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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 1, 2018 14:18:00 GMT -6
They're great for suggestions for tracking. . . . At least not everything I get to mix is tracked how I'd want it Maybe not, but the OP mentioned "tracking and mixing", so I was mostly replying to them. and I do appreciate your input. Thank you.
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Post by svart on Nov 1, 2018 14:26:50 GMT -6
My experience has been even tiny mic movements like 1/4" can have huge impacts on the peaks. It's amazing to listen to white noise through an amp while positioning a mic using headphones. You can hear the significant changes in the peaks this way just barely moving the mic. Find where the white noise sounds the smoothest and use the mic in that spot. And yeah, I've found that rolling the volume knob on a guitar back a bit and then using a boost pedal can really tame some of the twank sound you get from some pickups. Such a complex interaction from something so simple as a pickup and a pot! OK so I have heard of the white noise technique. So you are saying to listen and move the mic and find when those areas are calmed down. I will try that, thanks.
Will there be multiple places where the mic can null, or most likely just one? Because I am concerned that if I chase the null, I will also end up with a sound that may not be isolated enough, or the rest of the tonal signature isn't what I desire. It's a trade off and all that, I understand. Has it been your experience that you can get the general tone you want as well as null the nasties?
Good question! Yes, there will be multiple places where you'll hear strange changes in the noise, which equate to various effects of peaks and nulls in the frequency spectrum. Of course, pulling the mic back a very far distance and more towards the edge will give you the most smooth upper midrange, but it will also darken the top end and you will lose the low end proximity effect. However, I'm speaking more of the very close micing technique, and you'll hear more of the mids change as you move the mic. Also, try twisting the mic some, pointing towards and away from the dust cap. All of these can make big differences in how it sounds, with less than an inch of movement. My experience is that with a 57, I start the mic at the point where the dust cap and the cone meet, with the inside edge of the mic lined up with the outside edge of the dust cap. The mic's front face equal in distance to the grill of the cabinet. From there you should get a general picture of the tone, and then move as you desire. I almost always end up somewhere between the dust cap and halfway out the cone, and somewhere from against the grill and 6" away. Sometimes I'm pointing straight down the axis of the speaker, sometimes pointing perpendicular to the face of the cone's paper which sort of looks like it's 45 degrees off axis from the speaker, while still the same distance from the dust cap. The other option is to use something like an R121 ribbon. On bright speakers and amps I use the ribbon, either right over the dust cap, or just over the seam between the dust cap and the cone. Ribbons are much less likely to sound "pinched" by those peaks, but still need some moving around. I've personally gone away from multiple mics to mix together after tracking as I don't like the phasing issues they create, even when matched as well as possible, and usually just stick with either a 57 or R121 for everything. Then again, the 57 tends to peak around 3K and make any of those peaks worse, so that's when I'd try the ribbon. I almost always end up using the ribbon for Fender or Vox, and 57 for marshall, orange, peavey and mesa. I also tend to use my V30 cabs for most things as the peaks are a bit more tame than brighter speakers. Sometimes a creamback is smooth enough but without the low end woof of the V30. I don't typically like Greenbacks on much of anything since they do accentuate those mid peaks. In any case, this is one of those things where experience starts to really matter. I had to "relearn" how to mic properly and I used the white noise method to really hear the change in micing because I always spent too much time messing with the amps and not the mic placement, and I could never seem to get a proper sounding guitar. Once I stopped and spent a lot of time in just moving mics and trying different placements did I start to instinctively hear the placement in my head while setting up a mic and amp for tracking.
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Post by Guitar on Nov 1, 2018 15:34:30 GMT -6
I don't know what it claims but I love soothe Hermetech, someone raised you good. You're giving a disclosure even when the product is free to download Btw, here's what the engineer did to the vocals off some song, anyone heard of rolling in the deep? I'm curious as to the source of this information. Do you have any more details? Thanks. There is a Sound On Sound article about Tom Elmhirst recording Adele and I'd consider it essential reading. That's where this image originated. There's a good one on Amy Winehouse too. I guess I'm a huge Tom Elmhirst fan. And not necessarily because of reading, but I do find myself notching like that very often. Apparently a lot of people do notching. It's sort of an assumed EQ move for a bunch of mixers that I've heard speaking about their process. My mixes have improved since I started notching more often.
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Post by wiz on Nov 1, 2018 19:21:12 GMT -6
I used to suffer with this problem, close mic ing guitar cabs with dynamics like the SM57 etc
Nowadays, I use a ribbon mic, Rode NTR, about a foot back, lined up at the centre of the speaker, vertical and horizontal.
I then just move the mic in and out a tad, whilst listening to find the best spot.. but honestly you could just PLONK the mic there and be good to go.
Give it a shot.
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 1, 2018 21:54:02 GMT -6
OK so I have heard of the white noise technique. So you are saying to listen and move the mic and find when those areas are calmed down. I will try that, thanks.
Will there be multiple places where the mic can null, or most likely just one? Because I am concerned that if I chase the null, I will also end up with a sound that may not be isolated enough, or the rest of the tonal signature isn't what I desire. It's a trade off and all that, I understand. Has it been your experience that you can get the general tone you want as well as null the nasties?
Good question! Yes, there will be multiple places where you'll hear strange changes in the noise, which equate to various effects of peaks and nulls in the frequency spectrum. Of course, pulling the mic back a very far distance and more towards the edge will give you the most smooth upper midrange, but it will also darken the top end and you will lose the low end proximity effect. However, I'm speaking more of the very close micing technique, and you'll hear more of the mids change as you move the mic. Also, try twisting the mic some, pointing towards and away from the dust cap. All of these can make big differences in how it sounds, with less than an inch of movement. My experience is that with a 57, I start the mic at the point where the dust cap and the cone meet, with the inside edge of the mic lined up with the outside edge of the dust cap. The mic's front face equal in distance to the grill of the cabinet. From there you should get a general picture of the tone, and then move as you desire. I almost always end up somewhere between the dust cap and halfway out the cone, and somewhere from against the grill and 6" away. Sometimes I'm pointing straight down the axis of the speaker, sometimes pointing perpendicular to the face of the cone's paper which sort of looks like it's 45 degrees off axis from the speaker, while still the same distance from the dust cap. The other option is to use something like an R121 ribbon. On bright speakers and amps I use the ribbon, either right over the dust cap, or just over the seam between the dust cap and the cone. Ribbons are much less likely to sound "pinched" by those peaks, but still need some moving around. I've personally gone away from multiple mics to mix together after tracking as I don't like the phasing issues they create, even when matched as well as possible, and usually just stick with either a 57 or R121 for everything. Then again, the 57 tends to peak around 3K and make any of those peaks worse, so that's when I'd try the ribbon. I almost always end up using the ribbon for Fender or Vox, and 57 for marshall, orange, peavey and mesa. I also tend to use my V30 cabs for most things as the peaks are a bit more tame than brighter speakers. Sometimes a creamback is smooth enough but without the low end woof of the V30. I don't typically like Greenbacks on much of anything since they do accentuate those mid peaks. In any case, this is one of those things where experience starts to really matter. I had to "relearn" how to mic properly and I used the white noise method to really hear the change in micing because I always spent too much time messing with the amps and not the mic placement, and I could never seem to get a proper sounding guitar. Once I stopped and spent a lot of time in just moving mics and trying different placements did I start to instinctively hear the placement in my head while setting up a mic and amp for tracking. Very good. Thanks for the explanation. I don't like multi-micing guitar cabs much either. Amp speakers tend to get phasey in obvious and strange ways to me unlike other instruments.
I have a very "overall" approach to tone when moving mics on the guitar cab. I guess I need to focus on some of the ringing as well. Never did. Just though, "hey that doesn't sound too bright or dark, it sounds similar to what I hear in the room, and the proximity effect is nice, and it's not picking up much room ambience"
I guess once I reach that point, I then need to zoom in and do the sub 1" thing for the ringing. Chances are I will still be in the right tone-zone overall but can mitigate the rings. I'll try it sometime if I can get my arms to heal up.
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Post by Mister Chase on Nov 1, 2018 21:56:44 GMT -6
I used to suffer with this problem, close mic ing guitar cabs with dynamics like the SM57 etc Nowadays, I use a ribbon mic, Rode NTR, about a foot back, lined up at the centre of the speaker, vertical and horizontal. I then just move the mic in and out a tad, whilst listening to find the best spot.. but honestly you could just PLONK the mic there and be good to go. Give it a shot. Cheers Wiz I do indeed like my Velo 8 and R84 in the fashion you describe. However, I need an iso box or closet as with ribbons at that distance and being fig of 8, I tend to get more room ambience.
I get great results with ribbons, however there is a certain aesthetic to an sm57 that sounds classic when up close that I wish to take advantage of in many of my recordings.
Jazz however, this is the go to.
Thanks.
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Post by johneppstein on Nov 2, 2018 12:28:42 GMT -6
If you're having problems with exaggerated ringing peakiness on electric guitars, the first two things I'd do are lose the SM57 and take the mic away from the middle of the dustcap, which seems to be the default position for a lot of people. Lose the 57 because if you've ever had a chance to see a real pen graph readout of a 57 you'l have noticed that they're extremely ragged in the presence region. I would use somethiong like an M201 (or M88), which has a 57-like general curve but is smooth in the presence region, without the ragged peaks. Alternately an EV RE-10/11/15/16 is pretty good, but without proximity so it might not be exactly what you're looking for. Second, speakers radiate higher frequencies from the inner cone and dustcap and lower frequencies from the edge, so I tend to place the mic toward the edge but pointing inward toward the middle. That way you can adjust the tonal balance with the angle of the mic. Think about shining a narrow beam flashlight along the cone - the illuminated area corresponds more or less to the on-axis response of the mic. One might think this would result in an excessively bass-heavy sound, but remember that it takes much more energy to push low end than it does treble so in practice it tends to balance out more than you might think. Distance vs. energy content.
Also, moving the mic away from the dust cap makes it much less sensitive to ring modes that project from specific areas of the cap, determined by the relationship between frequency and the diameter of the cap at any given circumferance, so adjustment of the mic becomes a good deal less "fiddley."
All of the better manuals on sound reproduction and speaker design when I was coming up made a point of discussing the relationship between frequency projection and region of the cone and dustcap by circumferance, but for some reason this appears to have become largely overlooked in the last 20 or so years.
I don't like multi-micing unless it's one close dynamic and one far condenser, and I hardly ever even do that.
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