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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 27, 2014 10:55:08 GMT -6
createdigitalmusic.com/2014/02/avid-maker-pro-tools-now-losing-money-faster-delisted-nasdaq/Restructuring efforts at Avid maker Pro Tools are far from returning faith in the company by the stock market. Financial site The Street reports today on the state of the company’s stock. Most troubling, yesterday Avid received a letter from NASDAQ delisting the company from the stock exchange. As of today, trading of AVID was halted on NASDAQ. (This doesn’t mean you can’t still trade AVID stock; you have to do it via the Over-the-Counter market.) The really significant issues here are cash flow and earnings, and Avid’s ability to report on their situation – and losing NASDAQ trading will only exacerbate the problem. TheStreet Ratings Team cites the following earning numbers: Accelerated losses: -$7.55 million to -$17.39 million (year over year) Negative cash flow: -$1.38 million “net operating cash flow,” a stunning year-over-year 1167.44% drop. IMPORTANT CORRECTION: Without identifying them as such, it appears that The Street cited the most recent data from Avid – though that data is badly, badly out of date, as Avid Technology hasn’t filed quarterly results since third quarter 2012, a full year and a half ago. This means that the divestment of M-Audio, for instance, is not included in the analysis. While it is still troubling that that data is unavailable (and this is one factor among others that led to NASDAQ’s suspension), it means that this story very inaccurately described the picture. The reality is, we don’t know. A full retraction / update on Avid is awaiting official word from the company, who have not yet responded to requests for comment (though we expect they may soon). -Ed. Why Avid (AVID) Is Falling Today [Shawn Ingram, The Street] The Street cites worries about the company’s earnings health, its stock performance, and the missing filings that led to delisting. Ed.: statement clarified on 27 Feb. There will certainly be implications for Pro Tools, Sibelius, and other Avid products if Avid’s business does not turn around. These are about more than just the technical quality of the products themselves. Maintaining a successful relationship with customers is dependent on running a successful business, and being able to make the investments in support and development that requires. Earnings represent in part the health of that relationship and the growth of the customer base. This is sometimes easier said than done, which is why many, many music product makers are not publicly-traded companies. But, to state the obvious, Avid can only be successful offering the products it makes if it has a successful business behind them. Pro Tools, the product, is in many ways healthy. Plug-in makers have successfully supported the AAX plug-in format, the product is still widely used, winning Grammy awards for its users and technical awards for itself. And the music products industry itself continues to grow; one thing The Street observes is that the loss in earnings at Avid is out of pace with the rest of the electronic products business, and the same could be said in regards to some of Avid’s direct rivals in music. For that reason, I would expect Pro Tools to have a future, perhaps as an acquisition. But some sort of business change seems coming at Avid the company. For loyal Pro Tools users, that change might be welcome sooner than later. Correction: An earlier version of this story incorrectly implied that research from The Street included 2013 earnings. As that data has not been reported, however, the data appears based on the last earnings filing, which is now a year and a half old. Also on CDM:
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Post by matt on Feb 27, 2014 11:07:43 GMT -6
Avid will be acquired, or be re-organized, if the financial leaking isn't stopped. I don't think we PT users have much to be worried about. However, I could see reduced support of their hardware products, including DSP/HD. But new ownership could actually invigorate the company. Interesting times we have - the product is better than ever, but the company ails from poor management of the books. Not the best situation. |
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 27, 2014 12:01:02 GMT -6
My tears couldn't fill a thimble. I feel sympathy towards those that bought their software - especially the video guys, as Avid Composer is a total crock, but quite a few people had been warning the media community off drinking the proverbial kool aid.
It's an okay product. Anything else could replace it - and they will.
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Post by svart on Feb 27, 2014 12:06:06 GMT -6
As someone who worked for a company which got delisted/pinksheeted, it's absolutely detrimental to the company as a whole. Good employees will leave in droves, while forcing the lesser employees to take on multiple roles, further straining any R/D they might have left.
You can expect layoffs to happen to make the "books look good" for potential suitors, while generally scaling back products and features to a level just above full stop.
It ain't gonna be pretty because the private investors will be circling like vultures to buy up a company and sell off the assets for quick cash.
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Post by svart on Feb 27, 2014 12:13:19 GMT -6
My tears couldn't fill a thimble. I feel sympathy towards those that bought their software - especially the video guys, as Avid Composer is a total crock, but quite a few people had been warning the media community off drinking the proverbial kool aid. It's an okay product. Anything else could replace it - and they will. Man, I couldn't agree more. After years of watching droves of kids pile into for-profit "schools" like Full Sail after being promised lucrative careers in music, I saw that Apple and Avid teamed up to strong arm these types of places into only teaching their products to the kids. It's not uncommon for them to sell/rent the macs, interfaces and software at below cost, just to get it in the classrooms, and then have fine print clauses where the schools can't teach anything else like Cub-endo/Reaper, etc on windows machines or risk litigation and removal of the Mac/Protools setups, leaving them on the hook for all expenses. It's criminal. Now we have droves of "graduates" which have flooded the market which believe macs and protools are the ONLY game in town. Everyone who walks into my studio asks the same question.. "That looks different, what version of Protools IS that?" It's Reaper, on a 10 year old PC, running as much as 48 audio tracks without a sweat. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 27, 2014 13:34:27 GMT -6
They had one shot. They failed. Had they announce with version 11...had they dropped MIDI...announced new killer hardware...some DSD workstation...something...converters that emulate tape (switchable)....something that actually caters to professional studio environments...but they didn't. They are shooting for Slate, UA, Apple, and Yamaha's market of native home studios.
They will lose. They're a decade behind them. I wanted to buy....I rally did...I waited for their HDX and 11 announcements--since they've ALREADY been reorg'd...I thought "maybe the adults are back in charge"....nope. They're doing what successful companies do, too often--selling things at huge profits based on a past of ACTUAL great leading edge products.
It should be said, that I find all personal computer rigs to be a PIA...and a kind of workable jury rig of a recording system. Hardware will ALWAYS outperform software by MILES--when it's released. But, you can't milk the same hardware solution for 15 years...and then release an in many ways inferior product to replace it...and expect loyalty. I waited to make my decision for the HDX announcement/specs. I hung my head. Why? Because TDM actually was BETTER...when released. by a LOT...arguably, it's still better in some capabilities, but like all hardware designs, it's in need of a refresh. I moved from another hardware platform--I'd have GLADLY forked over the money for a modern one...but, they don't offer one...no one does...it's ALL native consumer OS computers now. So be it--I'll pick the best/most mature of those...tested...found...no business for Avid.
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Post by jeromemason on Feb 27, 2014 13:54:25 GMT -6
When they made it so that people couldn't use older plugins in PT 11 and then they started not supporting older hardware for PT 11 that could've been their nail in the coffin.
They better get busy finding a free way for people to use their old plugins, and get off their ass and provide support to people that spent 10's of thousands on their hardware that they are saying they won't support. This pissed a lot of people off, including myself.
If Avid wants to fix this, they need to create a temporary way for Rtas and 32bitAAx to work in PT11. Then they need to step up and provide support for all their products, older and new. Ditch the artist series crap and start making some gear that actually fells and functions like real gear. They relied on the plug devs to take care of all of this, and the ones people are using the most pretty much said screw you, we'll do it when we want. It's killing Avid.
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 27, 2014 15:06:54 GMT -6
My tears couldn't fill a thimble. I feel sympathy towards those that bought their software - especially the video guys, as Avid Composer is a total crock, but quite a few people had been warning the media community off drinking the proverbial kool aid. It's an okay product. Anything else could replace it - and they will. Man, I couldn't agree more. After years of watching droves of kids pile into for-profit "schools" like Full Sail after being promised lucrative careers in music, I saw that Apple and Avid teamed up to strong arm these types of places into only teaching their products to the kids. It's not uncommon for them to sell/rent the macs, interfaces and software at below cost, just to get it in the classrooms, and then have fine print clauses where the schools can't teach anything else like Cub-endo/Reaper, etc on windows machines or risk litigation and removal of the Mac/Protools setups, leaving them on the hook for all expenses. It's criminal. Now we have droves of "graduates" which have flooded the market which believe macs and protools are the ONLY game in town. Everyone who walks into my studio asks the same question.. "That looks different, what version of Protools IS that?" It's Reaper, on a 10 year old PC, running as much as 48 audio tracks without a sweat. I know they're spouting up here, and the few of I know are spoken well of, but I'm glad I didn't go down the private school road. Not that my Music Tech degree got me any jobs, but it did mean they had to teach me enough technical skills to actually award a diploma. Sadly a lot of my class would of the mind above. Complaining they can't afford to get the kit together to run a proper facility - but refusing to use what's within their budget. And a well priced interface with reaper and a couple of moderately priced mics is clearly the way to go from a fiscal perspective. Of course I still get looks when I say Reaper. But once they hear the work the skepticism stops. |
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Post by svart on Feb 27, 2014 15:23:48 GMT -6
Man, I couldn't agree more. After years of watching droves of kids pile into for-profit "schools" like Full Sail after being promised lucrative careers in music, I saw that Apple and Avid teamed up to strong arm these types of places into only teaching their products to the kids. It's not uncommon for them to sell/rent the macs, interfaces and software at below cost, just to get it in the classrooms, and then have fine print clauses where the schools can't teach anything else like Cub-endo/Reaper, etc on windows machines or risk litigation and removal of the Mac/Protools setups, leaving them on the hook for all expenses. It's criminal. Now we have droves of "graduates" which have flooded the market which believe macs and protools are the ONLY game in town. Everyone who walks into my studio asks the same question.. "That looks different, what version of Protools IS that?" It's Reaper, on a 10 year old PC, running as much as 48 audio tracks without a sweat. I know they're spouting up here, and the few of I know are spoken well of, but I'm glad I didn't go down the private school road. Not that my Music Tech degree got me any jobs, but it did mean they had to teach me enough technical skills to actually award a diploma. Sadly a lot of my class would of the mind above. Complaining they can't afford to get the kit together to run a proper facility - but refusing to use what's within their budget. And a well priced interface with reaper and a couple of moderately priced mics is clearly the way to go from a fiscal perspective. Of course I still get looks when I say Reaper. But once they hear the work the skepticism stops. Same here. I'm not necessarily knocking the kids going to school. I mean yeah, it's like 20-40K a YEAR and there is only personal loans since it's all private, so these kids come out of there with 60-80K in debt.. And very little job prospects.. But what I am knocking is the tactics of Apple and Avid to try to stifle any other learning but their products. I understand that the school has a big hand in this too, but damn. I won't use their products on principle alone after hearing this. Besides, yes, there are plenty of choices that work just as well as macs and protools, at more reasonable prices. they've been coasting for years on their early marketshare and brand name. |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 27, 2014 15:47:39 GMT -6
Luckily for me, I found a good job doing IT work while in college and learned useful skills. Without a combination of the IT skills and my degree, was able to land a decent job in IT. Otherwise, my huge debt from my music degree would have basically ruined my life.
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Post by jazznoise on Feb 27, 2014 16:35:59 GMT -6
In Ireland the prices have gone to €5000 a year (About 7000 of your native Burgerbucks), but I availed of a grant that meant I went for free + a small stipend for travelling costs etc. svart I hear you on the proprietary crap. Total nonsense and hype and I'll be glad to see it dead. Everything from Gearslutz to Pensado's Place to Sound On Sound just feels like a pontificating platform for how to tell people how to make music professionally. Relying on an artists insecurity in their own creations, I think, is a particularly low move. Totally off topic but I met a programmer from M-Audio once when I was working in a shop - started talking shop when he saw I'd brought the Everman Master Handbook of Acoustics to work (what a bike ride!). Nice guy - I thought his kids how to shoot bows and arrows. Don't think he liked that... |
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Post by popmann on Feb 27, 2014 16:39:58 GMT -6
I grew up down the road from Full Sail. Working in a commercial studio and helping their foolish students pass signal flow 101. I bet they don't even bother TEACHING that anymore. Too busy with "game design"...any "career" where less than talented people feel like they can educate themselves into a job, they're there. I'm waiting for their "be a porn star BA".
I met Ms Pop when SHE was going there...I....I paid off her loans decades later. They are the worst part of humanity. The people who use people's hopes and dreams to sell them snake oil. Our GOVERNMENT should cut them off. I would move back to Florida just to CAST that vote. Not only taking advantage of parents....and kids with dreams...but, our tax dollars. And anyone who knows me--knows I'm a leftist liberal pretty across the issue board...but, PART of being a believer in tax help for many things--is being a good steward and kicking charlatans to the curb. Full Sail would go under in a year. They'd simply close shop and move on....if we cut off the welfare tit they suck on. How? You can't get government backed students loans to go there....and.or--you can't get government loans in COMBINATION with private to go anywhere. That's how they get you--they suck the government tit for all they can and THEN arrange private loans to make up the difference. If their placement department were half as effective as their financial aid is....they might be worth not ass fucking with a straight razor and salt. Maybe that's the law--you simply can't have multiple student loans for the same tuition period....something like that...anyway...
But....shit how did we get on that? I don't have anything against Avid--they've simply made some decidedly unprofessional choices. So be it. They go away. They're not adding anything to the party now and haven't for years, IMO. You can coast for a good while on past accomplishments--but, spend too long milking it....someone will dethrone you. It's the nature of business.
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Post by matt on Feb 27, 2014 17:29:54 GMT -6
As a Pro Tools user, I find the sometimes venomous attitude toward Avid curious and interesting. How does it benefit anyone in the music industry if Avid fails? Does it bring down prices (on other than on Avid's would-be defunct software and hardware)? Increase competition? Increase the quality and features of other music production software? Add jobs to the economy? If Avid fails, who's next? Steinberg? UA? I am not a Cubase user, but I do not wish the demise of Steinberg, or any other company.
I understand that a lot of people feel burned by the introduction of AAX and the retirement of old Avid/Digi hardware. It is frustrating to not be able to use certain beloved plugs and hardware. I have felt this way myself. Whether the situation results in hate of Avid is up to the individual but IMHO it is pointless to wish ill of Avid in the future because of their past. But to each, their own.
I am not an expert on this, but I have read that RTAS/TDM and HD Accel are technically outdated. In order to move on, something had to give, so Avid says. I will leave it to others who may wish to discuss whether this is true or not. My personal experience is that PT11 and AAX offer SIGNIFICANT performance improvements over PT10 and prior. It may indeed be a case of "it's about time" due to mismanagement by Avid, but there it is. What's done is done. I for one hope that Avid recovers or is bought out by people who want to build the product line into ever better iterations of software and hardware. The more, the merrier, I say. Hell, I am just becoming fluent on PT, and I really don't want to learn anything else unless forced into it by circumstance. But I will if I have to.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2014 17:41:16 GMT -6
I think the whole industry standard nonsense can die already like a few others have expressed. Obviously there's something to Avid's business practices that infuriates their own users cause you never hear that many people say that kind of stuff about reaper, logic, Cubase, Studio one etc.
It is too bad though, I'd hate to have bought all that stuff to have it unsupported.
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Post by matt on Feb 27, 2014 18:00:07 GMT -6
I agree with the whole music production school thing, it's anti-competitive bullshit when only one thing (PT) is taught. And abuse of the public scholarship system is reprehensible.
I knew someone who went to Full Sail. Last time I saw her, she was stripping. I'll leave it to each one of us to decide if that was a good outcome.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Feb 27, 2014 18:51:08 GMT -6
I agree with the whole music production school thing, it's anti-competitive bullshit when only one thing (PT) is taught. And abuse of the public scholarship system is reprehensible. I knew someone who went to Full Sail. Last time I saw her, she was stripping. I'll leave it to each one of us to decide if that was a good outcome. We can't decide workout pics.  |
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Post by matt on Feb 27, 2014 19:11:41 GMT -6
I knew someone who went to Full Sail. Last time I saw her, she was stripping. We can't decide workout pics. Sadly, I know longer see her, or know her whereabouts. She was 20 at the time, and indescribably sweet-hot. I have no pics of her. She used to follow my band, and sometimes helped with gear load-out after shows. Those were wild times, circa 1990. These days, never underestimate the value of a good cell phone camera, you never know what might turn out to be a good photo-op. I wish they existed back then. |
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Post by popmann on Feb 27, 2014 19:18:05 GMT -6
did she strip her way THROUGH Full Sail? If so...we might've known the same girl...that seems like about the right time. Only student I ever "got"--she wanted to play with the big toys...and walked away debt free as far as I know. She was still going there and stripping to pay for it when Ms Pop decided it was best I not "work with her".
See....for anyone who doesn't know you're not allowed to WORK while attending Full Sail...see they hold 1am classes and what not so they can squeeze in more students...they'd "call" a class with little notice. So, you couldn't hold a job. Unless you had a job where the bar manager let you show up and dance whenever you were free...leave whenever you had to for "class". She was truly brilliant....driven...and only a LITTLE psycho. Just enough.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Feb 27, 2014 19:18:41 GMT -6
I haven't read all the posts above yet, but Logic X works nicely for me, to hell with Pro Tools compatibiliy with studios. If a studio can't work with my Logic files, I don't need them.
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 9:39:02 GMT -6
When they made it so that people couldn't use older plugins in PT 11 and then they started not supporting older hardware for PT 11 that could've been their nail in the coffin. They better get busy finding a free way for people to use their old plugins, and get off their ass and provide support to people that spent 10's of thousands on their hardware that they are saying they won't support. This pissed a lot of people off, including myself. If Avid wants to fix this, they need to create a temporary way for Rtas and 32bitAAx to work in PT11. Then they need to step up and provide support for all their products, older and new. Ditch the artist series crap and start making some gear that actually fells and functions like real gear. They relied on the plug devs to take care of all of this, and the ones people are using the most pretty much said screw you, we'll do it when we want. It's killing Avid. I think they were kind of damned if they do...damned if they don't. I believe they had to totally re-write PT11...and RTAS is just old technology. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. |
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Post by Johnkenn on Feb 28, 2014 9:40:45 GMT -6
My God - I tried to build something in Logic X the other day and I was hopelessly lost...but - it's dealing with the same things, though...half my plugs don't work in it because it's 64 bit...
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Post by matt on Feb 28, 2014 9:49:59 GMT -6
did she strip her way THROUGH Full Sail? If so...we might've known the same girl I do not know what she did for a living after she moved to to FL to attend FS, but she worked at a few clubs in Phoenix for a couple of years prior. My mind is failing me, but I remember her name as "Holly", originally from Michigan's upper peninsula. A "U-per", using the slang local to the region. She was 5'6"-ish, 110lb or so, slender, dark hair, wore glasses. Very beautiful and had a sweet personality. It was a long time ago. I hope she is doing well. |
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Post by drbill on Feb 28, 2014 10:02:50 GMT -6
PT is working fine for me, no matter what stupid things AVID pulls out of their hat. I will upgrade when I find it necessary. It's not necessary yet. For me - (and many others - especially in the LA / Post market) - PT is just the best alternative for a wide variety of reasons - almost none of which are obvious to guys who only record 24-48 tracks of audio and maybe a couple of soft synth tracks to make "beats" or records. I've been on it since PT 2.x. I just don't get the hate. Feel free to use Reaper or Samplitude or whatever. No hate here - I'm happy you found something that works for you and fits the budget. Me?? I'm happily getting my work done with a hopelessly outdated PT9/HD3 rig all day long everyday - just like thousands of other satisfied PT users....
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Post by matt on Feb 28, 2014 10:48:05 GMT -6
They better get busy finding a free way for people to use their old plugins, and get off their ass and provide support to people that spent 10's of thousands on their hardware that they are saying they won't support. This pissed a lot of people off, including myself. If Avid wants to fix this, they need to create a temporary way for Rtas and 32bitAAx to work in PT11. Then they need to step up and provide support for all their products, older and new. Ditch the artist series crap I think they were kind of damned if they do...damned if they don't. I believe they had to totally re-write PT11...and RTAS is just old technology. But maybe I'm giving them too much credit. I understand that one of the fundamental issues is that HD Accel is coded in a 24-bit "fixed" non-floating point format. This math limit is also tied into the design of the hardware chipsets (56K Motorola), so updated 32-bit floating point code cannot be ported to this spec. Hence HDX, which operates on 32-bit float via chipsets from Texas Instruments. So, HD Accel is an outdated technology, pure and simple, that had a 10 year+ run. And AAX is fully 64-bit to leverage modern OSs like OSX and Win7/8. So I have read. Please, correct me if I have any of these facts wrong. I like to think of this technological evolution in terms of videocard technology: in 2003, when HD Accel was introduced, AGP was the standard port for PC GPUs. In the interest of increased performance, it was supplanted by the PCIe spec shortly thereafter. While it is still possible to use a vintage computer built in 2003 (and also all of its peripherals from the era, to have an honest comparison), whether it would make sense to do so is debatable. True, there is a whole lotta HD Accel hardware out there, and it has lost value, but the technology is still functional, and thousands (millions?) of A/V productions have been completed and released to the World using PT of the "HD Accel" era. Sure, Avid has screwed up management of the PT platform, and has a public relations problem, IMHO, but such is the nature of business. And it is a business at its core - small market, to boot. As an investor, I think Avid should never have gone public, and I hope they take the company private and rebuild their business model w/o having to answer to stockholders. |
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Post by levon on Feb 28, 2014 12:18:31 GMT -6
My God - I tried to build something in Logic X the other day and I was hopelessly lost...but - it's dealing with the same things, though...half my plugs don't work in it because it's 64 bit... John, I'm on Logic since Logic 5. I used Pro Tools before that, but once I found Logic, I was only too happy to switch. Most of my plugins became 64-bit over the last 2-3 years, many for free, some for an acceptable upgrade fee. I'm still on Logic 9, it runs absolutely stable and hassle-free, so I don't see the need to upgrade to X. For Logic X, I would get 32 Lives as a 32-bit bridge, apparently it works fine in Logic X. There are some plugs that will never be ported to 64-bit, but that's hardly Apple's fault. Some of those I love and I would use the bridge to keep using them in Logic X, if I ever upgrade. Been using the 32-bit bridge in Logic for years and don't understand the fuzz people make, it's absolutely no problem for me. The writing for Avid has been on the wall for some time. Sorry for those who ignored it and hailed Pro Tools 11 as the saviour - Pro Tools has always sucked and still does. I won't shed a tear. |
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