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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 4, 2019 19:53:40 GMT -6
The cost and quality of the Body is the in my opinion the biggest cost difference. Is it better?? Thats the real test for me.. I think yes.. I don't want to throw the Warm discussion off track, but I'd love to see a post with you discussing what differences in the body make an impact and justify a difference in cost/quality. I understand the grill mesh can impact reflection of the sound source. Just start a new thread and tag a few of the builders on the site. We have a few of them whose perspectives might be nice to hear.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 21, 2019 23:27:14 GMT -6
First sample I've heard of this mic.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 22, 2019 6:29:20 GMT -6
In that mix difficult to differentiate the sound of the mike: seems there is a lot of compression ?
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Post by stratboy on Jan 22, 2019 6:45:43 GMT -6
I'm sort of in the middle about all these things. A few years ago I had nearly enough budget mics & low end clones to record a small orchestral ensemble or even a small jazz Ensemble. Then I found myself singing into a higher end clone, a FleA 47 to be specific, next to my Advanced Audio mics. I suddenly realized what I had been missing. I literally sold off most of my budget mics and most of my low budget clones to start over with a few higher quality pieces. I don't think price equals quality, but I think there are pricing levels that give you an idea of what you are buying particularly with clones. There are also different factors to consider.
I put the new Warm stuff in the same category as Peluso and Advanced Audio. They are good solid mics. They are not however great representations of the mics they are emulating. They are in the ball park, but in a view partially obscured seat. Each of these manufactures is different and doing their own thing with these clones. John Peluso was first on the block. He took the original circuits, modified them as needed, put it in a nice package, and sold through boutique stores. He even designed the CEK12 capsule; an affordable, easily mass produced capsule based on the original CK12 and with a similar frequency response. That said, his mics are now a bit over priced since the market is now much bigger.
Dave from Advanced Audio started out as a mic modder, taking Apex 460s into C12 style mics, using similar mods that Oliver Archut had designed when designing his Lucas mics. Originally Dave used Peluso capsules before reaching out to the same manufacture in China with his own specs and requirements. He then expanded his line to include a 47, 49, 251, and modded 67 types. His mics are pretty bare bones though, using stock Chinese bodies and power supplies to keep cost low. He also uses 2 particular tube circuits for all his mics, using capsules, transformers, and the circuit itself to emulate the sound of each mic they are aiming for, using all modern available parts. The mics are clean sounding and like the Peluso's usually a bit brighter in character than their vintage counterparts.
Warm seems to be in the middle. Like Peluso the package is a bit nicer than AA. Also the circuits and tube stages are a little closer to their vintage counter parts than AA. Like Peluso they also modify the circuits a bit to make them more cost effective, etc. Even Dave mentioned that he was surprised they could use certain components in their mics and keep them at this price point. Warm has a great name and you can buy them anywhere. It's a plus for them. That said, sonically they still sit in this category.
When you start to get beyond this level of clones into the 2k range you have a few options. You have custom builders like Chad at SAE or Shannon if you have more of a budget or a mic to mod, or small shops like Stam. Otherwise you need to go further up into the true boutique realm at 4k and up, and there are still a bunch of options; Wunder, Bock, FleA, Telefunken, companies who made a name for themselves making budget clones now releasing more accurate replicas like Bees Neez, and a slew of very small repair guys now making their own mics from parts they've had commissioned for their repair work like RMS, etc. Each of these guys makes quality products and makes their interpretation of these mics. Pricing for these can be all over the place too, but if you know about each business you can understand why. The game is essentially still the same.
Looking at boutique builders like Wunder, Bock, FleA, and Telefunken Elektroakustik the pricing differences are easy to discern. David Bock is dedicated to making mics that sound like the vintage classics, but with his own twists and solely with modern and available parts. They are made in the US where labor costs more. Wunder which is also made in the US sources most of it's parts elsewhere and assembles them. You're paying for the premium parts in their wunderful mics, but also a mark up on those part. That's business. FleA makes quite a lot of parts and their parts can often be found in their high end competitor's microphones as well. Modifications are made in the design of their mics to compensate for discontinued and rare tubes and such. Prices can be kept low due to Eastern European labor which costs less than US labor. Telefunken is similar to FleA in that they are trying to create the best replicas they can of the classic mics and their own new designs. However you are paying for US labor and you are paying for the name Telefunken to be stamped all over the place. Are their mics better than a FleA, Bock, or Wunder.... in build quality probably not. Sonically, it depends on your aesthetic and what your "ideal" sound is for that classic mic.
ericn 's argument is simple. Why buy this lower budget clone when there are mics that are off the beaten path that will do just as good or better than these clones at similar pricing. There are a number of Gefell mics with M7 capsules in the $1200-$1600 range that will do you as good and probably better than many of these cheap clones. They don't have the number 47 or 49 attached to it, but they'll sound terrific. He mentioned the Dan Alexander 1272 which I guarantee if you put it next to an AMS Neve or BAE that we would be split as to which is actually best and it would depend more on our aesthetic as artists rather than the cost of the gear.
All that said, if I somehow nabbed a commission to record a small orchestral ensemble onsite in a hall and needed a few mics quickly on a budget those Warm and AA mics would work just fine, especially when peppered with a few of my higher quality mics and some creative preamp decisions.
A great overview of the entire market from a thoughtful, articulate and experienced observer. Thanks, Vincent!
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 22, 2019 7:52:46 GMT -6
In that mix difficult to differentiate the sound of the mike: seems there is a lot of compression ? And probably a ton of EQ.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jan 22, 2019 8:31:56 GMT -6
FWIW, I've never used a 251, but that clip doesn't seem to have that midrange bite that I normally associate with the clips I've heard. The sound is this video is very different from what I would expect from a 251.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 22, 2019 8:54:07 GMT -6
The only thing I might add to Vincent's great post is in regard to the $9,000 Telefunken USA U47. In a shootout against 20 high end mics, the Tele U47 was my pick, and by a wide margin. I've heard it twice, and whatever they've done inside, that mic is a real deal U47. Now, can you probably get something at half that price that satisfies, of course, but IME that Telefunken mic doesn't belong in the same category as most of those pricey and excellent clones do, it surpasses them all.
My second choice in that mic comparison was the Bock 251, and to my surprise, I chose the Manley Reference third, above most of the high end clones Vincent mentioned that are available today.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 22, 2019 9:05:38 GMT -6
The only thing I might add to Vincent's great post is in regard to the $9,000 Telefunken USA U47. In a shootout against 20 high end mics, the Tele U47 was my pick, and by a wide margin. I've heard it twice, and whatever they've done inside, that mic is a real deal U47. Now, can you probably get something at half that price that satisfies, of course, but IME that Telefunken mic doesn't belong in the same category as most of those pricey and excellent clones do, it surpasses them all. My second choice in that mic comparison was the Bock 251, and to my surprise, I chose the Manley Reference third, above most of the high end clones Vincent mentioned that are available today. The Bock 251 always seems to jump out at me during shootouts. I’m working on getting a demo of it in here to hear it on Emily and I and see if it’s worth picking up in the future. Unfortunately, I’ve only heard one shoot out with the Telefunken U47 next to the FleA 47 and it was an earlier version of the microphone that didn’t have the new VF14K tube. I personally chose the FleA in that shootout, but we’re splitting hairs. jcoutu1, I agree. It sounds more like a C12 clone to me.
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Post by Guitar on Jan 22, 2019 11:40:08 GMT -6
One thing about this mic, and the DIY thing it's copying, is that gigantic film cap between the tube and the transformer. It's really not the right cap for a 251.
The original used a wet tantalum, and the $10,000 "reissue" use a Sprague electrolytic. These caps have the effect of slightly softening the sound, where the big film cap is going to sound a little too sharp and clear.
An immediate mod I would do to the Warm is find a big ass paper in oil cap to stick in that spot, since the space is available. Somewhere beteween 1 uF and 3 uF.
That was a lesson I learned when building my personal 251.
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Post by ragan on Jan 22, 2019 12:42:04 GMT -6
I’ve never heard a single fully mixed mic demo that tells me anything worthwhile. You have no idea what processing the guy/gal mixing it slathered on.
Much, much prefer raw audio on a few sources, preferably next to something we all know pretty well like a U87 or a 414 or something.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 22, 2019 13:05:53 GMT -6
I’ve never heard a single fully mixed mic demo that tells me anything worthwhile. You have no idea what processing the guy/gal mixing it slathered on. Much, much prefer raw audio on a few sources, preferably next to something we all know pretty well like a U87 or a 414 or something. I don’t disagree. It’s just the first sample of this mic I’ve heard and thought I’d share it.
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Post by ragan on Jan 22, 2019 13:14:55 GMT -6
I’ve never heard a single fully mixed mic demo that tells me anything worthwhile. You have no idea what processing the guy/gal mixing it slathered on. Much, much prefer raw audio on a few sources, preferably next to something we all know pretty well like a U87 or a 414 or something. I don’t disagree. It’s just the first sample of this mic I’ve heard and thought I’d share it. Oh yeah, absolutely.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jan 22, 2019 17:47:20 GMT -6
I like to hear fairly plain vocal tracks too, but I prefer a pinch of reverb. No EQ or compression. I've found that completely flat, even some superb vintage mics are unimpressive for some reason, but add a little verb, and it becomes clear what it's doing. Maybe that's just me.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 22, 2019 20:25:20 GMT -6
The cost and quality of the Body is the in my opinion the biggest cost difference. Is it better?? Thats the real test for me.. I think yes.. I don't want to throw the Warm discussion off track, but I'd love to see a post with you discussing what differences in the body make an impact and justify a difference in cost/quality. I understand the grill mesh can impact reflection of the sound source. EVERYTHING makes a difference. In the body the geometry of the body design affects the body resonances and hence the tone. Same thing for the materials, including thickness.l
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 22, 2019 20:27:52 GMT -6
It's an easy way to do the pattern selection. I think it originated on the Chunger/Poctop/GroupDIY mics. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. The first I saw was the ioaudio MK47, which was a kit on GroupDIY. Relays are a cheap but sometimes noisy substitute for expensive custom switches.
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Post by mike on Jan 24, 2019 19:32:53 GMT -6
There's a male vocal clip around the 1 minute mark of the WA251
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Post by kcatthedog on Jan 24, 2019 20:04:58 GMT -6
That vocal sounded pretty unprocessed, nice to hear the naturalness of the top end for example his breath, but no hype either ?
I liked the tone of the mike in general , nice body, yet balanced and he has a good strong voice, I didn't hear any break up or sibilance ?
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Post by Mister Chase on Jan 25, 2019 2:10:48 GMT -6
I was really impressed by the sound of the ADK 251 in a shootout someone did with a couple transformer options vs a Telefunken 251. The male vocal in the video above sounded pretty good.
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Post by Vincent R. on Jan 25, 2019 10:15:57 GMT -6
If you read the manual on their site they freely admit that the capsule is an all brass CEK12 variant. Not a true CK12. I imagine this will be similar sonically to the Peluso 22 251 or Advanced Audio’s CM251.
They also no longer post frequency response charts like they did with the WA87 and WA47. My guess is because their response is off from the expected response of a 251 and they want to avoid the same criticism they received over the WA87 & WA47’s responses.
Still it’s a good bargain and is cheaper than the Peluso and AA.
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Post by nick8801 on Jan 25, 2019 10:19:46 GMT -6
That actually sounded pretty nice on that vocal. It has some cool harmonic content going on, but it doesn't sound sibilant or spitty. Not quite as clear and "not there" as I hear 251's do sometimes, but still really great.
There's a male vocal clip around the 1 minute mark of the WA251
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Post by chessparov on Jan 25, 2019 14:31:45 GMT -6
Sorry to be "that guy", but based on Warm 's early QC level...
I'm hoping that any buyers experience a higher reliability level, than their other prior hardware products. IMHO their saving grace, has been their excellent customer service. Also there doesn't seem to be as many issues, with their microphones. I'm looking forward to trying out their line tomorrow, at NAMM. Chris
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