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VCA's
Dec 17, 2018 17:02:23 GMT -6
Post by keymod on Dec 17, 2018 17:02:23 GMT -6
What benefit, if any, is there to using a VCA fader to control several channels at once ( think perhaps drums or vocals ) instead of simply sending those channels to a bus and using the bus' fader?
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 17, 2018 17:07:03 GMT -6
Its a gain thing.
By turning down the VCA you lower gain going into the final bus.
If you turn down the bus...your just lower the gain of the bus.
So imagine you have a bus compressor, the VCA will change out that compressor gets hit. The Bus volume just changes how much you're letting out.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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VCA's
Dec 17, 2018 17:32:15 GMT -6
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Post by ericn on Dec 17, 2018 17:32:15 GMT -6
A VCA group is simply all about control.
A regular group is a sub mix, it mixes the inputs together in their own mix.
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VCA's
Dec 17, 2018 20:07:05 GMT -6
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Post by guitfiddler on Dec 17, 2018 20:07:05 GMT -6
When I run signal through my VCA buss on my analog console it adds some nice beef to the signal. Not sure why, but it sounds better!
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VCA's
Dec 18, 2018 15:01:22 GMT -6
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Post by keymod on Dec 18, 2018 15:01:22 GMT -6
Its a gain thing. By turning down the VCA you lower gain going into the final bus. If you turn down the bus...your just lower the gain of the bus. So imagine you have a bus compressor, the VCA will change out that compressor gets hit. The Bus volume just changes how much you're letting out. That's assuming that the compressor is on the bus inserts, correct? The inserts are usually pre-fader? |
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 18, 2018 15:03:07 GMT -6
Everything inserted on a group bus is post the channel faders feeding it. But the insert itself could be pre or post bus fader. Make sense?
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VCA's
Dec 18, 2018 15:11:53 GMT -6
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 18, 2018 15:11:53 GMT -6
Everything inserted on a group bus is post the channel faders feeding it. But the insert itself could be pre or post bus fader. Make sense? I think that depends on what DAW you’re using doesn’t it? |
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Post by svart on Dec 18, 2018 15:16:21 GMT -6
Gain staging.
Your busses have finite headroom, and sometimes you need to control your channels before the busses to keep from running out of bus headroom.
But you also want to be careful that you're not feeding your busses with too low of a level and resorting to using a lot of makeup gain, because that ruins SNR.
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VCA's
Dec 18, 2018 15:28:34 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 18, 2018 15:28:34 GMT -6
Everything inserted on a group bus is post the channel faders feeding it. But the insert itself could be pre or post bus fader. Make sense? I think that depends on what DAW you’re using doesn’t it? I suppose so, in Cubase there are both pre and post fader inserts on every channel and bus. But I think you can configure that in most DAWs, no? I use PT and Logic sometimes but not not for mixing so I’m not sure how they handle it. |
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VCA's
Dec 18, 2018 15:28:48 GMT -6
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Post by Tbone81 on Dec 18, 2018 15:28:48 GMT -6
Everything inserted on a group bus is post the channel faders feeding it. But the insert itself could be pre or post bus fader. Make sense? I think that depends on what DAW you’re using doesn’t it? Yeah I suppose so, in Cubase there are both pre and post fader inserts on every channel and bus. But I think you can configure that in most DAWs, no? I use PT and Logic sometimes but not for mixing so I’m not sure how they handle it. |
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VCA's
Dec 18, 2018 15:43:36 GMT -6
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 18, 2018 15:43:36 GMT -6
I think that depends on what DAW you’re using doesn’t it? Yeah I suppose so, in Cubase there are both pre and post fader inserts on every channel and bus. But I think you can configure that in most DAWs, no? I use PT and Logic sometimes but not for mixing so I’m not sure how they handle it. Fairly certain every insert in PT is pre fader, except for a Master fader. Inserts are post fader on a Master. |
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Post by keymod on Dec 18, 2018 16:21:19 GMT -6
Everything inserted on a group bus is post the channel faders feeding it. But the insert itself could be pre or post bus fader. Make sense? I think that depends on what DAW you’re using doesn’t it? Or analog console. |
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 7:22:48 GMT -6
Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2018 7:22:48 GMT -6
Wait a sec . . . using voltage controlled amplifiers versus potentiometers? Isn't there less noise with reductive gain control than active gain control?
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 8:15:32 GMT -6
Post by Blackdawg on Dec 19, 2018 8:15:32 GMT -6
Wait a sec . . . using voltage controlled amplifiers versus potentiometers? Isn't there less noise with reductive gain control than active gain control? Yes analog VCAs are nosier. Digital makes no difference |
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Post by svart on Dec 19, 2018 8:20:56 GMT -6
Wait a sec . . . using voltage controlled amplifiers versus potentiometers? Isn't there less noise with reductive gain control than active gain control? Yes analog VCAs are nosier. Digital makes no difference Depends on who you ask, and how the processing happens. Lots of truncation (for speed) on digital bussing can lead to degradation of fidelity. Digital is not a free lunch. Each method has drawbacks whether the end user knows this or not.. But sometimes like in older SSL consoles, the VCAs imparted a sound that was later purposely driven to get that SSL heft out of the console. Lots of the old timers knew just how hard to hit the busses for the "sweet spot" that bent the transients for some pleasing harmonic distortion. Can't do that with digital busses. |
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 8:22:05 GMT -6
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Post by Ward on Dec 19, 2018 8:22:05 GMT -6
Yes analog VCAs are nosier. Digital makes no difference Depends on who you ask, and how the processing happens. Lots of truncation (for speed) on digital bussing can lead to degradation of fidelity. Digital is not a free lunch. Each method has drawbacks whether the end user knows this or not.. But sometimes like in older SSL consoles, the VCAs imparted a sound that was later purposely driven to get that SSL heft out of the console. Lots of the old timers knew just how hard to hit the busses for the "sweet spot" that bent the transients for some pleasing harmonic distortion. Can't do that with digital busses. This is my understanding also... and I didn't even need to holler "can I get an expert or an amen in here?" :-) |
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 8:24:12 GMT -6
Ward likes this
Post by svart on Dec 19, 2018 8:24:12 GMT -6
Wait a sec . . . using voltage controlled amplifiers versus potentiometers? Isn't there less noise with reductive gain control than active gain control? The VCAs on channels in big consoles were a stop gap to allow digital control over large numbers of channels that humans couldn't realistically perform without tons of hands available. In the days before VCA or flying fader automation, they used to call in assistants/interns/runners to handle a few faders each during mixdown. |
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 8:55:15 GMT -6
Post by swurveman on Dec 19, 2018 8:55:15 GMT -6
A VCA group is simply all about control. A regular group is a sub mix, it mixes the inputs together in their own mix. ....which is important particularly for FX sends. When you us a channel FX send it is normally post fader. So, when you lower the track fader the amount of signal being sent into the FX send-and to the FX channel- is proportionally raised or lowered. If you sum multiple tracks to a stereo group (AUX) and use the group fader to control their overall level you just made all those track FX sends pre fader sends. If you lower or raise the group channel's fader the FX are still being sent out of the individual tracks at the same amount and your FX balance is destroyed. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Dec 19, 2018 9:07:41 GMT -6
I use them in PT as an easy way to print stems.
So - drums, bass, gtrs, keys, lead vocal and bgv’s etc all get their own VCA fader and group. They are always set at “O” initially. Then when I want to do my vocal up, vocal down, tv track, instrumental, etc - I do all my levels and changes with the VCA fader. I can easily be at the bottom of my session and control all of those separate things while watching my print go down. Best part is, I don’t have to mess or make changes to my volume automation on the individual tracks, and when I open a session for a recall, I can just set all those faders back to “0” and I’m at my “Main” mix levels.
Sort of reminds me of the Trim automation function on an SSL
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VCA's
Dec 19, 2018 9:47:03 GMT -6
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Post by Blackdawg on Dec 19, 2018 9:47:03 GMT -6
Yes analog VCAs are nosier. Digital makes no difference Depends on who you ask, and how the processing happens. Lots of truncation (for speed) on digital bussing can lead to degradation of fidelity. Digital is not a free lunch. Each method has drawbacks whether the end user knows this or not.. But sometimes like in older SSL consoles, the VCAs imparted a sound that was later purposely driven to get that SSL heft out of the console. Lots of the old timers knew just how hard to hit the busses for the "sweet spot" that bent the transients for some pleasing harmonic distortion. Can't do that with digital busses. Im certainly not "one of those guys" but my time on an SSL showcased that for sure. Definitely had a sweet spot to push stuff into. I use them in PT as an easy way to print stems. So - drums, bass, gtrs, keys, lead vocal and bgv’s etc all get their own VCA fader and group. They are always set at “O” initially. Then when I want to do my vocal up, vocal down, tv track, instrumental, etc - I do all my levels and changes with the VCA fader. I can easily be at the bottom of my session and control all of those separate things while watching my print go down. Best part is, I don’t have to mess or make changes to my volume automation on the individual tracks, and when I open a session for a recall, I can just set all those faders back to “0” and I’m at my “Main” mix levels. Sort of reminds me of the Trim automation function on an SSL The old school way before regular PT had VCAs was using Aux track for everything. I still do this more or less for all the reasons you mention. But having actual volume trim on had is very nice too. |
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Post by Guitar on Dec 21, 2018 10:18:38 GMT -6
I use it to get me out of hot water.
If I have a good balance that I've spent time on, yet the master bus is way too hot, I can trim all my tracks down equally to get my headroom back, while preserving my balance.
Saved me a few times.
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