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Post by M57 on Dec 25, 2022 6:39:42 GMT -6
Let's say I'd want to purchase a stereo compressor (or eq) for the mix buss, but also to be able to use one or both of its channels for tracking. Assuming this is the only peice of gear that I anticipate wanting to do this with, should I just deal with the hassle of switching cables all the time, or should I get a patch bay? I wouldn't be doing it that often, maybe a couple times a week at most and likely a lot less, so I don't think that wear and tear would be an issue. Is there such a thing as a tiny patchbay that only supports a couple of units? One solution that comes to mind ..I use 500 series pre-amps. Are there perhaps boxes with switching to let me do this assuming the compressor is also 500 series? Hmm ..might there be such a thing as a 500 series patchbay module, or is that just silly? EDIT: Yeah, I know how to use a search engine.. www.blacklionaudio.com/store/500-series-racks/pbr-8-500-series-rack/..but I'd like to hear what folks think..
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Post by M57 on Dec 23, 2022 5:21:19 GMT -6
Hardware isn't something you commit to half heartedly..
Yes, I realize that things can't be unprinted. But it's not as black and white as saying that a little uncertainty is unacceptable. I can't go back and change the mic, its placement or the pre-amp. Printing a little 2A on the way in is certainly going to help more than hurt, even with 0 gain reduction. It's not that I don't trust my decisions. I know what I want, and that makes it that much harder to let go. On the other hand I also know I have limitations, some of which no doubt I'm unaware of. A new set of ears at the mastering stage makes a lot of sense.
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Post by M57 on Dec 23, 2022 4:24:20 GMT -6
In recent years with all the advances in technology and the release of so many great clones and boutique designs I've built my studio around getting all the "magic sauce" at the tracking stage with boutique mics, pre amps and compressors and then adding all the vibe, depth and 3D soundscape with boutique tube and SS gear on the stereo mix bus. Then when it comes to "mastering" well there's virtually nothing left to do. A couple of dB of light limiting, perhaps a dB of mastering compression and the odd corrective/ track matching touch of EQ here and there. I have the monitoring, ears and gears to take care of that myself Nice. I'm not quite there, but I'm close. From treatment to hardware, and now the Dyn 48's are burning in, etc. But I'm also realizing that, as much as I want to, I shouldn't trust myself or my gear 100%. Having someone else master seems to make a lot of sense. That, and at least in the medium term, I'll save a lot of money. Paying to have a two or three EP's mastered costs a lot less than two or three pieces of boutiquey gear.
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Post by M57 on Dec 22, 2022 8:58:24 GMT -6
..so you have bridge compressors in the chain as well? Depends what I'm doing, you can put either in bypass with the flick of a button so sometimes I'll use the Acme, sometimes I'll use the bridge diode. The Shelford is a channel strip so it's a preamp / EQ / Compressor and saturation unit in a 1U rackmount. The Acme is a seperate 500 series compressor..
It's far from the only tracking chain I have but this is my favourite and everything works well through it.
OK, too much stuff.. Not enough money and not enough space for that matter. I'm looking for a minimal type of set up. NP-500NV --> EQ/Pultec(s) --> upgrade Compressor --> ITB When I listen to all these shootouts of high end gear, I think to myself.. Yeah, OK, I hear the difference, but I can't necessarily tell that one is objectively better than the other, especially where color is concerned. I write music and record primarily for myself, so on the one hand I don't see the point in purchasing gear that I can't appreciate. Of course I realize that when I share my music, there are people out there who are able to make those distinctions. Then there's my alter-ego asking me as chief knob turner, how do I know I'm not screwing things up? My solution is to keep it simple. One thing I like about the Pultec is that it's a subtle EQ. A lot can go a little.
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Post by M57 on Dec 22, 2022 8:24:06 GMT -6
The Shelfords have a version of the 551 inductor EQ's built in (and they are fantastic) alongside 535 bridge diode compressors. The 535's work for some things but not everything, not my first choice for vocals but they can do wonders with bass, electric guitars, synths and some acoustic instruments. ..so you have bridge compressors in the chain as well?
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Post by M57 on Dec 22, 2022 7:18:53 GMT -6
This thread has my head spinning.. I've gone back and forth between enhancing my hybrid setup (which is basically an AudioScape Buss Comp on the mix buss) to pretty much staying ITB and instead focusing on enhancing or upgrading my recording chains, and I'm starting to settle in on the latter. Hopefully I'll be getting things professionally mastered so this seems to be the right way to go about things. This is heading towards a restart my studio thread ..!
If it were me as I've just recently done an entire studio refit and tested a ton of equipment this is exactly what I'd do if you are a track at a time "DIY" recorder.
2X Shelfords (tracking)
2X Acme Opticom's (it does both 1176 and 2A style compression) or something equivalent (Buzz Audio, Chandler) they're all amazing. (Also for tracking).
1X SSL 500 series G-Bus comp for the master
1X Gainlabs (Empress) Pultec style EQ for the master 1X Bettermaker Mastering limiter (not actually for the brick wall portion of it).
The rest would just be plugins, I bought a lot of hardware because I use my DAW as tape deck essentially.. That being said the equipment described above is the core "sound" of my studio and IMO you really do not need a setup better than that. Ever, as in no more upgrades, done, finished forever.. Focus on the boring stuff like mic placement, room treatment, monitors etc..
That won't appeal to the buy new equipment every 5 minutes crowd I'm sure but if you can't create epic sounding tracks with that stuff sorry, it ain't the equipment.
No EQ going in?
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Post by M57 on Dec 22, 2022 6:12:27 GMT -6
This thread has my head spinning.. I've gone back and forth between enhancing my hybrid setup (which is basically an AudioScape Buss Comp on the mix buss) to pretty much staying ITB and instead focusing on enhancing or upgrading my recording chains, and I'm starting to settle in on the latter. Hopefully I'll be getting things professionally mastered so this seems to be the right way to go about things.
I'm very happy with my microphones at this point, and my pre-amps may not be the very best, but they are no slouches. I think I should upgrade my Warm WA-2A and I'd really like to add an EQ. I'm leaning toward a Pultec. Given my price range, I'd love to have a Stam, but I'm just not comfortable ordering gear from them given their track record. Does anyone know if their turnaround times are as advertised, and are they consistent these days? Otherwise, that leaves Audioscape, which is slightly less expensive but I know it's great gear.
Regarding a pultec, and considering that I would use it mostly on my vocal chain, but also on acoustic guitar, which model makes more sense? ..the MEQ or the EQP? My though is the MEQ. Hypothetically if I was able to purchase two so I had the option of adding them to my mix buss, which should I buy? My though is the EQP. Does anyone put both on their recording chain?
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Solaria
Dec 21, 2022 10:56:50 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 21, 2022 10:56:50 GMT -6
But can you make it sound real? I.e. not auto-tuned. Think of it as a variant of the Turing test. Are you fooled? The answer (in an exposed setting as a soloist) is decidedly no, at least currently. Though on the other hand I'd guess if carefully edited it would be good enough to fool a lot of non-musicians, etc. If Solaria sang a carol on one of those Hallmark Christmas TV shows, I'll bet most people wouldn't blink.
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Post by M57 on Dec 20, 2022 11:27:14 GMT -6
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Solaria
Dec 20, 2022 8:44:17 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 20, 2022 8:44:17 GMT -6
Getting in under the hood. Some of the editing capabilities are pretty impressive. There are at least a half dozen variable parameters that change the quality of the voice ..like gender, how breathy the singer, softness, tension etc, and they differ from voice to voice. you can set them globally or change them from note to note. The ability to re-draw pitch curves lets you finely control musical nuances like scooping and vibrato.
Perhaps one of the most surprising set of editing features involves the capability to edit the timing, duration and strength of phonemes on a note by note basis. To give an example, in the project I posted above I was finding that Solaria's default 'r' is harder (in a mid-western way) than mine when she sings the word "for." She is doubling the part I put down originally, and I wanted her to blend with me - not the other way around. When I typed the word "for" in on the note, the player automatically converted it into the phonemes (f ao r). To get her to blend with me I lengthened the duration of 'ao' and shortened the duration of 'r' while also bringing down the strength of the r. The sliders that do this are labelled with percentages, and the GUI superimposes the delineations between the phonemes on the waveform in the playing field. The only thing that could make it better would be if you could drag the delineation lines on the playing field. From there, and just to get things perfect, I made a slight adjustment to the pitch curve, making it line up with new placement of the phoneme attacks, though now I'm wondering if the program did this automatically when it re-drew the note. Honestly, I'm becoming more and more impressed with the range of stylistic adjustments you can make and how subtly you can tweak them. Like I said before, it's not quite good enough for really exposed parts, but this technology is only going to get better. I don't think anyone could tell with confidence that half of the singers on that recording are not real.
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Post by M57 on Dec 19, 2022 18:34:07 GMT -6
Like hypothetically? If someone handed you $5000 tomorrow to invest in the studio/album... what makes the most sense? Would you spend $5k on a manley vari mu for "mastering" or is it more likely you'd hire someone to master for $500 and drop the rest on a big pile of microphones? I know what I'd do! ..and that is??? Damn. Are you reading my mind? It's not hypothetical. This is almost exactly the situation I'm in, and the Manley vari-mu is on my list.
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Post by M57 on Dec 18, 2022 19:37:55 GMT -6
I decided to give Solaria a whirl, mostly because I really want a female voice to supplement my background vocals. I don't always like the sound of a chorus of me's. While I was at it, I picked up Kevin for an extra $70. I mean, I bought the synth, so I might as well get a couple patches out of it, right?
It's quite intuitive to use. I pretty easily figured out about 80% of it watching youtube tutorials with subtitles. After inputting notes and lyrics, right out of the blocks it sounds quite good but rather stylized, with lots of scooping for instance. I had to edit it quite a bit to get it where it needed to be, and that included a fair amount of drawing pitch curves.
Here's my first go-round with it. I covered a song by a songwriter I know from a different forum. You can hear S and K at the two bridge/chorus sections (@1:40 and 2:40) where I sang four parts and doubled two of them with Solaria, and two with Kevin, for a total of 8 tracks.
https%3A//soundcloud.com/m57/utopia-4-2
My first thoughts are it's ok. Solaria's style is up my alley, Kevin's not so much. His bass note are laughably out of tune (hes's definitely a tenor) and he's a bit too broadway for my needs, but I was able to tame him enough to be usable for the project. You actually have a surprising amount of control over a number of qualities of each voice. Intensity, breathiness, vibrato, etc, and you can edit them either globally or by note. You can type lyrics in phonetically, but it can be hit or miss. if you want precision, it's best to learn and use the ARPABET.
In the future I can see myself using this VI, but subtly, and probably never in exposed settings except maybe for effect. I listened to demos of the other two female singers who sing in English and I don't think I'll getting them.
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Solaria
Dec 17, 2022 6:01:30 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 17, 2022 6:01:30 GMT -6
I hate AI. AI anything in fact. To me, it's the exact opposite of the human soul and it's the human soul that I search for in everything in my life and in art. But I get it, I'm an old man now at 59 and the world will move on without me and be whatever it's going to be. As to the technology involved in this product, it's hard not to be impressed from the perspective of admiring how very clever software engineers have become. I'm older than you are, but I find myself at the opposite end of the issue. I wonder that AI may offer the only way to save this fragile planet, and humanity along with it. BTW, wasn't the 'singularity' predicted to hit around 2020? Instead we got Covid. Hmm.. Coincidence?? (I kid). As for Solaria, Of course it's nothing more than a hyper-enhanced VI, but damn, it looks to be amazing, and the company already has 10 or so voices out there (only two of which sing in English, one male and one female). So I just pulled the trigger and purchased Solaria and the upgraded V Studio Pro, which among other things is necessary in order to use multiple samples across a range of pitches. I'm looking forward to playing with it.. and I'll get back with my thoughts.
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 14:39:34 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 14:39:34 GMT -6
You mean like using synthesizers and orchestral libraries so you don't have to pay real musicians? You bring up a good point here, of course. I'm not saying I know where to draw the line, but I do believe the line should be somewhere on this side of "no humans were involved in the making of this musical work." Recently, it's been mastering, right? That's been a discussion point here for a few years now. Anyway ..the line has been drawn, and it's a slippery slope. Metaphorically speaking it's already engaged at 12db per octave. Prepare for AI to dial it in a lot more ..and pour a little extra grease on it for good measure. Hold on to your hats! And thanks for putting up with my obstinance. Getting back on topic
I'm actually thinking of picking up Solaria. I think that voice will blend pretty well with mine, especially if she's mostly doubling me. One of the things I'm paying close attention to are 'her' vowels, and I'm asking myself, are they like mine? I can't expect them to be perfect, so I'm curious to see if it's possible to alter formants and other aspects of the voice. It look like it's under $100. Am I reading that right?
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 14:19:39 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 14:19:39 GMT -6
I guess the way I see it, or hope to see it progress, is that AI becomes the catalyst for a new era of creativity. Of course, it's natural for us to be scared (and skeptical) of the unknown, and there's enough history to support our concerns. But there's no stopping progress; we have to choose our mind-set. Either grab it by the horns, or run like hell away from it. We can look at the past to get an idea of what that future might look like. Of course, it will involve disruption and even destruction. We can ask what happened to all those musicians who lost jobs to VI libraries, OR we can look at how much music was written that never could have happened without those libraries. I'm sure we can all agree that anyone who's been making music for a few decades can empathize with musicians on both sides of that equation.
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Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 13:46:49 GMT -6
You mean like using synthesizers and orchestral libraries so you don't have to pay real musicians? For me, the distinction lies in the fact that with loops, virtual instruments, digital editing, samples, etc., it’s ultimately a human that determines the end result. And to be clear, I definitely think people already take that stuff too far as it is. I’m sure some form of AI will eventually be able to generate incredible musical pieces, but I’m pretty much completely uninterested, because it removes the one thing that makes art meaningful to me personally, which is human creativity. I completely agree. Despite the fact that they can blow humans out of the water, I have no interest in watching chess programs battle each other. To be human is to be perfectly imperfect. A computer will never achieve that.
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 13:15:23 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 13:15:23 GMT -6
You mean like using synthesizers and orchestral libraries so you don't have to pay real musicians?
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 12:50:44 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 12:50:44 GMT -6
.. we are destroying our civilization with AI, and that we will come to regret it... It's AI , not the Borg. Only humans can destroy civilization. I'm much more worried about fake truth than "fake" music.
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 12:40:23 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 12:40:23 GMT -6
Nobody seems to have a problem with "musicians" using loops, including drum, chord progressions, bass lines, and other band in a box type cheats to write "original" music, ..but they get all bent out of shape when they realize a program can do the same thing? AI doesn't have to be the enemy. It can be a tool. Would I consider using either of those posted lyrics that the AI wrote? No, but might I consider using them as a seed to inspire my own creativity? Absolutely.
I think of the chess analog.. Machines can easily wipe the floor against the best humans at chess, but it hasn't put a dent in people's enthusiasm for the game. In many ways, quite the contrary. All competitive players now use computers to hone their skills and devise strategies in preparation for upcoming matches. All matches are analyzed by machines in real time and provide audiences with a much richer and more nuanced experience. I look forward to the day when AI songwriting easily passes the Turing test. BTW, those lyrics certainly do. In fact, sadly, they're better than most.
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 11:54:03 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 11:54:03 GMT -6
I think AI songwriting is one of the corniest fucking thing I can think of. Hah! Check this out.. I came across this AI site the other day. beta.openai.com/playground?model=text-davinci-003I gave it the following prompt.. Write a lyric about a man who wears a different sweater every day in order to help him hide his true self, both from himself and others. Have him start a romantic relationship with someone who tries to help him recognize this fault, but in the end, he is unable to do this, even if it costs him true love. Verse 1: A man of many sweaters, with a fragile heart Tries to hide himself from the world, and from the start His love so deep and passionate, yet he can't confess The fear of being seen keeps him from true love's caress Chorus: The sweaters keep his secrets hidden, a disguise to be But his true self is hidden, even from himself and me Verse 2: He longs for someone to know him, to break down the wall He meets a girl who sees past his facade and stands tall She offers him the chance to show his true heart and soul But he's too scared to trust, so he keeps her from his whole Chorus: The sweaters keep his secrets hidden, a disguise to be But his true self is hidden, even from himself and me Verse 3: He's broken-hearted now, for love he didn't take His fear of being seen was just too much to make He'll never know what could have been if he let her in A love so pure, he could have been, if only he'd begin Chorus: The sweaters keep.. Pretty cool. Then I decided to give it one with a few technical instructions.. write a lyric where printers will only print truth. Use the contrast between color and black and white as a metaphor. Use only 3 feet per stanza. Verse 1 Lies so dark, they paint the sky Truth in stark, a simple white Colors of lies, they flutter by In monochrome, the truth is spied Verse 2 Colors of lies, they cloud the view In a world of black and white Truth is clear, for all to see From the printer, no more deceit
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Solaria
Dec 16, 2022 9:20:44 GMT -6
Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 9:20:44 GMT -6
@johnkenn I'm assuming this is a plugin, so I posting here, but please move it to the correct forum if you think it doesn't belong here. www.eclipsedsounds.com/solariaI'm curious to hear what folks think about this. Already, more voices are being released.
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Post by M57 on Dec 16, 2022 8:52:58 GMT -6
My first thought was that I would be honored to have any of my music considered. But clearly a process needs to be agreed upon. Who decides what's included and order, etc, and what are the criteria for those decisions? Consider that we may need to prevent a lurker who's never participated in the forums from submitting a track? What legal considerations need to be considered? There's quite a range of songwriters/composers on this site, ranging from pros to hobbyists. There's bound to be a range of quality in recordings (a subjective subject to be sure, but it's almost bound to come up). So for instance, might there be a need for a quality commitee (no participants allowed)? ..which sounds draconian and could easily eliminate me from the project, and that would be ok. If the songs stream from one source, might the participants be able to agree on one to master them all? Ok, Ok, I'll stop..
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Post by M57 on Dec 14, 2022 17:44:22 GMT -6
For me it's a matter of function.. If the tune is guitar driven, I tend to favor two mics, an LDC "over shoulder" and an equidistant SDC aimed at the body below the high frets. Otherwise just a lone SDC aimed similarly, but a little closer.
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Post by M57 on Dec 14, 2022 13:30:45 GMT -6
I'd be curious what audio interface M57 is using, as I've noticed a lot more clarity when using a high-end pre (like the Great River, although I have no experience with the 500 series unit) directly into a proper data-path than otherwise. I'm pretty happy with my chains. Vocal BSA UM4X --> Great River NP-500NV --> Warm WA-2A --> MOTU 828 ES Piano AKG C-451Bs --> A designs P-1s -- MOTU I have other mics and pre-amps but these are my go-to's. Once in the box it stays there except when I throw an AudioScape Buss Compressor on the mix buss. My initial thoughts were to get another compressor/color box for the Mix Buss, which I could also use for printing, but this thread has made me reconsider my options. It started out compression, compression, compression, but there are clearly other options that I should seriously research/consider. I'd have to get a bigger lunchbox if I decided to get an EQ or two (for recording) ..but then at that point, I figure that might force my hand and I'd be temped to fill the extra slots with a nice stereo compressor, like an API 529. But I've been considering 19" gear, with things like the Silver Bullet, Black Box, Manley Var-Mu, etc. That's the point of this thread. Given the quality of plugins these days, I want to make sure I'm putting up the big bucks for the equipment that will make the most impact. Maybe I should save a lot and I just focus on gear like EQs that I use before things get to the box (though I could use any of the gear I've mentioned for that too).
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Post by M57 on Dec 14, 2022 5:48:33 GMT -6
I almost always want EQ on every little thing though. Especially EQ that sounds like it’s part of the source, I can re-shape the mic or source with EQ. Obviously, putting a real EQ on every track is too expensive, so I assume you record through EQ hardware. The problem is that you have to commit. Do you ever find yourself printing already recorded tracks through EQ hardware?
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