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Post by M57 on May 26, 2019 4:45:33 GMT -6
If I'm only using 3 foot runs or XLR <--> 1/4" TRS, how much difference is there between a $40 mogami cable and a $12 Pro Co or similar? Can you hear the difference or is it more about things like flexibility and strain relief, etc? Does the length of the run matter when making a decision like this due to RFI? I mean, do I really have to worry about the quality of the shielding with a 3 foot balanced run?
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2019 8:23:55 GMT -6
This is one of those debates that could drag on for pages, create a flame war and give no real answer. My advice is borrow a couple of Good cables , and average cables and make your own decision. Look, I have been in great studios with Mogami or even more expensive stuff everywhere, well except for the 3 feet of solid core Belsen on every plug inside their ADC patchbays ! I have also been in situations where even some little 1 footers had to be Starquad Canare because of RFI, of course this was in the shadow of a Candelabra Antenna with all the local broadcasters on it. Look a decent ProCo with Real Neutrik or Switchcraft should be fine, now the lowend stuff with the fake connectors I would avoid avoid. Personally I suggest and use Mogami 3159 install AES EBU for pretty much all permanent runs using Nickel plated Neutrik and some nickel Switchcraft where the connectors just work better. DIY will save a ton on wiring, let you use a labeling method that is consistent, help develop soldering skills that will be a life savor at some point.
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Post by M57 on May 26, 2019 8:43:46 GMT -6
Thanks Eric. It is certainly not my intention to start a kerfuffle, but I knew there was that potential as I was composing the post, especially given that there are audiophiles in our midsts. I have some Mogami runs and honestly I don't think I hear a difference, but then I don't have the time or patience to do a controlled A/B type experiment. Of course, mine is a humble home studio but I don't seem to have any RF issues. Given that we know there will be opinions in conflict. I guess I have my answer, huh? Of course, I could be wishy-washy and go with something intermediate like the Mogami CorePlus - which starts with 5' runs
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Post by trakworxmastering on May 26, 2019 9:09:10 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2019 9:33:03 GMT -6
Pop the popcorn, get out the fire extinguishers It’s Ethan time!
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Post by swurveman on May 26, 2019 10:20:59 GMT -6
Here's my $.02. No great song, which is played by great musicians, is going to be held back from popularity by microphone cables.
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Post by jtc111 on May 26, 2019 10:50:18 GMT -6
Here's my $.02. No great song, which is played by great musicians, is going to be held back from popularity by microphone cables. Until your tracing down some noise and have to figure out which cable it is. That could hold it back by 30 minutes or so. I started out with a whole mess of ProCo cables. Enough of them went bad in the first five or six years that I started replacing them with Mogami/Neutrik cables from Redco. I've yet to have one of those go bad on me and some of them are a decade old by now. I don't know if there's a discernible difference in the sound as I've never tested for it, but there's a discernible difference in quality and I have better things to do with my time than track down bad cables.
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Post by swurveman on May 26, 2019 10:55:15 GMT -6
Here's my $.02. No great song, which is played by great musicians, is going to be held back from popularity by microphone cables. Until your tracing down some noise and have to figure out which cable it is. That could hold it back by 30 minutes or so. I started out with a whole mess of ProCo cables. Enough of them went bad in the first five or six years that I started replacing them with Mogami/Neutrik cables from Redco. I've yet to have one of those go bad on me and some of them are a decade old by now. I don't know if there's a discernible difference in the sound as I've never tested for it, but there's a discernible difference in quality and I have better things to do with my time than track down bad cables. To each his own. I bought few analog dsub xlr cables from redco and found them much more thin and fragile than the ones I bought from Lynx. That being said, we're talking about microphone cables for a singer songwriter. I doubt it would take 30 minutes to figure out the bad cable. I've bought Mogami's and pro co's and haven't ever had a 30 minute problem tracking down a cable gone bad, but I'm not dealing with 30 inputs at a time.
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Post by christopher on May 26, 2019 11:05:57 GMT -6
I need to start selling popcorn! $20 per bucket.. who wants butter? I've heard the difference in sound using the cheap pro co's/cheap connector vs mogami. It might be shielding or resistance issue or something? Theres a slightly less fast transient thing. Still use them constantly anyway. I used to believe strongly that null tests proved my ears wrong, but after a few years I always had the same sonic opinion. So now I think maybe the null tests aren't perfect: Again who knows where those faults might be, here's a thought I've had: might be time-based stuff where there's a 99% null and stuff that is too fast won't register as breaking the null on the meters. Does it matter? Not to me, I'm just happy to have any cable that works and one more mic or piece of gear to patch into. That said, yes 50%+ failure rate on ProCo pretty standard.
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Post by M57 on May 26, 2019 11:44:39 GMT -6
That being said, we're talking about microphone cables for a singer songwriter. Good point. I can deal with a bad cable easily enough, but longevity is part of the equation. Also, I don't use a patch-bay so they will get moved around maybe a half dozen times a year.
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Post by johneppstein on May 26, 2019 12:02:02 GMT -6
He's an idiot and a liar. I am proud to have one of his "asshole awards" posted on my refrigerator.
This is not to say that he lies about everything, only when it serves his purposes, which can range from commercial interest to outright insanity.
Just don't trust him. Uses more responsible references.
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Post by johneppstein on May 26, 2019 12:11:31 GMT -6
Until your tracing down some noise and have to figure out which cable it is. That could hold it back by 30 minutes or so. I started out with a whole mess of ProCo cables. Enough of them went bad in the first five or six years that I started replacing them with Mogami/Neutrik cables from Redco. I've yet to have one of those go bad on me and some of them are a decade old by now. I don't know if there's a discernible difference in the sound as I've never tested for it, but there's a discernible difference in quality and I have better things to do with my time than track down bad cables. To each his own. I bought few analog dsub xlr cables from redco and found them much more thin and fragile than the ones I bought from Lynx. That being said, we're talking about microphone cables for a singer songwriter. I doubt it would take 30 minutes to figure out the bad cable. I've bought Mogami's and pro co's and haven't ever had a 30 minute problem tracking down a cable gone bad, but I'm not dealing with 30 inputs at a time. I am, sometimes anyway, (32 input console) and I've still never had it take 30 minutes. 5 or 10, maybe, especially if I forgot where I put the Ebtech Swizz Army Knife cable tester, which tests everything except Speakon and BNC and incluses an intermittent test, which can be a lifesaver.
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Post by johneppstein on May 26, 2019 12:17:21 GMT -6
Good point. I can deal with a bad cable easily enough, but longevity is part of the equation. Also, I don't use a patch-bay so they will get moved around maybe a half dozen times a year. If you want longevity then build your own cables out of Belden 8402. MIL spec and virtually indestructible. For that reason it's something of a PITA to build cables out of, but nothing, and I mean nothing is as durable. 8412 is almost as good, but if you want your cables to survive being run over by a tank or a fully loaded rack of BGW 750 amplifiers, there's nothing like it.
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Post by Deleted on May 26, 2019 16:49:46 GMT -6
One of the best things I ever did about 15 years ago was buy a reel of Mogami balanced mic cable, and another reel of Mogami unbalanced/instrument cable, and a load of gold plated Neutrik jacks and XLR connectors. I've made 50 or more cables in that time and none of them has ever needed replacing. Sound good too!
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2019 17:11:13 GMT -6
Having pimped for what at the time was ProCo’s biggest dealer with my possible bias out there I want to address the “ cheap ProCo cable concept”, ProCo like many of the major cable builders has at least 4 different price points and qualities. You get what you pay for with cables as far as build and components so do bare that in mind.
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Post by drbill on May 26, 2019 17:39:54 GMT -6
I run Mogami everywhere. EVERY where. I know it's probably overkill. But it gives me peace of mind, and I'm never, ever second guessing. That's worth the difference in price alone. And I like working with it.
I have only ONE gripe.
Rats and Mice LOOOOOVE the insulation of the snake casings, and also the individual pairs. If you've got cable under the floor, or in the attic, or in conduit that exits to either, you have the opportunity for chew-age. Some locations I've kept mouse traps up and armed 24/7/365. Just because every once in a while, one of those buggers sneaks in. And for some reason, they sniff it out and go for it.
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Post by ragan on May 26, 2019 17:47:49 GMT -6
I've never seen any really conclusive info but I'd love to know just how many different sources there really are for the copper wire that ends up in cables.
I'm wholeheartedly in favor of using quality connectors. I'm deeply skeptical of the various dogmas about cable sonics.
Edit: I’m certainly persuadable though and I don’t have any real specialized knowledge at this point other than listening tests and null tests. I’ll be in an extended lab series on systems and signals next year. Look forward to learning about this stuff for real.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on May 26, 2019 19:13:57 GMT -6
I've never seen any really conclusive info but I'd love to know just how many different sources there really are for the copper wire that ends up in cables. I'm wholeheartedly in favor of using quality connectors. I'm deeply skeptical of the various dogmas about cable sonics. Edit: I’m certainly persuadable though and I don’t have any real specialized knowledge at this point other than listening tests and null tests. I’ll be in an extended lab series on systems and signals next year. Look forward to learning about this stuff for real. A fair number around the world and most will formulate to spec. I learned a lot about the world of wire from my wife’s grandfather who was the Forman for one of the big cable makers during WWII and helped develop the manufacturing methods for some of the huge RG cables. I think he couldn’t believe somebody geeked out about making wire!
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