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Post by keymod on Jan 1, 2019 9:45:45 GMT -6
Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!! Sorry Martin, your statement just made me laugh so hard. I agree with you 100%!!!! Although I think there are probably other options that cost a fraction of the cost with 95% of the benefit. Start at the beginning and get things right. Understand star grounding. Understand how to wire a studio. Mysteriously, when you get that right, all problems start to disappear..... Or at least become manageable. To the OP's question. I agree with everyone else. Unless you're having surges (I used to get em up to 145v) or brownouts (I used to get those down to 90v too), you don't need regulation. Delivering great power to the studio and it's equipment is the first step. And Martin's suggestion is the cheapest and easiest place to start. After that...you're getting into tearing up the drywall and running 12 or 10 ga to your studio receptacles, making home run's instead of looping between receptacles, putting in a separate feed or sub panel to the studio with it's own ground, rewiring all your audio cables to meet star ground spec's, etc.. Gets tweaky. Star grounding 101.... I’ll get even more basic Bill shut down the main breaker, get out the proper size screw driver and or Allen wrench loosen and retighten the connections to nuteral, ground buss and breaker, also check for corrosion. Pull and reseat breaker. Pull outlet do the same with the wires on the outlets! Amazing the problems this can solve. In fact my building is currently converting 4 floors to residential and they are using the same electrical contractor who did the conversion 2-3 years ago of my place; on Thursday I was telling the guys how much better things were after I retightened everything ! Everything in an electrical system has a mandatory UL-listed torque setting, though in almost 40 years as an electrician, I have never seen anyone using a torque wrench or torque screw driver
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2019 11:33:43 GMT -6
2 things. 1 first in any old house the words “new wiring “ are open to interpretation get one of those 5 outlet testers that shows polarityand ground. Open up the outlet and make sure 3 prong outlet is grounded to ground not just the metal box. 2 realize any major re-wiring means holes in the walls so factor patching dry wall and paint in as well! It this is for his studio, right? And you want new wiring there even more so than his house. You’re going to go through some tear-up and reconstruction anyhow... so don’t neglect the hiring and don’t just tie to the water mains pipe for your ‘grounding’ Yeah I have just seen to many only budget for the electrician.
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Post by ericn on Jan 1, 2019 11:36:58 GMT -6
I’ll get even more basic Bill shut down the main breaker, get out the proper size screw driver and or Allen wrench loosen and retighten the connections to nuteral, ground buss and breaker, also check for corrosion. Pull and reseat breaker. Pull outlet do the same with the wires on the outlets! Amazing the problems this can solve. In fact my building is currently converting 4 floors to residential and they are using the same electrical contractor who did the conversion 2-3 years ago of my place; on Thursday I was telling the guys how much better things were after I retightened everything ! Everything in an electrical system has a mandatory UL-listed torque setting, though in almost 40 years as an electrician, I have never seen anyone using a torque wrench or torque screw driver I remember reading the spec’s on a GE box years ago and they were pretty high, of course it would have been really cool if the store that sold me the box would have stocked the big metric Allen wrench for the incoming power! That was Texas!
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2019 9:29:35 GMT -6
If I can make a suggestion without having to spend 10 pages defending it, start with an improved receptacle. I've heard noticeable improvements in noise level and bass solidity and imaging between the standard outlet in my apartment and the upgraded outlets. Of course, someone will say get ____, it's only $3.95 at the hardware store and it's just as good. That's not been my experience, so, here ya go: www.psaudio.com/products/power-port-classic/What I've found is that most of the folks I've heard of having outlet issues, they've found that it's because the contractors used the "push-in" ports on their receptacles. Those create a tiny little "bite" on the copper conductor, which is barely useful for a reading lamp let alone audio gear. Anyone who has problems with a receptacle should check if they have the "push-in" style and if so, they should pull the wires, sand the conductor back to a shiny copper and then use the screws on the side as tight as they can. Also, no need to buy a 50$ receptacle. Buy a "medical grade" or a "hospital grade" receptacle from your local store. I've seen them from 5-35$. They have much higher insertion forces (better contact) so nobody accidentally pulls the cable and disconnects granny's life support.
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Post by svart on Jan 2, 2019 9:35:37 GMT -6
Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!! Sorry Martin, your statement just made me laugh so hard. I agree with you 100%!!!! Although I think there are probably other options that cost a fraction of the cost with 95% of the benefit. Start at the beginning and get things right. Understand star grounding. Understand how to wire a studio. Mysteriously, when you get that right, all problems start to disappear..... Or at least become manageable. To the OP's question. I agree with everyone else. Unless you're having surges (I used to get em up to 145v) or brownouts (I used to get those down to 90v too), you don't need regulation. Delivering great power to the studio and it's equipment is the first step. And Martin's suggestion is the cheapest and easiest place to start. After that...you're getting into tearing up the drywall and running 12 or 10 ga to your studio receptacles, making home run's instead of looping between receptacles, putting in a separate feed or sub panel to the studio with it's own ground, rewiring all your audio cables to meet star ground spec's, etc.. Gets tweaky. Star grounding 101.... I’ll get even more basic Bill shut down the main breaker, get out the proper size screw driver and or Allen wrench loosen and retighten the connections to nuteral, ground buss and breaker, also check for corrosion. Pull and reseat breaker. Pull outlet do the same with the wires on the outlets! Amazing the problems this can solve. In fact my building is currently converting 4 floors to residential and they are using the same electrical contractor who did the conversion 2-3 years ago of my place; on Thursday I was telling the guys how much better things were after I retightened everything ! Tightening does two things.. It generally cleans the contact between the lug and the copper as you twist the metals against each other and it also squishes the metals together more tightly allowing a little more contact area between them for a lower ohmic contact point.
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Post by keymod on Jan 3, 2019 3:58:55 GMT -6
If I can make a suggestion without having to spend 10 pages defending it, start with an improved receptacle. I've heard noticeable improvements in noise level and bass solidity and imaging between the standard outlet in my apartment and the upgraded outlets. Of course, someone will say get ____, it's only $3.95 at the hardware store and it's just as good. That's not been my experience, so, here ya go: www.psaudio.com/products/power-port-classic/What I've found is that most of the folks I've heard of having outlet issues, they've found that it's because the contractors used the "push-in" ports on their receptacles. Those create a tiny little "bite" on the copper conductor, which is barely useful for a reading lamp let alone audio gear. Anyone who has problems with a receptacle should check if they have the "push-in" style and if so, they should pull the wires, sand the conductor back to a shiny copper and then use the screws on the side as tight as they can. Also, no need to buy a 50$ receptacle. Buy a "medical grade" or a "hospital grade" receptacle from your local store. I've seen them from 5-35$. They have much higher insertion forces (better contact) so nobody accidentally pulls the cable and disconnects granny's life support. In the trade, we call that "back-stabbing". And yes, it always stabs you in the back some time down the road. I've seen houses catch fire because of that. It's one of the reasons they had to develop Arc Fault circuit breakers and devices. The shitty connection expands/contracts over time, eventually leading to over-heating and/or failure as current flows through. And I've seen more and more problems over the years as the big-box stores continue to sell the crap to people and convincing them that they can do it themselves...…..
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Post by mulmany on Jan 3, 2019 8:42:39 GMT -6
What I've found is that most of the folks I've heard of having outlet issues, they've found that it's because the contractors used the "push-in" ports on their receptacles. Those create a tiny little "bite" on the copper conductor, which is barely useful for a reading lamp let alone audio gear. Anyone who has problems with a receptacle should check if they have the "push-in" style and if so, they should pull the wires, sand the conductor back to a shiny copper and then use the screws on the side as tight as they can. Also, no need to buy a 50$ receptacle. Buy a "medical grade" or a "hospital grade" receptacle from your local store. I've seen them from 5-35$. They have much higher insertion forces (better contact) so nobody accidentally pulls the cable and disconnects granny's life support. In the trade, we call that "back-stabbing". And yes, it always stabs you in the back some time down the road. I've seen houses catch fire because of that. It's one of the reasons they had to develop Arc Fault circuit breakers and devices. The shitty connection expands/contracts over time, eventually leading to over-heating and/or failure as current flows through. And I've seen more and more problems over the years as the big-box stores continue to sell the crap to people and convincing them that they can do it themselves...….. Interesting that you say the push-in ports are bad to use. It was my understanding that they were better since the mechanism is supposed to counteract the expansion/contraction loosening effect. Luckily they are only used for 15A circuits. I used the industrial "gray" outlets and they work great.
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Post by svart on Jan 3, 2019 8:52:12 GMT -6
In the trade, we call that "back-stabbing". And yes, it always stabs you in the back some time down the road. I've seen houses catch fire because of that. It's one of the reasons they had to develop Arc Fault circuit breakers and devices. The shitty connection expands/contracts over time, eventually leading to over-heating and/or failure as current flows through. And I've seen more and more problems over the years as the big-box stores continue to sell the crap to people and convincing them that they can do it themselves...….. Interesting that you say the push-in ports are bad to use. It was my understanding that they were better since the mechanism is supposed to counteract the expansion/contraction loosening effect. Luckily they are only used for 15A circuits. I used the industrial "gray" outlets and they work great. I don't know about problems in the trade, but I'm thinking more along the lines of having the average 14ga round copper conductor of around 0.06" diameter being "bitten" by a small metal plate with maybe 10% of the wire's diameter making contact. If it takes 14ga to be safe to 15A, then a tiny contact area would reduce the safe current to something like 2A I'm guessing. Add some heating due to the current through the small contact area and the retention force will weaken as the metal softens due to the heat and it'll eventually start going high-ohmic which will draw more current and heat more.. And you might get a burnt outlet.. Screws on the other hand have a lot of contact area, and when torqued properly, the softer copper will expand and contract like a sponge and you won't lose the torque.
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Post by ericn on Jan 3, 2019 9:11:07 GMT -6
Interesting that you say the push-in ports are bad to use. It was my understanding that they were better since the mechanism is supposed to counteract the expansion/contraction loosening effect. Luckily they are only used for 15A circuits. I used the industrial "gray" outlets and they work great. I don't know about problems in the trade, but I'm thinking more along the lines of having the average 14ga round copper conductor of around 0.06" diameter being "bitten" by a small metal plate with maybe 10% of the wire's diameter making contact. If it takes 14ga to be safe to 15A, then a tiny contact area would reduce the safe current to something like 2A I'm guessing. Add some heating due to the current through the small contact area and the retention force will weaken as the metal softens due to the heat and it'll eventually start going high-ohmic which will draw more current and heat more.. And you might get a burnt outlet.. Screws on the other hand have a lot of contact area, and when torqued properly, the softer copper will expand and contract like a sponge and you won't lose the torque. Often they just don’t seam to grab period!
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 3, 2019 16:23:40 GMT -6
If I can make a suggestion without having to spend 10 pages defending it/ Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!! Sorry Martin, your statement just made me laugh so hard. I agree with you 100%!!!! Although I think there are probably other options that cost a fraction of the cost with 95% of the benefit. Start at the beginning and get things right. Understand star grounding. Understand how to wire a studio. Mysteriously, when you get that right, all problems start to disappear..... Or at least become manageable. To the OP's question. I agree with everyone else. Unless you're having surges (I used to get em up to 145v) or brownouts (I used to get those down to 90v too), you don't need regulation. Delivering great power to the studio and it's equipment is the first step. And Martin's suggestion is the cheapest and easiest place to start. After that...you're getting into tearing up the drywall and running 12 or 10 ga to your studio receptacles, making home run's instead of looping between receptacles, putting in a separate feed or sub panel to the studio with it's own ground, rewiring all your audio cables to meet star ground spec's, etc.. Gets tweaky. Star grounding 101.... Twisting the pairs of power cable in the wall... Bill Whitlock wrote a white paper on that that's available from Jensen Transformer.
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Post by drbill on Jan 3, 2019 16:41:53 GMT -6
Hahahahahaaaaaaa!!!! Sorry Martin, your statement just made me laugh so hard. I agree with you 100%!!!! Although I think there are probably other options that cost a fraction of the cost with 95% of the benefit. Start at the beginning and get things right. Understand star grounding. Understand how to wire a studio. Mysteriously, when you get that right, all problems start to disappear..... Or at least become manageable. To the OP's question. I agree with everyone else. Unless you're having surges (I used to get em up to 145v) or brownouts (I used to get those down to 90v too), you don't need regulation. Delivering great power to the studio and it's equipment is the first step. And Martin's suggestion is the cheapest and easiest place to start. After that...you're getting into tearing up the drywall and running 12 or 10 ga to your studio receptacles, making home run's instead of looping between receptacles, putting in a separate feed or sub panel to the studio with it's own ground, rewiring all your audio cables to meet star ground spec's, etc.. Gets tweaky. Star grounding 101.... Twisting the pairs of power cable in the wall... Bill Whitlock wrote a white paper on that that's available from Jensen Transformer. Yes, I'm aware.
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 4, 2019 2:11:44 GMT -6
Twisting the pairs of power cable in the wall... Bill Whitlock wrote a white paper on that that's available from Jensen Transformer. Yes, I'm aware. Of course. Others might not be.
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Post by brenta on Jan 4, 2019 10:25:55 GMT -6
So on a related topic has anyone figured out a way to reduce or eliminate the buzz from guitar amps?
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 4, 2019 10:43:31 GMT -6
So on a related topic has anyone figured out a way to reduce or eliminate the buzz from guitar amps? From the guitar and amplified by the amp or frtom the amp itself?
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Post by brenta on Jan 4, 2019 12:00:02 GMT -6
So on a related topic has anyone figured out a way to reduce or eliminate the buzz from guitar amps? From the guitar and amplified by the amp or from the amp itself? Well I'd like to hear remedies for both but from the amp itself has always been my biggest problem. Across a variety of different studios but some are definitely worse than others.
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2019 12:25:56 GMT -6
From the guitar and amplified by the amp or from the amp itself? Well I'd like to hear remedies for both but from the amp itself has always been my biggest problem. Across a variety of different studios but some are definitely worse than others. 2 wire or 3 wire power cord? What amp? Vintage? Modern? Is it hiss or hum or buzz?
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 4, 2019 15:19:31 GMT -6
From the guitar and amplified by the amp or from the amp itself? Well I'd like to hear remedies for both but from the amp itself has always been my biggest problem. Across a variety of different studios but some are definitely worse than others. Well, if it's really from the amp itself (sitting there not connected to anything except the speaker, no input cable, turned on) it's probably time to take the amp to a tech. Most likely it needs recapping. If it has a 2 conductor power cord it needs to be replaced with a grounded cable and have the "death cap" removed. Other potential sources of hum/buzz include a problem with the bias supply or a really bad imbalance between power tubes. Some Fenders have a "hum balance" control istead of a bias pot, which could be out of adjustment. On some Fenders and similar amps if the reverb tank has been turned around with the wrong end near the power supply it can cause a hum.
Somne tube amps are naturally noiser than others, usually mods can be done to decrease the hum in these by increasing the size of the power supply caps. This can affect the tone of the amp when driven hard to some degree by stiffening the "sag" in the power supply.
Tube amps can be very dangerous to work on - there are lethal voltages inside - so I would not recommend working on it yourself if you lack experience.
What kind of amp is it?
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Post by wiz on Jan 4, 2019 15:39:58 GMT -6
Well I'd like to hear remedies for both but from the amp itself has always been my biggest problem. Across a variety of different studios but some are definitely worse than others. 2 wire or 3 wire power cord? What amp? Vintage? Modern? Is it hiss or hum or buzz? 3 wire hiss modern nothing connected cheers Wiz
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Post by svart on Jan 4, 2019 15:55:43 GMT -6
2 wire or 3 wire power cord? What amp? Vintage? Modern? Is it hiss or hum or buzz? 3 wire hiss modern nothing connected cheers Wiz Well that would be a tough one. More hiss than usual without accompanying hum/buzz is generally a tube problem. I'd unplug tubes one at a time starting at the first one and see when it goes way down. If not, it could be a connection of some type with some corrosion. The corrosion oxides can act like a diode and become a whitenoise generator, or even a diode radio! Could also be a carbon resistor going bad as the carbon lattices are starting to fall apart and the self-noise gets higher. Still probably a tube though. Generally modern amps have a lot more care taken in decoupling, grounding and signal routing so there is less chance of buzz and hum unless something goes drastically wrong. Older amps are a lot more prone to these things due to the lack of all those things.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 5, 2019 0:44:18 GMT -6
I am totally with the "medical grade" outlet thing. No need to argue for 10 pages, LOL. My brother worked in the intensive care unit of a local hospital, and we got a few of the outlets they used there from the house technician for free. Extremely reliable stuff. Worth it for sure...
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Post by johneppstein on Jan 5, 2019 17:13:36 GMT -6
2 wire or 3 wire power cord? What amp? Vintage? Modern? Is it hiss or hum or buzz? 3 wire hiss modern nothing connected cheers Wiz Is this the same amp brenta is talking about or are we discussing two different amps?
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Post by mulmany on Jan 5, 2019 21:54:12 GMT -6
Interesting that you say the push-in ports are bad to use. It was my understanding that they were better since the mechanism is supposed to counteract the expansion/contraction loosening effect. Luckily they are only used for 15A circuits. I used the industrial "gray" outlets and they work great. I don't know about problems in the trade, but I'm thinking more along the lines of having the average 14ga round copper conductor of around 0.06" diameter being "bitten" by a small metal plate with maybe 10% of the wire's diameter making contact. If it takes 14ga to be safe to 15A, then a tiny contact area would reduce the safe current to something like 2A I'm guessing. Add some heating due to the current through the small contact area and the retention force will weaken as the metal softens due to the heat and it'll eventually start going high-ohmic which will draw more current and heat more.. And you might get a burnt outlet.. Screws on the other hand have a lot of contact area, and when torqued properly, the softer copper will expand and contract like a sponge and you won't lose the torque. Funny thing... A buddy of mine asked me to help him out with some electrical issues at his new house. One switch was sizzling every time they switched it on. Pulled it apart and it was using the push-in ports. Pulled those right out of there!
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Post by wiz on Jan 5, 2019 21:54:42 GMT -6
3 wire hiss modern nothing connected cheers Wiz Is this the same amp brenta is talking about or are we discussing two different amps? Different
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