site:
"This is my take on the famous k47 capsule popularized by the Neumann U47. It came after the m7 and was introduced to be a more consistent capsule then the edge glued m7 variant. My version is a hybrid of the 47 and 67 style capsules. I achieved this by using the same hole pattern as the original 47 but doing this on the separate back-plates, like a 67. This allows me to further match and tune the capsule to much tighter tolerances and keeps the same wonderful mid-range and top of the original 47."
I'm honored that I even got to brainstorm, run off at the mouth with Eric when this was still in early development. I've heard it in a few microphones and its always sounded fab to me! I highly recommend his capsules and despite the doubts you may have, his work is superb!
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 11, 2017 19:24:18 GMT -6
Just to add really quickly. Imagine distance miking (a far room mic, high up) even something like a drum kit with a ribbon mic. If you need to get to almost the end of the scale of the preamp's gain potential before you get a usable level then how would you accomplish character at that stage? The answer is your character is going the noise or the lack thereof. Take that same mic and place it in front of the kit maybe a foot away. The same gain settings would be overloading the mic preamp.
That's the difference to how I perceive a summing mixer feeding a mic preamp versus the output of a single DAC running full scale feeding a mic preamp. Ones going to be doing loads of color or distortion or both and one will just be giving you gain with next to no hope for color unless there's some extra circuitry there designed to create distortion or character.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 11, 2017 19:13:25 GMT -6
The fun that can be had using an analog gain stage to control volume for the sake of incurring character can't be tossed aside so easily.
Where I think summing mixers typically fall apart on the passive tip has more to do with how you utilize them than their purpose. Since the only gain you get with a passive summing mixer is the digital fader inside your DAW which is pre DAC (which then feeds each input of the passive summer), that doesn't necessarily offer you much in the way of musical gain. Instead you're bound by whatever your DAC can do before it sounds like poo. This is in turn is the attenuated by the nature of the passive summing network inside the mixer. Then whatever you're left with is what goes to the mic preamp input. Truth is you won't be hitting the input of the preamp all that hot to begin with. You're back in subtle territory and its a matter of splitting hairs. Boo to that. Brad did a test before where he shot out a passive summing mixer with a mic preamp vs the preamp itself hanging off the DAC (I forget if he attenuated it before the mic preamp to offer a similar level of signal or not) but.....I've always held the idea that as signal approaches closer to what we call line level (or exceed it) then you really begin to see the magic factor happen in gear.
Brad's absolutely correct, right off the DAC is where you get the mojo or where you attach the device that lets you drive the next device into mojo territory.
DAC to Zulu to ADC is one thing but DAC to mic preamp to Zulu to ADC is a totally different planet. Even on a real tape machine, I'd never just park signal from my DAC into my Tascam 38 or my Fostex A20. It was always a mic preamp, normally I used a PM700 channel strip or similar (usually line level signal to the transformer coupled mic preamp input, consequences be damned). It gave me a different overall touch factor to how I gain staged and it sounded better to my ears, plus it had 3 band analog EQ (win win win).
I think where we got lost on the way was somehow consumer culture bought into the concept of using a summing mixer as a replacement/solution rather than a piece of the solution. Its a great platform for running your DACs into some analog stages that can go into full on overload if you want without worrying about clipping the inputs of your converters (like you do when you make a round trip hardware insert).
Its like I was mentioning the other day on Facebook. Tape wasn't/isn't solely great unto itself as a way to accomplish vibe. No...rather its a way to utilize your surrounding equipment differently to make IT (the other equipment) do stuff you normally can't without that frequency comforting security blanket in place to absorb the burrs and rough edges you'll pick up while shaving some transients. A summing mixer or traditional mixer is true in this regard as well. It gives you a platform to work at extreme or hotter than usual operating levels that normally present problems in a digital environment, plus it will sum all your sounds together in a neat little package. Obviously you could do the same thing with in line attenuators and mic preamps too, but that's not quite as fun.
As always turn some damn knobs.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 10, 2017 19:36:54 GMT -6
Ok, it has come to my attention that there may be a small number of first round Zulus (with the OLD style knobs, not the new ones) that had the Bias knob stopping fully clockwise at (+). This is not correct. The knob is supposed to stop at OFF 6 oclock. To match our documentation and any preset sheets shared online, please make this adjustment. My apologies for this issue. To prevent issues with stripping the threads, do not remove the set screw all the way. Loosen it just enough to let the knob turn on the shaft. If you do happen to strip the hole, please use the other hole on the opposite side of the knob and secure the knob that way. Please contact me if you have any problems, I can send replacement knobs out. This does not change the electronics btw just the point of reference to where your knob is pointing.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 10, 2017 6:46:23 GMT -6
Not wanting to de-rail this thread but having had the Zulu for a few hours I would now say that an 8-track rack version (8 channels for tracking or 4 stereo stems for mixing) would be superb. You wouldn't need to change much except get the knobs closer together to get it into a 3-U height? or even 4-U? This could be a huge secret weapon for many studios. That's the modular rack system we are prototyping right now It will be capable of up to 16 channels for tracking or if you want the mixing/mastering module it will hold up to 8 channels of those I'm glad you're down with 4U because that's exactly the size we are working with. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 10, 2017 0:05:40 GMT -6
Hey Langston- I'll be using my Zulu with the RND 5060 as well. I'm curious about your comment as to why inserting Zulu into the Mix Bus would be any different than running it inline out of the Main Output. I'll certainly use both methods when implementing Zulu and will post my results. Scott As an insert the performance will be different than as an inline device say after your 5060. Obviously no AB but way more gain to hit it. Highly recommend you try it. Thanks -L. I have to do a bit of research but unless the insert is post fader on the 5060, then you have a different degree of gain staging with Zulu after the fader. Its not a right or wrong aspect moreso, if you knew you could get more tone by hitting the input hotter and you liked having the tone of the channel hit Zulu rather than Zulu be in "front" of the tone of the channel before gain....you get my drift? For example Alan Evans, has Zulu on the output of his console and hits the input hotter than anything. He mixes the channels on the console into that combination of the master buss gain and the way Zulu reacts versus Zulu being hit first with possibly less gain as an insert (there's no input trim on a master buss? ?Super secret mixer out there that does??) and getting a different tone. Obviously Alan likes having the extra gain smack the input of Zulu since he used his tape machines for mixdowns the same way. Makes sense Try both ways. See which works for your source material. Either way you have both techniques at your disposal. Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 9, 2017 15:33:18 GMT -6
As an insert the performance will be different than as an inline device say after your 5060. Obviously no AB but way more gain to hit it. Highly recommend you try it.
Thanks -L.
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Post by illacov on May 9, 2017 14:56:44 GMT -6
OK, so I made a quick unboxing and demo video which can be found here: My first video for Youtube ever, so please forgive any noob errors or omissions :-) I will be starting to do some regular content for the recording studio channel and I think I need a video camera because I couldn't get the phone screen to just record the camera. The voice is not well recorded either but I shut up as soon as the music starts Anyway if you want to see someone going crazy for 4 minutes on the Zulu controls take a look Wow that RND console and the Zulu are a beastly combo!!! Thanks for the great video. May we share? So what do you think of Zulu so far? Thanks -L.
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