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Post by chessparov on Jan 24, 2019 21:41:46 GMT -6
I find it interesting that more than one manufacturer, indicates their 251 style microphone is particularly suited for female vocalists. My understanding is that it'd be generally well suited for both male and female singers.
Thoughts?...
Thanks, Chris
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 22:22:14 GMT -6
Well, when I was in the recording side of this business the first mic I'd grab for a female was an ELA 251. If it were a male I'd grab an M49 or a U47. The thing you want with the girls is that air and some body, the ELA 251 (good ones) have a lot of low mid body and a very silky smooth top end.
With the guys, you want a mic that really grabs the "bucket" or as I've heard it "the growl in the vowel" The M49 and U47 do that extremely well, and so does the 251, but under compression to really pull the bucket out, the M49 or U47 just reacts better.
So, I would say as well that the 251 is more suited for females, or in my opinion, it would be the mic I grabbed first for a female, not so much a male, but it really depends on the vocal, sometimes they're perfect for the guy or sometimes you might need a U87 or U67. This is why I would suggest to anyone just opening up shop to buy 8 good clones rather than 1 expensive real deal.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 24, 2019 23:38:03 GMT -6
Thanks! About 10 years ago, when Vintage King LA was sponsoring an Open House...
The Flea 12 really blew my mind, for my "bright" toned voice. (great job Tim C.!) So that made me warm up, also to the 251 possibility. Chris
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 24, 2019 23:49:10 GMT -6
Well they're basically the same circuit and are the same capsule, the ELA 250/1 go cathode biased that I imagine was meant to be something easier but turned the C12 into a beast with the same silky top but a beefier lower mid. C12's are not my favorite on vocals honestly, but damn anytime I get a session that has "OHC12" or of the nature on it, damn they just are magic on overheads, make the whole drum kit sound "real" C12's are also totally amazing on Yamaha C5 or any great grand piano for that matter.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 25, 2019 1:36:14 GMT -6
In the cheap seats, I was quite impressed with some clips of the 3U Audio FET version. If I bump into Jack Douglas again at NAMM, I'm curious on his general take of the AA 251's. Also if T-Funk will have their Alchemy series, with its 251-ish mic, available to try. Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 1:42:16 GMT -6
It has everything to do with the source and the genre of music. It’s hugely popular on female voices. You do hear male vocalist on it as well. Funny enough, it’s very popular in the Classical Crossover genre on tenor vocalist; Andrea Bocelli, The Canadian Tenors, Il Divo, etc have all used it. Bocelli uses a 251 a lot, alternating between it and a Brauner, with the occasional U47 on his opera recordings. While I’m a huge fan of the M49 on my voice, in a modern crossover piece which is usually heavily layered with full orchestra, pad, drums, effects etc, the M49 can be a little thick. In that case a 251 would do well to cut through a mix. It’s one of the reasons I’m going to be demoing a Bock 251 soon. That and my wife did a recording on a Korby Kat 251 a while back, so I already know she’ll sound great on it.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 25, 2019 7:33:42 GMT -6
I have "clones" not originals. But my 251 is favored over my 47 for my male voice. The C12 build I had was also good for some vocals, although a little more "specific" than the 251.
I guess my voice can be slightly dark or round so the clarity of the 251 top is really flattering on me.
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Post by jeromemason on Jan 25, 2019 12:01:29 GMT -6
Yeah, a lot of guys can have some "honk" on their voice and while the 251 doesn't exactly exaggerate this, it doesn't help IMO. M49 and U47 really help in this case, and yes, while being thick, when you're a mixing guy like me, it's similar to a mastering engineer wanting us to leave or exaggerate the top end and low end so they can sculpt that, same deal, I'd much rather get a vocal that's too thick on the material but also is forgiving in the "honk" area so I can use my tools (multi band comp/eq) to sculpt the vocal to fit. However, if I'm given a vocal with "honk" it's incredibly hard to remove that, or at least get rid of it's footprints. So, if your voice has that 2k-5k bump when you're in your head voice, you would probably want to look at the M49/U47/U67 styles. If you've got a voice that is similar to Josh Turner, a 251 will make you sound great, big open and airy.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 25, 2019 12:36:04 GMT -6
I associate "honk" more with Neumann capsules
AKG CK12 style capsules are much more flat in the midrange
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 13:02:11 GMT -6
Yeah, a lot of guys can have some "honk" on their voice and while the 251 doesn't exactly exaggerate this, it doesn't help IMO. M49 and U47 really help in this case, and yes, while being thick, when you're a mixing guy like me, it's similar to a mastering engineer wanting us to leave or exaggerate the top end and low end so they can sculpt that, same deal, I'd much rather get a vocal that's too thick on the material but also is forgiving in the "honk" area so I can use my tools (multi band comp/eq) to sculpt the vocal to fit. However, if I'm given a vocal with "honk" it's incredibly hard to remove that, or at least get rid of it's footprints. So, if your voice has that 2k-5k bump when you're in your head voice, you would probably want to look at the M49/U47/U67 styles. If you've got a voice that is similar to Josh Turner, a 251 will make you sound great, big open and airy. Funny enough I’ve seen a bunch of photos of Thurl Ravenscroft in the studio on an ELA M 251. He’s the bass that originally brought us the Christmas classic “You’re a Mean One Mr. Grinch.” Not sure if he used it on that song, but I know he used that mic regularly enough that it crept into a bunch of his in the studio photos.
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Post by aremos on Jan 25, 2019 13:12:01 GMT -6
Yes. Totally depends on the SOURCE. And yes, AKG is more flat @ midrange than the Neumann "honk". Like that description. I heard a FleA C12 years ago & was not impressed at all.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 13:14:55 GMT -6
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Post by chessparov on Jan 25, 2019 13:22:28 GMT -6
Also the voice of Tony the Tiger for over five(!) decades-talk about a steady gig. Not a Thurl by ANY means (what a Bass!!), but having a solid baritone range-this is what attracts me to the 251. I agree Aremos, it depends on the source, C12 or 251 especially.
As "Tony" (Thurl) might say... That's a "grrreat picture"!
Chris
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Post by rowmat on Jan 25, 2019 13:25:23 GMT -6
What surprised me with the Bock 251 is the depth of the low end. The output transformer is much bigger than anything else I’ve seen in a condenser mic.
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Post by drbill on Jan 25, 2019 13:39:04 GMT -6
"anytime I get a session that has "OHC12" or of the nature on it, damn they just are magic on overheads, make the whole drum kit sound "real"".i'd agree with that wholeheartedly. The best drum sound I ever did (or that I can remember doing) was with a pair of matched, mint condition C12's... But try to find those anymore. Virtually impossible. And if you can, completely out of the price range of mortals. So.... I've ended up with Gefell's as my next best, but I'm still on the hunt for something more C12-ish, that I might like better.... My guess is that until I hit the lotto, I'll remain looking.....
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 14:06:56 GMT -6
Also the voice of Tony the Tiger for over five(!) decades-talk about a steady gig. Not a Thurl by ANY means (what a Bass!!), but having a solid baritone range-this is what attracts me to the 251. I agree Aremos, it depends on the source, C12 or 251 especially. As "Tony" (Thurl) might say... That's a "grrreat picture"! Chris One of my best friends has a voice like Thurl’s. He’s even sung the Grinch song on National TV because of it. It’s an incredible instrument to hear. Been itching to get my buddy in here to record. Looking at what was done with Thurl gives me a few pointers.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 25, 2019 14:23:20 GMT -6
That's awesome! And kids STILL love that Grinch song! Chris
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 17:52:48 GMT -6
That's awesome! And kids STILL love that Grinch song! Chris Off topic, here is my buddy Adam. He’s currently finishing his tour with the Army Choir as a soloist. He is basically the bass section on my recording of “Be My Love.”
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 14,966
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Post by ericn on Jan 27, 2019 8:59:08 GMT -6
I always hate it when people start putting mics in to specific application catagories, the classics are classics because in the days when most studios had a few mics they wouldn’t suck on just about anything. In the old days the engineers job was to make it work by moving the performers and turn the dials, switching out the mic was the last resort.
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Post by chessparov on Jan 27, 2019 12:55:24 GMT -6
Wow Adam sounds fantastic! Thurl would be proud. Chris
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