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Post by klauth on Mar 28, 2019 4:56:03 GMT -6
In regards to the buisness model of avid, as a user, are you resentful of the subscription based format they have chosen to use?
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 28, 2019 5:12:07 GMT -6
Ditched avid 3 years ago cus of this, after all the cumulative upgrades expenses already and then and now still buggy software: jumped to Logic.
One low price, 1/3rd of avid’s, free upgrades ever since, not perfect but I get things done.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2019 5:18:10 GMT -6
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Post by indiehouse on Mar 28, 2019 5:22:41 GMT -6
It’s been a long, strange trip.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 28, 2019 5:37:11 GMT -6
Sort of like Brylcream: a little tab will do ya ?  |
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Post by Ward on Mar 28, 2019 6:30:43 GMT -6
I'm stuck on Pro Tools 10. Everything works and there are enough plugz to do what I need done.
You know what I miss? Digidesign.
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Post by ericn on Mar 28, 2019 7:16:52 GMT -6
I'm stuck on Pro Tools 10. Everything works and there are enough plugz to do what I need done. You know what I miss? Digidesign. Yeah, but even then 30% of Digi’s business was Avid was alway in the drivers seat. Digi had already learned with Session 8 that the pro- sumer market was a support nightmare, but as a publicly traded company would have been forced to chase the market for market share and growth numbers. My wish has always been that we could go back to the “ Open PT “ days. Remember when you could run most of the major DAW’s on TDM? The lexiverb Card? Digi asked Apogee to build the AD8000? Mackie to develop HUI? I’m not sure if I’m as resentful as disappointed, with AVID, I know old AVIDs biggest fear was they would be scooped up by someone like Panasonic, Sony, Harmon or EV and the pressure’s of Wall Street. These days I’d love to see someone like Blackmagic scoop them up. 2 big things that might have made AVID / Digi different were first if APPLE hadn’t totally shit on them and Adobe, Steve Job’s should have understood and respected the fact that without them there would be no APPLE for him to come back to. Instead he went after there middle market where the growth was. The switches from NuBus, to PCI to PCIe and Power PC to Intel were painful and peeled off customers every time. AVID/ DIGI never listened to their dealers, they listened to consultants and stock anylists but not the dealers who actually talked to their customers. They have never understood that Audio and Video customers are different, or that people like and intergrate analog in their systems. |
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Post by Ward on Mar 28, 2019 7:38:49 GMT -6
I'm stuck on Pro Tools 10. Everything works and there are enough plugz to do what I need done. You know what I miss? Digidesign. Yeah, but even then 30% of Digi’s business was Avid was alway in the drivers seat. Digi had already learned with Session 8 that the pro- sumer market was a support nightmare, but as a publicly traded company would have been forced to chase the market for market share and growth numbers. My wish has always been that we could go back to the “ Open PT “ days. Remember when you could run most of the major DAW’s on TDM? The lexiverb Card? Digi asked Apogee to build the AD8000? Mackie to develop HUI? I’m not sure if I’m as resentful as disappointed, with AVID, I know old AVIDs biggest fear was they would be scooped up by someone like Panasonic, Sony, Harmon or EV and the pressure’s of Wall Street. These days I’d love to see someone like Blackmagic scoop them up. 2 big things that might have made AVID / Digi different were first if APPLE hadn’t totally shit on them and Adobe, Steve Job’s should have understood and respected the fact that without them there would be no APPLE for him to come back to. Instead he went after there middle market where the growth was. The switches from NuBus, to PCI to PCIe and Power PC to Intel were painful and peeled off customers every time. AVID/ DIGI never listened to their dealers, they listened to consultants and stock anylists but not the dealers who actually talked to their customers. They have never understood that Audio and Video customers are different, or that people like and intergrate analog in their systems. Yes, but NUBUS, ADS Bus, Power PC, SCSI etc were extremely limited tech anyhow. Even though they were momentarily ahead of the PC equivalents, in the end the future was clear . . . and Jobs had the right idea. |
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Post by jtc111 on Mar 28, 2019 8:03:19 GMT -6
In regards to the buisness model of avid, as a user, are you resentful of the subscription based format they have chosen to use? I resent them much less since they stopped tying us to their hardware. |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Mar 28, 2019 8:06:13 GMT -6
Yeah, but even then 30% of Digi’s business was Avid was alway in the drivers seat. Digi had already learned with Session 8 that the pro- sumer market was a support nightmare, but as a publicly traded company would have been forced to chase the market for market share and growth numbers. My wish has always been that we could go back to the “ Open PT “ days. Remember when you could run most of the major DAW’s on TDM? The lexiverb Card? Digi asked Apogee to build the AD8000? Mackie to develop HUI? I’m not sure if I’m as resentful as disappointed, with AVID, I know old AVIDs biggest fear was they would be scooped up by someone like Panasonic, Sony, Harmon or EV and the pressure’s of Wall Street. These days I’d love to see someone like Blackmagic scoop them up. 2 big things that might have made AVID / Digi different were first if APPLE hadn’t totally shit on them and Adobe, Steve Job’s should have understood and respected the fact that without them there would be no APPLE for him to come back to. Instead he went after there middle market where the growth was. The switches from NuBus, to PCI to PCIe and Power PC to Intel were painful and peeled off customers every time. AVID/ DIGI never listened to their dealers, they listened to consultants and stock anylists but not the dealers who actually talked to their customers. They have never understood that Audio and Video customers are different, or that people like and intergrate analog in their systems. Yes, but NUBUS, ADS Bus, Power PC, SCSI etc were extremely limited tech anyhow. Even though they were momentarily ahead of the PC equivalents, in the end the future was clear . . . and Jobs had the right idea. They were and that brings up Avid’s push towards PC windows, it was expensive, and probably set Software development at Avid back. AVID was smart enough to understand that for their highend Video and TDM systems to work on Windows they had to be Turnkey systems built and set up by professionals. Video embraced this, stability trumped cost and having the latest machine. Audio guys always wanted the latest and thought they or their buddies buddy knew more and were more intrenched in Apple. I’ll never forget the PT 3 system we sold to a future Oscar winner who’s buddy was an “Apple expert”, It wouldn’t do anything, he had the system drive and the audio drive in the machine running off the wrong Attorney card and bent a bunch of pins on both drives. Since he one his Oscar for the film he need that system in 3 days for I always felt my name should be on that statue for simply being able to read. As far as Jobs and AVID, well remember this all the films Apple bragged about being done Completely in Final Cut Pro before Digital vine cameras have an Avid logo at the end of the credits because they were at the very least transferred on an Avid system. Apple has truest understood the profession customer since the 9600 and there pro app development has been completely hit and miss as well as speradict at best. |
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Post by mikec on Mar 28, 2019 8:49:06 GMT -6
I still like and use the latest Pro Tools 2018 native, but not sure if I will drop the $99 this year to renew my support. There are so many good DAWS out now. I just updated my Studio One to the latest version 4 for $85 and have been using that on a new project lately and I'm not sure if I will go back to Pro Tools other than if I need to for compatibility with another project. Studio One just seems so easy and intuitive to use from their pipeline plugin for hardware inserts where you can route any send to any return to setting up cue mixes and the drag and drop features. I also find that I can run my buffers much lower in Studio One than Pro Tools. I seem to get the same performance running my buffer at 32 with Studio One as I do at 128 with Pro Tools.
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 28, 2019 8:52:42 GMT -6
SO is supposed to be very efficient, the lower buffer setting is interesting !
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Post by drbill on Mar 28, 2019 9:44:46 GMT -6
Nah.... They're a PITA, but I just deal with it. Not worth changing over to have different problems.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 28, 2019 9:46:45 GMT -6
I still like and use the latest Pro Tools 2018 native, but not sure if I will drop the $99 this year to renew my support. There are so many good DAWS out now. I just updated my Studio One to the latest version 4 for $85 and have been using that on a new project lately and I'm not sure if I will go back to Pro Tools other than if I need to for compatibility with another project. Studio One just seems so easy and intuitive to use from their pipeline plugin for hardware inserts where you can route any send to any return to setting up cue mixes and the drag and drop features. I also find that I can run my buffers much lower in Studio One than Pro Tools. I seem to get the same performance running my buffer at 32 with Studio One as I do at 128 with Pro Tools. I can run my buffer lower on ANY daw than PT. I use reaper and s1 mainly and sometimes Harrison Mixbus. It's really frustrating with PT. I get lots of errors that are recorded if I move down to 64 or 32 samples @ 44.1k on my Mac and PC. Their optimization guide for PC isn't great either. Once you neuter an intel processor in bios the whole computer runs quarter speed. So basically I have a 600 dollar daw I can't reliably track with on a Thunderbolt interface. Sadly it smokes my other daws in terms of editing and mixing. So I do resent them a bit I suppose, but mostly for making a great DAW that I can't use for tracking so easily. If it was all garbage we wouldn't even be having this conversation. EDIT: and yes, it is just sad that you can't route plugin ins and outs as you wish like every other DAW can. Such a time saver. |
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Post by dankin on Mar 28, 2019 10:18:12 GMT -6
I'm in no way a fan of Avid. My main issue is, I prefer PT workflow and have zero desire to relearn a DAW at this stage. I suspect there are a lot of people in that boat. I make my living with it, and have for over a decade now. Logic is the one I know best next to PT, as I've been using it since V4, but for the past 10 years or so, I've only used it for midi/VI stuff. I always move back to PT once I'm done with that stuff. My biggest issue with Avid, is not the subscription/support model per say, but what they are actually giving us for that in return. I'm on HD/Ultimate, so $400 a year. I did 2 years of it...so basically for $800, I got freeze and commit, which I love and use daily. But I also got a crap ton of bugs...some versions have been total crash/error fest. I've been on 2018.3 for a while now as thats where I got off the train. Well, I think I have 2018.4, but it was too buggy so I went back to 2018.3. It is for the most part stable, but there are a couple bugs related to session import in this version that I have to stay on top off, and some occasional graphic bugs. I didn't renew last year, and from what Ive seen on the DUC and with other friends who are current, I haven't really missed anything to speak of except even more bugs. If 2019.whatever is a substantial upgrade (I have my doubts) especially related to performance at low buffers, and Vi performance, I may upgrade one more time. Thats a big IF though. My main issue that I will face pretty soon, is upgrading to a newer mac and dealing with Mojave.
I will say this though, I've spent way to much money over the years with DAW's and upgrades and plugins. In the end the only thing that has made my work better, is more experience and better monitoring/acoustics. If I could open up PT 7 or 8 with the exact same plugins I had then, I would make them sound much better now, just because I'm more experienced now. It will be the same next year and the year after and so on.
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 28, 2019 11:01:35 GMT -6
Studio one has some good features, but in my opinion, poor support. I use it mainly for melodyne tuning because of instant transfer with ARA, but the more I use it the more ridiculous I think some of it's features are. So it's just not ready for me to make my bread on.
I had a serious problem with using their own faderport where any touching of the fader while armed would ruin future points.
They simply told me they couldn't recreate it on their end and that was it. No help.
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Post by dankin on Mar 28, 2019 11:20:13 GMT -6
I bought studio one V2, and I've demoed 3 and 4, it's not for me. I use it once or twice a year to create a DDP for some long standing clients that have me master their project after mixing. That's the only reason its installed. Everything else I work on goes to a proper mastering engineer. If I left PT, it would be for Cubase. I could never fully leave PT though, because of the years of sessions I have in it, and so much of my work comes in as a PT session anyway. Also, I love that I can set down at any PT rig in the world and not have to wonder where they mapped the record button too. I would love to see ARA in PT.
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Post by drbill on Mar 28, 2019 11:55:09 GMT -6
I still like and use the latest Pro Tools 2018 native, but not sure if I will drop the $99 this year to renew my support. There are so many good DAWS out now. I just updated my Studio One to the latest version 4 for $85 and have been using that on a new project lately and I'm not sure if I will go back to Pro Tools other than if I need to for compatibility with another project. Studio One just seems so easy and intuitive to use from their pipeline plugin for hardware inserts where you can route any send to any return to setting up cue mixes and the drag and drop features. I also find that I can run my buffers much lower in Studio One than Pro Tools. I seem to get the same performance running my buffer at 32 with Studio One as I do at 128 with Pro Tools. I can run my buffer lower on ANY daw than PT. I use reaper and s1 mainly and sometimes Harrison Mixbus. It's really frustrating with PT. I get lots of errors that are recorded if I move down to 64 or 32 samples @ 44.1k on my Mac and PC. Their optimization guide for PC isn't great either. Once you neuter an intel processor in bios the whole computer runs quarter speed. So basically I have a 600 dollar daw I can't reliably track with on a Thunderbolt interface. Sadly it smokes my other daws in terms of editing and mixing. So I do resent them a bit I suppose, but mostly for making a great DAW that I can't use for tracking so easily. If it was all garbage we wouldn't even be having this conversation. EDIT: and yes, it is just sad that you can't route plugin ins and outs as you wish like every other DAW can. Such a time saver. They make arguably the BEST tracking DAW on the planet - HDX. That is of course why they want you to upgrade, and of course why the performance of the native systems can't reach the power of HDX for tracking. |
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 28, 2019 12:34:59 GMT -6
I can run my buffer lower on ANY daw than PT. I use reaper and s1 mainly and sometimes Harrison Mixbus. It's really frustrating with PT. I get lots of errors that are recorded if I move down to 64 or 32 samples @ 44.1k on my Mac and PC. Their optimization guide for PC isn't great either. Once you neuter an intel processor in bios the whole computer runs quarter speed. So basically I have a 600 dollar daw I can't reliably track with on a Thunderbolt interface. Sadly it smokes my other daws in terms of editing and mixing. So I do resent them a bit I suppose, but mostly for making a great DAW that I can't use for tracking so easily. If it was all garbage we wouldn't even be having this conversation. EDIT: and yes, it is just sad that you can't route plugin ins and outs as you wish like every other DAW can. Such a time saver. They make arguably the BEST tracking DAW on the planet - HDX. That is of course why they want you to upgrade, and of course why the performance of the native systems can't reach the power of HDX for tracking. Right. I should have been more clear that I was speaking of Native PT against other Native DAWs. HDX is great, but then we are talking apples to oranges.
When Avid decided to make a Native version of PT, they instantly entered the arena of other Native DAWs, which opened the door to those criticisms.
HDX is another story altogether - a far, far more expensive one.
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Post by ragan on Mar 28, 2019 12:41:31 GMT -6
Well said.
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Post by aremos on Mar 28, 2019 12:57:32 GMT -6
Still doing everything on 10 HD w/ TDM, RTAS & AAX. But will soon, hopefully, start mixing on 12 (2018) Native. When going from 7 to Ultimate it cost me $1K for simultaneously getting HD 10, 11, 12 & 2018.
And look at it as having spent $100/year.
So after a year, only the "new bundle plug-ins" will expire (& the "support") but I'll hold on to everything else as long as I can, again.
What bothers me is their tech support personnel, & their limited knowledge, in the Phillippines.
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Post by mikec on Mar 28, 2019 13:02:00 GMT -6
Since I use Pro Tools Native with a Symphony MKII and I prefer mixing with Pro Tools, I may just adapt to tracking with Studio One 4 and mixing with Pro Tools. It is really nice to be able to track natively at a 32 buffer with Studio One. I was tracking vocals today with reverb on a send and at 32 buffer my CPU was just hitting 20%. In my Pro Tools set up I would need to have a buffer of at least 128 or 256 to have that level of cpu hit with the cue mix I had going. If I was starting all over I might think of going Dr. Bill's route only on a much smaller scale. |
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Post by brenta on Mar 28, 2019 13:32:40 GMT -6
I don’t think they’re offering much value with the subscription model. It makes them more money but what does it do for me? I don’t need support, unless by support they mean a software program that doesn’t chronically crash, which the subscription model doesn’t really help that much.
I bought the v12 perpetual license a few years ago and it came with 12 months of support. It had a bug causing crashes. 11 months into my 12 months of support they finally fixed the bug. That’s unacceptable for it to take that long. I don’t see any compelling features that make me want to upgrade to the new version, which probably has new bugs.
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Post by drbill on Mar 28, 2019 13:37:21 GMT -6
They make arguably the BEST tracking DAW on the planet - HDX. That is of course why they want you to upgrade, and of course why the performance of the native systems can't reach the power of HDX for tracking. Right. I should have been more clear that I was speaking of Native PT against other Native DAWs. HDX is great, but then we are talking apples to oranges.
When Avid decided to make a Native version of PT, they instantly entered the arena of other Native DAWs, which opened the door to those criticisms.
HDX is another story altogether - a far, far more expensive one.
I disagree. A DAW is a DAW is a DAW. Some are cheap, some are free, some are simple, some are complex, some run with hardware, some run off the computers power. Choose the one that suits you the best. If what suits you best costs more, then so be it - buy it. If you want an inexpensive solution, buy Reaper or another DAW and tell AVID to **** off. Some people are fine with a SM7, while others have NO PROBLEM popping for a 251. They both do essentially the same thing. Different strokes.... Doesn't make one evil and the other good just because of the price. if people are willing to spend up and over $10k for a single microphone, a DAW which is arguably the backbone of any studio for an additional $2.5-3k doesn't really seem like that big of an investment. Honestly, it seems a bit like sour grapes to me. HDX is a powerhouse that rocks my personal DAW world. YMMV, etc... BTW, IMO, their subscription plan is approx. double what it should cost, and I just generally opt out, go perpetual, then re-buy a new license a couple of years down the line when I feel like I want to upgrade to whatever features they have added. If they haven't added anything I value, then they don't get me buying a new license. Sucks, but it is what it is, and for PRO TOOLS HDX, I'm willing to spend it. It generally costs me less to do that than to stay on their subscription train... If I had to deal with AVID and their second class systems that they pawn off on the low end, I'd probably be griping right along with everyone else. For me though, it seemed so simple to just buy a HDX card and kiss all the problematic issues goodbye... |
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Post by Mister Chase on Mar 28, 2019 13:55:11 GMT -6
Right. I should have been more clear that I was speaking of Native PT against other Native DAWs. HDX is great, but then we are talking apples to oranges.
When Avid decided to make a Native version of PT, they instantly entered the arena of other Native DAWs, which opened the door to those criticisms.
HDX is another story altogether - a far, far more expensive one.
Some people are fine with a SM7, while others have NO PROBLEM popping for a 251. They both do essentially the same thing. Different strokes.... Doesn't make one evil and the other good just because of the price. if people are willing to spend up and over $10k for a single microphone, a DAW which is arguably the backbone of any studio for an additional $2.5-3k doesn't really seem like that big of an investment.That is certainly your right, but I think your analogy is incorrect.
Also, I don't think evil enters into it at all. They are allowed to price things the way they want to, and that is fine. FWIW, HDX isn't outlandishly priced. Just much higher than Native.
Again, an SM7 and a 251 are apples to oranges. Furthermore, DAWs to microphones are apples to oranges.
Daw's are more directly function based. Their usefulness and performance can be measured more objectively than a microphone.
Again, AVID released a Native DAW, it can be compared to other Native DAWs. You are proving my point. I am choosing what suits me best my comparing similarly marketed and similarly functioning daws. In some cases, the more expensive option(PT) falls short of other Native DAWs. That was all I was pointing out. If you love HDX, great. Again, I was talking about Native PT as a product compared to other Native DAWs in that microcosm is all.
If I made HDX money from studio work, I might even consider it, though I wouldn't be able to use my interface with other DAWs at that point so I would have to be PT only. In my arena, I have to look at sessions from people in Logic, Reaper, S1, Cubase etc. I have to be able to function there, too.
So, that bumps me down into the Native arena of DAWs. This is where the comparisons come in. Features and function in practice. I have my criticisms of them all, as you can see. PT Native is not free from that, as they shouldn't be.
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