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Post by Johnkenn on Mar 19, 2019 20:05:26 GMT -6
Try going line in on a pair of pres you have.
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Post by ragan on Mar 19, 2019 20:25:14 GMT -6
MJB - was it a with/without Convert AD+ you heard?
I’d make dang sure the variable I was responding so positively to is actually the Convert AD+ before spending a dime chasing it.
Maybe you just liked Jerome’s mix?
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,026
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Post by ericn on Mar 19, 2019 20:30:22 GMT -6
The hard part isn’t getting the color it’s finding the color you want.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 19, 2019 20:53:46 GMT -6
Thanks 000.
John, I'll have to give that a try one of these days. I'm not going to be mixing anything for a while though, I'm just busy supporting my album.
Ragan, I'm not exactly sure, it's been a while since Jerome's original post. I believe he posted a "with and without" the Convert AD +, but I'm not certain.
Maybe Jerome can clarify.
* I'm still not entirely clear about how the Convert AD + works. Do you use it as your A-D when tracking and then later when mixing, or just when running the final mix? I've seen a Fab Dupont video where he runs a completed mix to a Dangerous summing mixer > the Convert AD+ > Bax EQ+ > Dangerous Compressor > Convert AD+
So, if I had a finished mix and send it to the Convert AD+ , I then take the Convert A-D back into the DAW and record it?
I would go from my Apollo > Convert AD + and then back into my Apollo to my DAW on a new stereo track?
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Post by kcatthedog on Mar 19, 2019 21:07:12 GMT -6
It was with, cus the song he posted was a mix of mine with and without passing through his convert ad+.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 19, 2019 21:14:40 GMT -6
Thanks Kcat, I thought it might have been your track. So, is my signal path and thinking in my post above correct?
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Post by jeromemason on Mar 19, 2019 21:26:17 GMT -6
It was with, cus the song he posted was a mix of mine with and without passing through his convert ad+. Yeah that was what I remembered. The Convert AD+ is really designed for mixing/mastering. I'm sure it'd sound absolutely killer on a stereo acoustic recording.... but it's magic is on the mix buss. And you're right, it opens the mix up while bolstering the center image like a console, which is why I bought it after hearing it on one mix. That's the dragon I'm alway after, how can I make my mixes sound like they came off an SSL E console, but doing it hybrid. One way was building my hybrid SSL comp, putting those Lundahl transformers in it was just one part of it, I actually put them in so it was a 2:1 config, the DIYRE pultecs and the Satori summing amp LOVED mating with that impedance. I had a Dangerous Compressor in here not long ago, did a mix on it and sent it to the producer I work for, then ran that same mix through my SSL hybrid and his words were "ditch whatever you had on the first one, don't take that SSL compressor off your buss again!" It's a lot of little factors and each time I add something to my mix buss it means it's edging me closer to that SSL E console sound, but quite honestly, I don't know if I can go any further. After I put the Dangerous AD+ in I felt so much like I did in my years behind that 6000E that I finally believe I'm there. And I've tried putting other things, VERY expensive things in substitute of what I have now and they just didn't work, didn't have that same width, depth, punch and the solid center image of the bass and vocals. The bass coming off my mixbuss sounds exactly like what the bass sounded like coming off the mixbuss of my old SSL 6000E. That was one thing I could pick out and remember extremely quickly, just has a sound. The vocal too, those consoles just had a sound, when you had the mix right the bass and vocals came off it's mixbuss in a certain way, and you also had to be hitting it just right too. So, that means I've not only got my mixbuss set up with the right gear, it means I'm hitting it just right. If anyone is wondering, it took me 5 years to get that feeling and no telling how many different combinations of gear on that mixbuss. The Convert AD+, I'll be grateful to that converter for as long as I'm doing this work because it was the final missing piece. Hope you figure it out, they might be expensive, but they're worth every penny. Jerome
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 19, 2019 21:49:41 GMT -6
Thanks so much Jerome. That's exactly what I have in mind. I've used vintage API's, Trident Series 80, and many other boards when making my records. I've tried a restored vintage Neve briefly, and did quite a few things on the SSL9000. Much as people say they love their API or Neve for tracking, I love the SSL tracks I've heard.
I was at some mixing sessions of Neo, James Blunt and Brad Paisley where they had tracked a bunch of songs live into the SSL, and then did a final mix later. It sounded huge, 3 D and had so much weight I nearly fell out of my chair. So yeah, anything in the SSL zone appeals to me. I haven't used any of the Abbey Road gear though, but I think I like all the Chandler gear's sound as well.
When I get anywhere near being ready to upgrade my system, I'll give you a shout. I'll need some good advice.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 20, 2019 5:03:56 GMT -6
I've had a pair of Western Electric 111C's on the output for years now. They add a small bit of Back In Black. There are a lot of other 600:600 transformer pairs around here, all with different tone. The biggest things would be max level and nickel content %, which both affect distortion profile. Pure steel handles the most level and has the lowest distortion near that high level, but has high distortion at low level relative to nickel content types and can sound nastiest in quiet sections. Nickel content stays cleanest on lowest level. Pretty easy to start collecting transformer pairs and wiring them up. Most 600:600 types need nothing other than pigtailed connectors. You can play with load resistors, but they make the least difference with (most) 600:600's.
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Post by guitfiddler on Mar 20, 2019 5:34:17 GMT -6
Shadow Hills Mono Gama is another preamp, however you can select between nickel and steel Tranformers. That would be interesting...just a thought. So many different transformers, so little time.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 20, 2019 8:49:49 GMT -6
Guitfiddler sent me a link to this video. It has Rupert Neve 542 tape emulators and a Wes Audio Dione compressor. It sounds very good and is much like what I'm looking for. Still, at around $2,400 for that kit, (plus a lunchbox), I might as well get the Convert 2+ when I can afford it since I know it does what I liked. I would also have to try hat alone too since Jerome Mason's track had some other gear in the signal path.
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Post by notneeson on Mar 20, 2019 9:11:21 GMT -6
Quite happy going line in to my TNC ACMP 73s on the mix bus. (I know, right?)
Compared them to our Phoenix DRS 2 and, at least for this application the TNC was as good if not a tiny bit "weightier" than the Phoenix (which has no line or mic input iron). Also gives me the chance to add a smidge of top and sub after the compressor.
That said, I'd say the Phoenix beats the TNC as a Mic pre. I was talking to BradM about this and one thing I've read that seems to track is that it's easier to make a good sounding line level transformer, like the Edcor for example.
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Post by the other mark williams on Mar 20, 2019 9:31:38 GMT -6
Martin John Butler, it’s worth hearing a Zulu in person if you can. It’s much more affordable than some of the pieces that have been mentioned, and it’s fantastic. (IMO)
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 20, 2019 10:09:49 GMT -6
Guitfiddler sent me a link to this video. It has Rupert Neve 542 tape emulators and a Wes Audio Dione compressor. It sounds very good and is much like what I'm looking for. Still, at around $2,400 for that kit, (plus a lunchbox), I might as well get the Convert 2+ when I can afford it since I know it does what I liked. I would also have to try hat alone too since Jerome Mason's track had some other gear in the signal path. Well.. Theres a reason it all costs that much. It works! I don't think your answer is a one holy grail box. That's like asking a microphone to be amazing at everything. You're going to need to get a few pieces and learn them well and how/when to use them. Its worth it when you do.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Mar 20, 2019 10:16:20 GMT -6
I agree with you Blackdawg. I'm trying to narrow down my choices and will take some time to learn about them and then try to make the best decision. Of course nothing beats getting your hands on a thing for a while. I don't mind if something's pricey, as long as it does what I want. I'll just take my time saving for it.
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Post by Guitar on Mar 20, 2019 13:34:17 GMT -6
I've had a pair of Western Electric 111C's on the output for years now. They add a small bit of Back In Black. There are a lot of other 600:600 transformer pairs around here, all with different tone. The biggest things would be max level and nickel content %, which both affect distortion profile. Pure steel handles the most level and has the lowest distortion near that high level, but has high distortion at low level relative to nickel content types and can sound nastiest in quiet sections. Nickel content stays cleanest on lowest level. Pretty easy to start collecting transformer pairs and wiring them up. Most 600:600 types need nothing other than pigtailed connectors. You can play with load resistors, but they make the least difference with (most) 600:600's. I would love to try this. I saw that you could get a pair of 600:600 ohm Carnhills from AML shipped to the US for about $80 total. That would be a pretty cheap experiment. Of course now I have to track down some Western Electric transformers since you've recommended them. :-D
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Post by EmRR on Mar 20, 2019 13:50:53 GMT -6
Those Carnhill sound good. One flavor. Hammond 850G’s are solid and cheap used. Something like $140/ea new. Edcor is the cheapest steel flavor of all.
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Post by BradM on Mar 20, 2019 14:59:32 GMT -6
Blackdawg - I wouldn't say that the Black Box HG-2 is a tube Silver Bullet. While also designed for the 2-bus, it's entirely it's own thing. Eric Racy is a friend and we've talked about trading our gear with one another. Can't have enough awesome flavors to choose from on your mix bus. cheers, Brad
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 20, 2019 15:04:06 GMT -6
Blackdawg - I wouldn't say that the Black Box HG-2 is a tube Silver Bullet. While also designed for the 2-bus, it's entirely it's own thing. Eric Racy is a friend and we've talked about trading our gear with one another. Can't have enough awesome flavors to choose from on your mix bus. cheers, Brad I didn't mean it quite like that Brad. Your box is much much more flexible. But the idea of a "tone" box is there in the HG-2 and its all tube based vs yours. Yours does much more than just tone though. Was day dreaming about having your box, the HG-2, and a Fusion. Pretty much have all the major flavors possible at that point. API, Neve, Tube, SSL. All in 6U of gear haha be pretty fun to have at your disposal. It shall all be mine someday...
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Post by stormymondays on Mar 20, 2019 15:12:41 GMT -6
Make that 7U. The Black Box is 3U.
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Post by BradM on Mar 20, 2019 15:20:28 GMT -6
I didn't mean it quite like that Brad. Your box is much much more flexible. But the idea of a "tone" box is there in the HG-2 and its all tube based vs yours. Yours does much more than just tone though. Was day dreaming about having your box, the HG-2, and a Fusion. Pretty much have all the major flavors possible at that point. API, Neve, Tube, SSL. All in 6U of gear haha be pretty fun to have at your disposal. It shall all be mine someday... I know what you mean. They are definitely both 2-bus tone boxes. In general I think workflow is highly underrated in gear design. Some boxes enhance workflow and guide you towards the finish line. And some boxes totally impede workflow. They lead you down a path where you realize 30 minutes later all you've done is tweak a bunch of knobs and not made any real progress on your mix even though a slick marketing video made it all seem so great. Simple is often best. Both the HG-2 and the Silver Bullet share a simple set of features designed for maximum sonics. Because I truly believe the Silver Bullet delivers superior transformer tone in a very steamlined workflow that beats the pants off of simply trying to run your mix into a mic preamp or a channel strip (most tend to appreciate this fact once they have the box in front of them and experience it), I'm going to do something I never do. Here's a coupon for $100 of a single B-stock unit. I have one unit available for whomever would like to take advantage: store.louderthanliftoff.com/discount/SILVERBULLETBSTOCK100?redirect=%2Fproducts%2Fsilver-bullet-drbills-stereo-tone-ampcheers, Brad
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Mar 20, 2019 16:25:31 GMT -6
Those Carnhill sound good. One flavor. Hammond 850G’s are solid and cheap used. Something like $140/ea new. Edcor is the cheapest steel flavor of all. At $35ea those used Hammonds are to inexpensive not to try, just wire them to a patchbay and add as needed.
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Post by drbill on Mar 20, 2019 16:30:15 GMT -6
I didn't mean it quite like that Brad. Your box is much much more flexible. But the idea of a "tone" box is there in the HG-2 and its all tube based vs yours. Yours does much more than just tone though. Was day dreaming about having your box, the HG-2, and a Fusion. Pretty much have all the major flavors possible at that point. API, Neve, Tube, SSL. All in 6U of gear haha be pretty fun to have at your disposal. It shall all be mine someday... I truly believe the Silver Bullet delivers superior transformer tone in a very steamlined workflow that beats the pants off of simply trying to run your mix into a mic preamp or a channel strip cheers, Brad <<snip....>> As Brad knows..... Back almost 15 years ago, I was the first crazy person I'd ever heard of to run their mixes thru multiple Mic pre's or channel Strips. I was told more than once I was doing it wrong. "You don't put a mix thru a mic pre...". Haha!!! Nevertheless, it worked for me, and I ended up talking about it a lot online, and 10 + years later, everyone's doing it. Well...a lot of engineers at any rate..... And a lot of them are using the exact same combination of pieces I used. I got some good results with both the Missing Links, VP26's, then VP28's and AML EZ73's and some other misc. gear thrown in for good measure. It all worked (mostly), and each one gave their own flavor to the situation being discussed in this thread - i.e. analog gear trying to emulate a console sound on the 2 buss - but it really slowed me down workflow wise. My workflow (kludged together mic pre's - often with large detented gain stages) patched together in the patch bay didn't give me the finesse I wanted, and they didn't have a simple elegant work flow that suited my mixing setup. The setup was clunky at best -- and swapping the order of the pieces (which were not all designed for line level work) was cumbersome - especially when I wanted to do something like drive the API side hard into the Neve side light. And then swap it vice versa and then A/B back and forth to see which I liked better. The more I got into it, the more it became a royal pita. But it's simple with the SB due to the internal workflow and cool gain staging feature Brad put in. Lucky for me, when I started talking with Brad he "got it" and was already there right with me in a lot of ways. For me personally, the Silver Bullet is the ultimate culmination of 10+ years of mic pre / channel strip / other outboard gear on the mix buss experiments. Eventually Brad and I said "screw it" - let's just make something that works like it was designed to be used that way. And that's what we did. I consider myself a lucky camper to be able to USE these tools that didn't exist before.... Literally - tools that didn't have a name when we invented it. Now there's a class of gear that more of less does the same thing. These days we kind of like to call it the "2 channel vintage console".
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Post by Blackdawg on Mar 20, 2019 16:48:37 GMT -6
I didn't mean it quite like that Brad. Your box is much much more flexible. But the idea of a "tone" box is there in the HG-2 and its all tube based vs yours. Yours does much more than just tone though. Was day dreaming about having your box, the HG-2, and a Fusion. Pretty much have all the major flavors possible at that point. API, Neve, Tube, SSL. All in 6U of gear haha be pretty fun to have at your disposal. It shall all be mine someday... I know what you mean. They are definitely both 2-bus tone boxes. In general I think workflow is highly underrated in gear design. Some boxes enhance workflow and guide you towards the finish line. And some boxes totally impede workflow. They lead you down a path where you realize 30 minutes later all you've done is tweak a bunch of knobs and not made any real progress on your mix even though a slick marketing video made it all seem so great. Simple is often best. Both the HG-2 and the Silver Bullet share a simple set of features designed for maximum sonics. Because I truly believe the Silver Bullet delivers superior transformer tone in a very steamlined workflow that beats the pants off of simply trying to run your mix into a mic preamp or a channel strip (most tend to appreciate this fact once they have the box in front of them and experience it), I'm going to do something I never do. Here's a coupon for $100 of a single B-stock unit. I have one unit available for whomever would like to take advantage: store.louderthanliftoff.com/discount/SILVERBULLETBSTOCK100?redirect=%2Fproducts%2Fsilver-bullet-drbills-stereo-tone-ampcheers, Brad Definitely! Which is why I think when I get a Silver Bullet it will still be the "hub" of everything. Something like the Fusion or HG-2 would be something to patch in later or used on a different bus. And damn..think someone else must have jumped on that deal! I shall get one someday.
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Post by EmRR on Mar 20, 2019 17:56:46 GMT -6
Back almost 15 years ago, I was the first crazy person I'd ever heard of to run their mixes thru multiple Mic pre's or channel Strips. I was told more than once I was doing it wrong. "You don't put a mix thru a mic pre...". Haha!!! Nevertheless, it worked for me, and I ended up talking about it a lot online, and 10 + years later, everyone's doing it. Yeah, that's basically what every pre-1970 console was and did. Then everyone moved on to newer methods. I had friends doing the same thing in the mid-90's.
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