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Post by M57 on Jun 2, 2019 4:20:21 GMT -6
I'm working on a mix that has a few moments where the arrangement gets very dense with a lot of orchestral tracks and the vocal gets squeezed too much. Before I knock myself out I thought I'd ask for opinions.. Here are some options that come to mind - Micromanage/automate the vocal fader
- Carve space out of the individual orchestral tracks - but sometimes they play where there's no vocal
- Send the ensemble to a buss and key a compressor with the vocal side-chained
- Combination of any or all of the above
What do folks recommend? Any other suggestions? I posted it early in the 'What are you working on' forum, but here's a SC link. Johnkenn - please move this to the appropriate forum if it doesn't belong here.
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Post by drbill on Jun 2, 2019 9:18:00 GMT -6
Automation of all (most) elements works for me.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 2, 2019 9:48:53 GMT -6
I like side chaining a dynamic eq in those situations.
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Post by drsax on Jun 2, 2019 10:31:03 GMT -6
Automation of all (most) elements works for me. Diddo... and also some judicious EQing of some of the surrounding parts can help a lot too. For instance, you may have the orchestral stuff sounding just the want you want it on its own, but you may have to make an EQ move there that you wouldn’t normally do, to help things settle in the track. Like pulling the lows or low mids back a touch or boosting somewhere in the mids or highs to help that element stand out without messing with the vocal. Or automating EQ on a few tracks just in the congested spots can help as well. But as drbill said, automation is your friend in these situations
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Post by drsax on Jun 2, 2019 10:35:00 GMT -6
I like side chaining a dynamic eq in those situations. Yeah, Dynamic EQ is also great in these situations. I find myself using it to catch low mids on certain tracks when they build up a little too much
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Post by M57 on Jun 2, 2019 10:44:35 GMT -6
Automation of all (most) elements works for me. Yeah, I did heavily automate the orchestra (and not just volume of course - expression, etc.) - might as well give the vocal similar attention to detail. Also realizing that I've probably push the orchestra too hard and it would probably help to pull back the entire ensemble in places. That might make it so I don't have to compress the 2-buss as aggressively. NB: I noticed that the timpani/bass drum rolls are driven into distortion right as they approach the downbeat. I'm was going to fix, but I'm kind of liking how they fall apart as they arrive. I'm using pads and elements with distortion elsewhere so it's not like I feel obligated to have a super clean sound. It's always interesting to me when the unintended (some people call them mistakes) become a valued part of the performance/mix.
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Post by M57 on Jun 2, 2019 10:53:11 GMT -6
I like side chaining a dynamic eq in those situations. Are you talking about a multi-band compressor? ..or one of those newfangled plugins that follows the fundamental/harmonics of the track and processes accordingly? I tried using a couple MB compressors a few years back (Logic's stock and Waves). I couldn't get them to make things sound any better - hell, maybe even worse - but then, I didn't know what I was doing. Guess I should give them another try at some point. If I did, how would I go about it? Slapping them on a bunch of individual tracks all with a vocal side chain?
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Post by Tbone81 on Jun 2, 2019 11:14:48 GMT -6
I like side chaining a dynamic eq in those situations. Are you talking about a multi-band compressor? ..or one of those newfangled plugins that follows the fundamental/harmonics of the track and processes accordingly? I tried using a couple MB compressors a few years back (Logic's stock and Waves). I couldn't get them to make things sound any better - hell, maybe even worse - but then, I didn't know what I was doing. Guess I should give them another try at some point. If I did, how would I go about it? Slapping them on a bunch of individual tracks all with a vocal side chain? I guess in some ways a multi band comp and dynamic eq are sorta the same thing, but in operation they work differently. I use the Melda Audio Auto Dynamic eq. As an example: you can bus all the orchestral elements and put the auto eq on that bus. Then activate the sidechain. Feed the sidechain from a send on the vocal track. Then select one (or more) bands of eq, that are now triggered by the vocals, in places that will help make room for the vocal track. In the melda plug it gives you the option of seeing a real time freq analyzer and/or spectrograph so you can see which frequencies are coming from the sidechain. You’re basically ducking the orchestra but only in specific eq bands. It’s a super smooth way of making elements gel and is sometimes easier than automating.
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Post by M57 on Jun 3, 2019 6:29:02 GMT -6
So I ended up doing the job with more automation, and not just with the vocal. I don't know how folks do it in working recording studios, but I also ended up having to adjust a number of the orchestral tracks to compensate for compression applied on 2-buss. I could probably stand to tweak it more, but it's much better already.
I have in the past sent the rhythm section to a buss with a vocal side chain and I remember it worked really well. Just shaving off 1db really let the vocal glide on top of the mix, but doing that with this mix didn't seem to make as much sense because the dynamics are all over the place in the arrangement.
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Post by svart on Jun 3, 2019 6:32:42 GMT -6
There's absolutely no reason to make it too complicated. If you can find what exactly is offending, just automate it down a few dB during the offending moments.
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Post by M57 on Jun 3, 2019 7:09:15 GMT -6
There's absolutely no reason to make it too complicated. If you can find what exactly is offending, just automate it down a few dB during the offending moments. Right; There were a half dozen or so orchestral tracks that were just mixed too high in one or two places. It wasn't just a matter of pushing the vocal up. It was an ensemble thing that was just not as apparent until I slapped a compressor on the entire mix. Compared to a putting a vocal side chain on a bussed compressor, it's complicated in a different way I suppose. Six of one.. Though I'm tempted to think that getting the levels right without having to compress with a SC is probably the preferred solution.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 3, 2019 7:31:23 GMT -6
Yes,svart makes sense. just automate the vocal in the part you need more of, and automate the places where the mix is too high. There are a number of ways I guess. I would send the orchestral group to a bus, and automate the buss just enough before trying to raise the vocal. I'm not that skilled in Logic, so there may be better solutions.
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Post by svart on Jun 3, 2019 7:45:43 GMT -6
There's absolutely no reason to make it too complicated. If you can find what exactly is offending, just automate it down a few dB during the offending moments. Right; There were a half dozen or so orchestral tracks that were just mixed too high in one or two places. It wasn't just a matter of pushing the vocal up. It was an ensemble thing that was just not as apparent until I slapped a compressor on the entire mix. Compared to a putting a vocal side chain on a bussed compressor, it's complicated in a different way I suppose. Six of one.. Though I'm tempted to think that getting the levels right without having to compress with a SC is probably the preferred solution. I should have been more clear about leaving the vocals right where they should be and automating down specific tracks around it. If you have a ton of bus compression, automating the vocal up will just result in more congestion in the vocal track. I would avoid all things sidechain on something like this as you'll introduce more strangeness to the whole mix. It's easier to just find the tracks that have the biggest masking effect and just automate those down a couple dB. I wouldn't do *all* the other tracks, just the ones that seem to cover it up the vocals the most.
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Post by svart on Jun 3, 2019 7:48:04 GMT -6
Yes,svart makes sense. just automate the vocal in the part you need more of, and automate the places where the mix is too high. There are a number of ways I guess. I would send the orchestral group to a bus, and automate the buss just enough before trying to raise the vocal. I'm not that skilled in Logic, so there may be better solutions. I replied above, but I should have been more clear about leaving the vocal where it sits and automating the other offending tracks around it. Most of the time if you have further compression on the whole mix, automating something up will only add to more compression congestion. There's going to be a few instruments or tracks that are stepping on the vocals more than others, I'd just find those and automate them down a little during the sections that need it.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jun 3, 2019 8:48:21 GMT -6
I wasn't clear enough. I agree with svart, try lowering the offending tracks first. That said, bringing a vocal up say.. .3 or .4db at a few points shouldn't make any difference to your compressors.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 5, 2019 19:34:21 GMT -6
Not so sure about automating, but carving the duck sure seems like a good idea if you intend to eat....
EDIT: This is making me hungry.
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