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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 11:42:47 GMT -6
I've been noticing lately that I can "get there", much quicker by paying closer attention to metering, particularly in the compression area. I've mostly been of the school that meters are secondary to ears, and in some cases, I'll admit that is true. However, I've been noticing that some things my ear can't pick up until it's too late.
For example, the ever elusive, all important bass track. I think we can all agree that a bass track is paramount to any successful mix. It haunts me. Getting the bass, or the foundation right is crucial to the mix we build on top of it.
I stumbled onto an idea that some of you probably already know., but for those who don't and the sake of conversation, I'll bring it up here. The attack and release of a bass track, (mostly a legato instrument) should be set to and from down beat to down beat, thus amounting to a tight, clear pattern between the notes. This can be done by ear of coarse but I've found I can get way more satisfied faster if I use meters to get the setup right before I look away and tweak to my ears.
This works for percussive instruments as well and maybe even more critical in scope.
This is something I've spent a great deal of time thinking on lately and I'm curious about the groups thoughts on this.
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Post by svart on Jan 8, 2019 13:14:22 GMT -6
I've been noticing lately that I can "get there", much quicker by paying closer attention to metering, particularly in the compression area. I've mostly been of the school that meters are secondary to ears, and in some cases, I'll admit that is true. However, I've been noticing that some things my ear can't pick up until it's too late. For example, the ever elusive, all important bass track. I think we can all agree that a bass track is paramount to any successful mix. It haunts me. Getting the bass, or the foundation right is crucial to the mix we build on top of it. I stumbled onto an idea that some of you probably already know., but for those who don't and the sake of conversation, I'll bring it up here. The attack and release of a bass track, (mostly a legato instrument) should be set to and from down beat to down beat, thus amounting to a tight, clear pattern between the notes. This can be done by ear of coarse but I've found I can get way more satisfied faster if I use meters to get the setup right before I look away and tweak to my ears. This works for percussive instruments as well and maybe even more critical in scope. This is something I've spent a great deal of time thinking on lately and I'm curious about the groups thoughts on this. There's been a multitude of tricks that the pros have used. I've read about anything from feeling the woofer cones of NS10's and knowing the "correct" amount of low end based on how they move, to things like using real VU meters for setting bass levels to specific values without consideration for how loud it sounds, etc. I guess it boils down to how these things work and what you're trying to overcome with them. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 13:30:13 GMT -6
Good point. It's all subjective. This method has been working better for me lately. I'm liking the results.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jan 8, 2019 13:52:26 GMT -6
I use both and prefer that way. I don't forgo the meter for my ear and I don't forgo my ear for the meter.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 8, 2019 13:53:56 GMT -6
I do the same thing. That still doesn’t help with levels, but it definitely gets the compression action in line. I think just knowing your monitors and how they respond at different dB is the best way to get low end levels correct. Definitely a continuous journey!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2019 14:32:53 GMT -6
Ears first, meters only to double check, if something sound wrong.
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Post by drbill on Jan 8, 2019 14:40:41 GMT -6
The attack and release of a bass track, (mostly a legato instrument) should be set to and from down beat to down beat. I agree 100% about the mix of "eyes and ears". I always depend on meters along with my ears, but after mixing 30+ years, I have never used the approach you take above..... ? ? ? |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 14:48:03 GMT -6
The attack and release of a bass track, (mostly a legato instrument) should be set to and from down beat to down beat. I agree 100% about the mix of "eyes and ears". I always depend on meters along with my ears, but after mixing 30+ years, I have never used the approach you take above..... ? ? ? I hadn't either. Try it once. Strap any comp on a bass track, digital, analog whatever. Then watch the decay from the compression stroke from transient to transient. Time that with the tempo of the song. It may need some slight tweaking but it will be pretty darn close in seconds. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 15:01:55 GMT -6
Using the threshold, attack and release in conjunction to get the right stroke in between. Just a method I ran onto and thought I'd share.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 15:05:27 GMT -6
I use both and prefer that way. I don't forgo the meter for my ear and I don't forgo my ear for the meter. This is the right thought process I think. My initial post was just to say I can shave some time looking at the meter first and then to the ears. Frankly, I've generally mixed the opposite direction. But I'm starting to rethink that a bit. It's the idea that the human brain can only do one thing at a time well. I truly believe that concept. |
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 8, 2019 15:06:56 GMT -6
Not saying there's a right or wrong in either. There's just so much in this thing that's left to interpretation.
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Post by notneeson on Jan 8, 2019 15:10:17 GMT -6
I've been noticing lately that I can "get there", much quicker by paying closer attention to metering, particularly in the compression area. I've mostly been of the school that meters are secondary to ears, and in some cases, I'll admit that is true. However, I've been noticing that some things my ear can't pick up until it's too late. For example, the ever elusive, all important bass track. I think we can all agree that a bass track is paramount to any successful mix. It haunts me. Getting the bass, or the foundation right is crucial to the mix we build on top of it. I stumbled onto an idea that some of you probably already know., but for those who don't and the sake of conversation, I'll bring it up here. The attack and release of a bass track, (mostly a legato instrument) should be set to and from down beat to down beat, thus amounting to a tight, clear pattern between the notes. This can be done by ear of coarse but I've found I can get way more satisfied faster if I use meters to get the setup right before I look away and tweak to my ears. This works for percussive instruments as well and maybe even more critical in scope. This is something I've spent a great deal of time thinking on lately and I'm curious about the groups thoughts on this. There's been a multitude of tricks that the pros have used. I've read about anything from feeling the woofer cones of NS10's and knowing the "correct" amount of low end based on how they move, to things like using real VU meters for setting bass levels to specific values without consideration for how loud it sounds, etc. I guess it boils down to how these things work and what you're trying to overcome with them. Eric Broyhill (an ME) once described mixing with someone who held the NS10s as above to me— nestling a speaker under each arm like twin babies. Cracks me up thinking about it... whatever works. I should add, it was a much more accomplished AE than myself. |
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Post by svart on Jan 8, 2019 15:26:34 GMT -6
There's been a multitude of tricks that the pros have used. I've read about anything from feeling the woofer cones of NS10's and knowing the "correct" amount of low end based on how they move, to things like using real VU meters for setting bass levels to specific values without consideration for how loud it sounds, etc. I guess it boils down to how these things work and what you're trying to overcome with them. Eric Broyhill (an ME) once described mixing with someone who held the NS10s as above to me— nestling a speaker under each arm like twin babies. Cracks me up thinking about it... whatever works. I should add, it was a much more accomplished AE than myself. I don't remember who it was, but I did seriously read about some well known engineer who walked up to the NS10's and put his hand on the woofer cone and asked the assistant to keep turning up the bass until he said stop.. The NS10 is certainly bass-shy, so this was apparently a tactile way to figure out if there was enough bass when your cabinet and driver don't go down that far! |
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Post by wiz on Jan 8, 2019 20:12:02 GMT -6
I actually use my hand, to check the bottom end of my Adam A7s, I can tell by how much air is coming out of the front port, and I can set the HIGH PASS appropriately.. mind you I have been using them for over 10 years....8)
I set the release time of compressors, by feel.
There is a release time setting where it just "Feels" right, and it makes you into the groove more.
cheers
Wiz
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2019 1:55:21 GMT -6
Same with comps for me, in mastering. Attack for snap, Release for groove. All by ears/feel, if it's obvious, I've overdone it.
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Post by jakeboy on Jan 10, 2019 12:30:07 GMT -6
I use both...but at the end of the day, if it sounds good it IS good. I do love hearing about and implementing new tips & tricks from the pros and all that are more experienced than I.
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Post by Ward on Jan 10, 2019 12:38:10 GMT -6
My ears and eyes are always fighting over who's right with this stuff . . .
The secret is not not really be able to hear any 'actual compression' but to be able to see a uniform level in the results.
At least, that's the secret to me
YMMV
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 12, 2019 13:02:10 GMT -6
The only place where I really watch my meters a bit more than usual and maybe even a bit more than my ears is vocals in a duet and making sure each voice is peaking at a similar volume. It’s particularly tricky as with the styles of music I work in you don’t want to overly compress the vocal, but you need each vocal to match their dynamic ranges or things can sound off. I will often tune things by ear first and then watch my meters, with VU for main output of gain reduction to make sure they are in the same ballpark.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 14, 2019 1:19:01 GMT -6
Ears first, meters only to double check, if something sound wrong. And always check in context not solo. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2019 3:08:21 GMT -6
For sure but always in context here as 95% mastering!
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Post by Ward on Jan 14, 2019 7:11:31 GMT -6
Ears first, meters only to double check, if something sound wrong. And always check in context not solo. I was tracking nylon string last night (a 1971 Gianna flamenco-ish guitar) and the usual set-up, a KM84 into a Focusrite Red-6 into a Mohog '76 . . . and solo, it sounded WAY too compressed, even though I was only getting any real meter movement on expressly loud parts. But in context, it didn't sound compressed at all! |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jan 14, 2019 10:13:46 GMT -6
Often meters lie, I have known to many guys who made crappy recordings because they treated meters like they were the holy gospel. Most never even considered they might be out of calibration or that different meters reacted differently.
You have to learn how to use both and when and where to trust either or. I think anybody who ever used a old mid treated console or 24 track learned this early on.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 16, 2019 8:10:03 GMT -6
I use the Klanghelm meter to give me a visual reference for my mix bus RMS levels, to keep me in a sane place.
Often times after an hour or two of recording my internal level sensitivity is all whacked out, and I need a more concrete measurement, to keep me from printing something insanely hot.
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 17, 2019 23:46:43 GMT -6
I've looked at meters a little more now because I have some left ear issues these days. Still use them as always to get input levels right.
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Post by cowboycoalminer on Jan 18, 2019 15:20:31 GMT -6
Ears first, meters only to double check, if something sound wrong. And always check in context not solo. I agree with this. |
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