|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 16:33:53 GMT -6
Bock/ Soundelux 195 & 95 used Chinese capsules Manley Cardiod uses one as did the Manley "Langvin" mics so Not sure of exact source so this may be true! Neither MFG has denied this fact! The new force line might be manufactured there, im aware that they do a fair amount of metalwork for folks (the boxes look familiar)- but i HIGHLY doubt that any of the big pricetag legacy hardware is assembled at 797. I cant speak for certain as to Bock but It sounds like just another half-baked broadstroke claim - as the kids say "pics or it didnt happen"
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 14:22:23 GMT -6
Sure SM58's kinda resemble U47's when put through top of the line outboard. You are quite correct! You should hear an A/B of an SM7 vs a long-body u47 through a certain domestic mfgs tube preamp. Very interesting -
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 13:07:06 GMT -6
Manley uses 797audio. Not the worst in China by any margin... Bock uses them too. more #fakenews
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 12:57:04 GMT -6
Capsules are a dark art component, made by CNC machines in China by the hundreds of thousands every month, for the last 50-years... You simply don't know what you're talking about. You failed to ask normally, but here's your breakdown attached in PDF to not clog up the thread. But... this entire post is pointless, because you have no idea what any of this costs... You're stuck in some imaginary world where it's okay to pay $900 for the Delphos, and Chinese microphone capsules are a dark art where 70% of them fail or are rejected... Funnily enough, those other companies listed in the breakdown seem to be doing just fine selling with 50% of Roswell's margin. The reality is that a transformerless FET mic like the Delphos, with a Chinese capsule, is not worth more than $300 in the current market. If that price is impossible to achieve, then it's not a viable product. By no means is it a premium or boutique product, just because you're assembling a PCB in the US. And by no means should clients be paying for your inefficiencies as a manufacturer. More importantly, the sound of that capsule, it doesn't change because you're soldering a wire in California! Now who am I? I could be a consumer, a manufacturer, or even a factory owner. Difference between me and you, I don't talk about things I know nothing about (and I don't go around telling people Elektro-Harmonix tubes are Made in China) But please, by all means, take my breakdown apart. I'm looking forward to actual quotes from China to back your claims up, otherwise, once again, you don't have a leg to stand on. Capsule quote also attached. So you believe that CNC machines knocking things out by the thousands can match the quality of skilled machinists working to an exacting spec? Man, my late uncle - who was a master machinist and shop foreman for Western Electric would have a few things to teach you.... There's a reason that the only companies that come close to the quality of mics produced in the "golden age" manufacture their capsules by hand. You should think about it. Anbd it's, er, "interesting" that you should be telling Coil Audio, who is in the business of manufacturing audio devices, that "But... this entire post is pointless, because you have no idea what any of this costs... You're stuck in some imaginary world... " I would suggest that you rethink that. Really. And please enlighten us - what audio company do YOU operate? Let's put things on a fair footing here. Me, I'm just a service tech as far as this conversation is concerned. Thats really cool about your uncle - he'd probably have ALOT to say in regards to this exchange (term used very loosely) -
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 8, 2017 0:20:47 GMT -6
I used to feel like Coil. "Everything Chinese is crap or stolen". I think it used to be that way more than it is now. I don't feel that anymore. Things are changing in China at warp speed. If you're getting a 40% failure rate on Chinese parts, you need to find a different vendor. There IS quality available. Junk too. It's up to the purchaser to discern which is which - and be flexable to change vendors. But for the original thought OP - there is a KMS 84 that Neumann designed specifically for vocals. Essentially a KM84 with pop filtering in front of the capsule. I always wondered about a screw on LDC capsule ala the Gefell UM series. Would be cool. I don't know why anyone has not done it. The threading is almost microscopic, but I'm sure it's doable with good machining. Our official position is not "Everything Chinese is crap or stolen" by any means - but more "Proceed with caution and always do your due diligence". This isnt another 'man - china sucks' played out bro dude diatribe (Zzzz) so i apologize if it came off as such- but for what its worth, we employ the same scrutiny for domestic parts as well. We also use the same vendors everyone else uses (Digi-Key, Allied, Mouser etc) and luckily, most of them will take a return for faulty parts -but not always. The switches i referred to in a previous post are most def. the worst example we've experienced to date, but that's still not acceptable by any stretch of reason. Theres no real way to let others know specific parts are inferior in a timely or trustworthy fashion (no Amazon reviews to leave) - besides, by the time you could do something some guy that bought ONE working one will be posting on every forum possible and telling his internet pals how reliable and awesome they are in his new hairball kit. Thus perpetuating the myth - Things have changed a bit in China - i wouldn't say at warp speed, but i'd sort of agree its better than it was 10-15 yrs ago. That is mostly due to the fact that the companies that want to successfully build there (pro audio or otherwise) are forced to religiously babysit their operations, usually multiple times per year, to maintain any level of QC or risk suffering. Id personally rather save that 2k flight+ expenses per trip (a year of those adds up to a lot real quick) the headaches, and the hassle, and invest that tiny fortune into a better domestic mfg scenario if/when at all possible. Alas, that is not a popular MO these days. Just to be crystal clear - we've had GREAT experiences sourcing parts from overseas but its a toss up and requires some serious vigilance and oversight- (as i knock on wood looking at a tray of phase switches to be cycled) Your recommendations are great drbill and ericn but its all much easier said than done and never quite so black and white. Switching vendors up sometimes helps but isnt always a foolproof play- faulty parts can flood the system very quickly before they are caught (if they are at all) and then there are always the leftovers like landmines to avoid afterwards. The only thing we can do is put protocols in place that take up time and therefore money to minimize the risk as much as possible. Theres also the perpetuated myth that stringent QC alone automatically gives a product or part inherent 'integrity' or 'longevity' - its just not true. Especially when it comes to the 'dark arts' components i.e. vacuum tube, transformer, and mic capsule production techniques. Its great that a decent mic capsule can be made for cheap overseas and all in 2017 - but i doubt that will be the case for the other 2 anytime soon. That attention to detail is not required to make half-baked clone stuff that sells to ignorant forum groupies following the hype machine - There is still the test of time to consider for all this new awesome overseas stuff (which has always been the case)- it will be very interesting to see which pieces of praised overseas built gear of late(clones or otherwise) will withstand a decade of actual daily studio use (or hobby use for that matter). This will be a great thread to revisit in 2027 -
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 7, 2017 23:20:22 GMT -6
Actually - its a solid comparison you made johneppstein. These are considered 'dark arts' components that take actual experience, knowledge and attention to detail to manufacture yet seem to evade modern overseas production and fall very short. But according to an expert over on forum x that builds Drip kits - rejection rates are zero to 10%.
Still eagerly waiting on that breakdown jake....take all the time you need.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 7, 2017 21:57:18 GMT -6
Dear jakeharris - i am eagerly awaiting your complete breakdown of the Delphos microphone and a copy of your resumé.
signed - Your Mom
(PS just go ahead and 'EDIT' the info into the post above jake, you master comment editor you!! - lets save some post space for people that want to learn about the subject of the thread as opposed to pouring over your fake news stories mkay thx)
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 7, 2017 19:51:46 GMT -6
I love how these conversations regularly spin into 'Im so old and experienced – yet I don't know anything about what's being discussed – but I'll still tell you how the world works'. Some free advice, next time you write a condescending reply, have a leg to stand on... For starters, what do microphone capsules, manufactured by specific Chinese factories, have to do with randomly purchased brand-name 'Made in China' switches or tubes, manufactured by unknown factories? How is that relevant to this discussion? And who's bragging... I never said I ran that GDIY order. In contrast, you're arrogantly slamming Chinese manufacturing as GARBAGE, which is an illogical position to hold in 2017. As an example, you've tested switches from a crappy brand, and instead of blaming the brand for making something low-quality and unreliable, you blame the Chinese who made them? If you paused for a second, do you not think the Chinese produced those switches to the exact crappy specifications provided by the brand? Why does it have to be the Chinese manufacturing that's at fault? Either way, if you were producing something there, and the factory was failing to meet your specs with 30-40% rejection rates, then we'd have something to discuss. Now with New Sensor tubes, you've completely lost me – they're not even Chinese... It's an American corporation selling Russian tubes. But just to be clear, 1) ACME buys Russian crap from a US corporation, 2) ACME complains they don't meet their specifications or pass testing, and then 3) you blame the Chinese?! That's an American company swindling ACME with reject tubes, and it's an American providing poor after-sales service with no refunds. Let's be honest though, if you're cheap enough to be buying actual Chinese made tubes, don't then complain they're crap. There's no excuse for using them in a professional grade product. (one of the worst microphones I've heard, is the mparts 87 kit. I've already posted gut pics of the $900 Delphos. The internet is full of comments of how poor the mparts capsules are, by people who have actually heard better – including myself. I don't blame people thinking they're decent, if they haven't heard better. Doesn't mean $150/capsule is justified). Thanks for your comment jake and allow me to extend some 'free advice' to you. You yourself should try to stay consistent and on topic here if you're going to troll around. Where in this thread were you being specific at any time.? Answer: You were not. I merely responded to your very generalized blanket statement (of misinformation) with a few examples regarding the majority of overseas pro audio mfg in my (and MANY others) experience. Its called a conversation. Regarding your personal expertise and experience Jake, are you a manufacturer of anything pro audio - foreign or domestic? Anything besides snide off topic commentary and amateur pricing of someones products you have no knowledge of or experience using? Where is your skin in the game.? If the internet is your lone 'source' of knowledge- thats cool man <shruggy guy> but I'll pass on opening a factory overseas to have something to prove to you here - especially when it comes to arguing the current state of " who rolls the best chinese mic capsules?" with 'internet forum certified' experts such as yourself. LOL - ZZZZZZzzzzzzzz So your GDIY counter argument (leg to stand on) is something you read about but didnt take part in then? In all your specifics and bravado you sure made it sound like you did- and thats cool, more refreshing internet conjecture to confuse the next guy. Maybe in the future, in threads about products, again, you have no real knowledge of or experience with, you should apply this easy to use preface "I read on the internet ..." to your comments about such things as to avoid the confusion of what is YOUR ACTUAL EXPERIENCE versus that of THE INTERNET. Im sure its all true though......<eyerolls across the universe> You also completely missed the point regarding New Sensor and im sorry i lost you so easily, but i do concur with you, there is no excuse for their use in a 'professional grade product'. However, the fact remains - they are used almost exclusively by every major mfg using vacuum tubes today. They kinda have to - We all know why - errr..... i hope(?) and we all know where they are actually made. (though that seems to be an awful assumption to make as of late - as exemplified here) To simply claim that they are an "American company selling 'Russian' tubes" is akin to saying "warm audio is an American company selling 'American' or 'German' gear" - its KIND OF the truth, but not the ENTIRE truth- actually pretty FAR from the entire truth. So lets not get lost in the simplified broad stroke descriptions supplied by the pages of Wikipedia. Anyway, i digress- My point is that the number crunchers count on these failure rates and instead of fixing the inherent production issue (as with nib tubes for example) those failures are averaged and accounted for and on and on it goes. Almost everyone does this in some way- its an expected/accepted practice. So sure- through those rose-colored lenses i'll concede and agree with you completely jake! - failure rates from overseas ARE '0-10%'!! (note: After a dozen additional rounds of QC and ignoring the contents of the rubbish bin).You are correct! Thank you for welcoming me to 2017! Just a heads up - this thread is specifically about the 'LDC with KM84 circuit' (i.e. T-12 mic kit) not the '87' kit you claimed to have heard ....also, comparing a 'kit' capsule to a mfg product capsule (thats tested and burned in domestically) is quite absurd - not that you seem to care - because its all barely worth a "maximum of $300" according to your ultra specific/part by part price analysis + labor breakdown amiright? LOL
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 5, 2017 20:44:33 GMT -6
"0-10% rejection rates" LOL - are we talking about fidget spinners here? Respectfully - You. Are. Mistaken. What are you currently producing in China, to be experiencing such high failure/rejection rates? Nothing? Well, how about a group-buy on GroupDIY, of 500 capsules from the exact factory that m-parts uses. Exactly the same capsules purchased for under $30/pc. Tested to sound identical to mparts capsules after they took delivery. Failed or rejected capsules out of 500 = Z E R O. Not one faulty capsule. So yes... LOL for thinking it's still 20-years ago. So because you successfully ordered 500 perfect 'identical to mparts' capsules then all of us peasants  can expect those same returns on all overseas chinese mfg'ing? Maybe try 10x that amount and then maybe you'll have something to brag about, but one successful order isn't really a convincing argument- maybe for GroupDIY'ers but not someone looking to build quality products for daily use. We dont manufacture anything overseas as you correctly pointed out - but that doesnt mean we arent forced to use parts from there and trust me - those failure rates are much higher than '0-10%'. LOL In fact, for a simple brand name phase switch - failure rates so far are around 30% after 100 cycles, another switch we explored was almost half for every 100pcs after LESS than 100 cycles - these are considered 'excellent' switches too. Then there is New Sensor vacuum tubes - just ask Al from Acme about how many of a 100 lot survive a mere 24 hours of burn-in. Last he reported it varied from 20%-45% - no refunds for those that dont survive - nada. Why? Because its GARBAGE. Why do you think anyone that does well in this space performs a rigorous second round of QC once it arrives off the boat? I could keep going, especially when it comes to Transformers - but i'll spare you my 'old man' rant. So in closing - glad to hear your awesome GroupDIY capsule order ruled so hard, but mic capsules alone dont define chinese manufacturing standards and expectations - sorry. BTW - you seem to have a few rough critiques about the Roswell mics or MParts in particular, have you heard, used, or seen that mic in person? or the mpart mic described here? Or any for that matter? Just curious.....
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Aug 3, 2017 13:50:13 GMT -6
Are you certain? Is it standard Chinaware, or has it been through a hand selection process? Let's see - IF it's hand selected, and if only 1 out of 3 capsules makes the cut (not an unreasonable assumption), then that pretty much explains the 70% difference, with a few cents left over to cover the labor of testing. Not saying one way or the other (not in a position to know), but it's something that definitely be taken into consideration. It's 2017. Chinese output operates at 0 to 10% rejection rates, not 60-70% as you're suggesting. And that 10% rejected, you can sell off as 'b-stock' for half-price, and still turn a profit. You never need to take a hit when starting this high. It's. all. mark-up. "0-10% rejection rates" LOL - are we talking about fidget spinners here? Respectfully - You. Are. Mistaken.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 28, 2017 21:59:03 GMT -6
By height...
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 27, 2017 21:48:14 GMT -6
Needless to say, the NPNG blows the roof of a Squalid Stale Logix Preamp! LOL HA! Yeah. i mean- Who wants to plug their mics into something that looks like a dell computer inside.?
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 27, 2017 21:45:16 GMT -6
Yes, I think they were well packed. Well, it was just random bad luck. Fortunately I'm not in a hurry for the replacement! I can see in this video that they are safe in front of a bass drum as long as the air is not hitting them: If it makes you feel any better - we had a pair of SR-2Ns arrive and one was DOA completely as well. Matt had one in stock and took care of it the next day. We've also had Coles and RCA mics come back from service busted over the years due to being beaten in transit. I know both the UPS and USPS unloading belts can shoot packages up to 40mph or something ridiculous - my UPS guy always like to joke about our FRAGILE stickers we put on our boxes due to the speed those belts fire stuff around.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 26, 2017 15:42:18 GMT -6
Concur with Doug and the proximity of these guys - Not to rain on the testing parade as this is sort of a daunting task to begin with - but we've found that for low wattage recording amps (such as the oahu used here) you can put the sr-2n right up on the speaker with no issues ALA 'sm57 style' - it only gets bigger and better. The AEA 44 - i have no experience with personally, but with an RCA 44 id start at the same distance adam did - and then slowly move it closer/back/side to side until the magic spot is found. Not saying adam didnt do this but its hard to keep two very different ribbon mics to 'speak' in a similar fashion or close enough to analyze with a fine tooth comb -so for that i applaud this effort.
Ideally, a passive ribbon mic should be amplified downstream by something with a transformer coupled input as intended by its original design. In the past (80's til now) ribbons were closeted due to sounding 'shitty' when used with an SSL or other transformerless consoles/preamps - but somehow worked great when plugged into that old crusty tube preamp being used as a doorstop in the corner of the tech closet. Transformers like to 'talk' to each other on the audio line and that language cannot be replaced/supplemented by electronic balancing when it comes to a passive ribbon, sure some heroic SS efforts can be implemented - but at a cost much greater than a simple transformer can provide easily. Impedance is very important with these simple passive/mechanical devices and only a proper transformer on both ends can keep it 'stiff and happy' enough to reveal its intended performance. The 'distortions' that people refer to are usually due to these floppy impedances in the signal chain between the mic and pre.
Id be interested in a shoot out with the sub $1500 AEA mics against the Stagers - seems like a more 'fair' fight but this pretty much sums it up pretty well. Big Thanks to Adam for this!
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 19, 2017 23:21:53 GMT -6
Absolutely - there is DEFINITELY no comparison at its price point. Its like a sub kick for guitar amps. The best chain ive ever heard for guitar amp is either an SR-1A or SR-2N through our CA-70 circuit. As for the SR-1A versus an RCA 44 - i dont miss the 44 when using the SR-1A at all. It might be a bit bigger sounding even - You so mean!
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 19, 2017 23:21:24 GMT -6
So would you recommend the SR-2N for drums as strongly too? Without hesitation -
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 19, 2017 11:33:30 GMT -6
I am! Its gospel at this point. Been using Coles 4038s almost daily for 20+ years - i never thought ANYTHING could replace it - until the Stagers came along. Put them next to a Coles - they're bigger, Put 'em next to an AEA (any model)- the AEA will sound scooped and thin. We pretty much established this in the first 10 seconds of our little event in Nashville the other day using one great tube preamp and a single SR-1A over a drum kit - the result was jaw dropping. Do you feel similarly about the Stager SR-2N? Absolutely - there is DEFINITELY no comparison at its price point. Its like a sub kick for guitar amps. The best chain ive ever heard for guitar amp is either an SR-1A or SR-2N through our CA-70 circuit. As for the SR-1A versus an RCA 44 - i dont miss the 44 when using the SR-1A at all. It might be a bit bigger sounding even -
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 18, 2017 9:34:52 GMT -6
Stager SR-2N or SR-1A - thank me later Man I Hope your right! I am! Its gospel at this point. Been using Coles 4038s almost daily for 20+ years - i never thought ANYTHING could replace it - until the Stagers came along. Put them next to a Coles - they're bigger, Put 'em next to an AEA (any model)- the AEA will sound scooped and thin. We pretty much established this in the first 10 seconds of our little event in Nashville the other day using one great tube preamp and a single SR-1A over a drum kit - the result was jaw dropping.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jul 16, 2017 23:30:58 GMT -6
Stager SR-2N or SR-1A - thank me later
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Jun 17, 2017 0:17:46 GMT -6
LOGITECH MARBLE MOUSE TRACKBALL - smaller ball - not as heavy or hard to shove around as the others mentioned. Treat yourself!
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on May 11, 2017 12:55:04 GMT -6
Coil Audio YEAH! When is that thing coming?? CA70 SC Its looking like July at this point, we're having the faceplates etched and filled with an epoxy paint to really make these little guys pop- so thats a bit of an undertaking. Still on the fence about a summer NAMM appearance/booth, we might just come down to hang out and drink all of Sputniks booze.
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on May 10, 2017 9:45:58 GMT -6
Other than Coil Audio and myself, has anyone here used an RCA BA-2, Collins 6Q-1, or Gates SA-70? Those are old and sucky - nobody wants those! Maybe if you replaced the old tubes with some fresh JJ's? -but still, theres no bluetooth/usb. Lame
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on May 8, 2017 16:32:58 GMT -6
2cents (if you diy at all or know a tech) If EmRR still has his Gates SA-70 pair for sale over in the classifieds (for $700 ?) we'd absolutely sell you one of our fancy 2u rackmount PSU to power it - that leaves you with quite a bit leftover in your budget to rack the pres in a nice chassis with cool knobs n such that would last more than 50 years. Id say we could rack it but theres too much on the work platter currently (i.e. single channel CA-70 and EQ that will be in that 1k budget range <shakes fist to the sky emoji> Those SA-70s are light years ahead of anything mentioned so far in tone and density - and at that price per channel, its kind of a no brainer - Again, only If you have the means .... I deserve 50 lashs 25 for forgetting Dougs Sa70's and 25 for forgetting my neighbors at Coil! Both others would be in a Tone at 11 the Demeter is about Tone at 4 on the imaginary 1-10 tone dial! Dont flogg yourself too hard now ericn- you'll need your strength to cut out those panel mount XLR holes!
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on May 8, 2017 15:26:04 GMT -6
2cents (if you diy at all or know a tech)
If EmRR still has his Gates SA-70 pair for sale over in the classifieds (for $700 ?) we'd absolutely sell you one of our fancy 2u rackmount PSU to power it - that leaves you with quite a bit leftover in your budget to rack the pres in a nice chassis with cool knobs n such that would last more than 50 years. Id say we could rack it but theres too much on the work platter currently (i.e. single channel CA-70 and EQ that will be in that 1k budget range <shakes fist to the sky emoji>
Those SA-70s are light years ahead of anything mentioned so far in tone and density - and at that price per channel, its kind of a no brainer - Again, only If you have the means ....
|
|
|
Post by Coil Audio on Mar 20, 2017 22:54:29 GMT -6
and it looks minty fresh too! Obviously wasn't doing time as a door stop during the 80's/90's ;P
|
|