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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 29, 2018 16:17:59 GMT -6
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Post by Vincent R. on Oct 29, 2018 18:47:14 GMT -6
Hmm..
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Post by EmRR on Oct 29, 2018 20:35:11 GMT -6
Same examples linked on the DPA site? I haven't checked it yet.
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Post by aremos on Oct 29, 2018 20:54:58 GMT -6
Great & educational!
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 29, 2018 21:39:40 GMT -6
Same examples linked on the DPA site? I haven't checked it yet. wouldn't be surprised as they use a lot of 4006a mics(some of my favorites ever) but also Scheops which is kind of the two main mics used in classical today. |
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Post by EmRR on Oct 29, 2018 21:43:53 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 30, 2018 7:12:03 GMT -6
I was courious, but I clicked and my first thought was where are the M50’s? M49’s KM84’s and Sennhiser MKH series. I know their are a bunch of DPA and Schoeps guys out there but most I know would trade a Kidney for a nice pair of M50’s !
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 7:51:05 GMT -6
I was courious, but I clicked and my first thought was where are the M50’s? M49’s KM84’s and Sennhiser MKH series. I know their are a bunch of DPA and Schoeps guys out there but most I know would trade a Kidney for a nice pair of M50’s ! I have 5 m50s. Never use them. The 4006 is an insanely omni omni mic. As in off axis response is flat almost to 16k for the most part. The 4041 is also one I use just as much. It's similar to the m50s as the high frequencies are more directional. Plus the slightly higher boost in the highs is nice for the hall I work in as it is dark. Works wonders on piano. The m50s are too directional for me personally. And sound sometimes hollow. I use them as spot microphones here and there. But overall they see very little use. Not that they aren't good microphonestuff as they have been used countless times for countless recordings. M49...eh. that's a mic that's specific. It either really works or really really doesn't haha KM84 well...you can't openly buy those so why bother. They are great but can only get them used. MKH would be nice to hear though. They are a very different sounding mic I think. Great though. But yeah. I'm one of those DPA and Scheops guys  |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 30, 2018 7:57:50 GMT -6
Man... studio I do a lot of work at has 2 M49’s and they ALWAYS work on every source I try them on. Fantastic microphones.
I do really like a pair of Omni schoeps on piano though.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Oct 30, 2018 8:03:19 GMT -6
I was courious, but I clicked and my first thought was where are the M50’s? M49’s KM84’s and Sennhiser MKH series. I know their are a bunch of DPA and Schoeps guys out there but most I know would trade a Kidney for a nice pair of M50’s ! I have 5 m50s. Never use them. The 4006 is an insanely omni omni mic. As in off axis response is flat almost to 16k for the most part. The 4041 is also one I use just as much. It's similar to the m50s as the high frequencies are more directional. Plus the slightly higher boost in the highs is nice for the hall I work in as it is dark. Works wonders on piano. The m50s are too directional for me personally. And sound sometimes hollow. I use them as spot microphones here and there. But overall they see very little use. Not that they aren't good microphonestuff as they have been used countless times for countless recordings. M49...eh. that's a mic that's specific. It either really works or really really doesn't haha KM84 well...you can't openly buy those so why bother. They are great but can only get them used. MKH would be nice to hear though. They are a very different sounding mic I think. Great though. But yeah. I'm one of those DPA and Scheops guys 5 M50’s ! So we know where your retirement money is coming from. I know it’s a personal thing, but the M50 was used on so many of the most raves about classical recordings that I just can’t imagine a shoot out without it. It’s like a pop vocal shootout without a good U47! Also we know that in classical mic choice is very room dependent. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 8:11:11 GMT -6
I have 5 m50s. Never use them. The 4006 is an insanely omni omni mic. As in off axis response is flat almost to 16k for the most part. The 4041 is also one I use just as much. It's similar to the m50s as the high frequencies are more directional. Plus the slightly higher boost in the highs is nice for the hall I work in as it is dark. Works wonders on piano. The m50s are too directional for me personally. And sound sometimes hollow. I use them as spot microphones here and there. But overall they see very little use. Not that they aren't good microphonestuff as they have been used countless times for countless recordings. M49...eh. that's a mic that's specific. It either really works or really really doesn't haha KM84 well...you can't openly buy those so why bother. They are great but can only get them used. MKH would be nice to hear though. They are a very different sounding mic I think. Great though. But yeah. I'm one of those DPA and Scheops guys 5 M50’s ! So we know where your retirement money is coming from. I know it’s a personal thing, but the M50 was used on so many of the most raves about classical recordings that I just can’t imagine a shoot out without it. It’s like a pop vocal shootout without a good U47! Also we know that in classical mic choice is very room dependent. That is true. Always two performers in every recording. The player and the room. Which is really the cool part about this showcase is how mic placement works. Which everyone here knew it was important but this site was cool I thought for this hat reason alone. Plus the dpas in this link are 4006a with ape50 on them I think. So a 50mm ball on the mic to make them like m50s haha dpa is emulating the m50. But it's better, the low end response alone is insane on the 4006. Considering you can get 4 4006s for the price of one m50 I can't say I'm surprised that the college that did this didn't have 6 m50s to throw in haha And to be fair more of the studio I run has 5 m50s haha I could never afford that! |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 8:12:51 GMT -6
Man... studio I do a lot of work at has 2 M49’s and they ALWAYS work on every source I try them on. Fantastic microphones. I do really like a pair of Omni schoeps on piano though. Good! Not trying to discourage it's use. Again I've mainly used it as a spot mic on large strings. Sounds great for that for me! |
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Post by ericn on Oct 30, 2018 8:21:16 GMT -6
5 M50’s ! So we know where your retirement money is coming from. I know it’s a personal thing, but the M50 was used on so many of the most raves about classical recordings that I just can’t imagine a shoot out without it. It’s like a pop vocal shootout without a good U47! Also we know that in classical mic choice is very room dependent. That is true. Always two performers in every recording. The player and the room. Which is really the cool part about this showcase is how mic placement works. Which everyone here knew it was important but this site was cool I thought for this hat reason alone. Plus the dpas in this link are 4006a with ape50 on them I think. So a 50mm ball on the mic to make them like m50s haha dpa is emulating the m50. But it's better, the low end response alone is insane on the 4006. Considering you can get 4 4006s for the price of one m50 I can't say I'm surprised that the college that did this didn't have 6 m50s to throw in haha And to be fair more of the studio I run has 5 m50s haha I could never afford that! I also think not enough people understand how different the philosophy/ approach to classical / acoustic music is to pop and how critical your choice of spot mic is to both bring the instrument’s personality and at the same time working with the main array without destroying the soundstage or the sense of reality. |
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Post by Ward on Oct 30, 2018 8:43:13 GMT -6
So Blackdawg . . . how much you want for those $500 M50 microphones? |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 8:56:46 GMT -6
That is true. Always two performers in every recording. The player and the room. Which is really the cool part about this showcase is how mic placement works. Which everyone here knew it was important but this site was cool I thought for this hat reason alone. Plus the dpas in this link are 4006a with ape50 on them I think. So a 50mm ball on the mic to make them like m50s haha dpa is emulating the m50. But it's better, the low end response alone is insane on the 4006. Considering you can get 4 4006s for the price of one m50 I can't say I'm surprised that the college that did this didn't have 6 m50s to throw in haha And to be fair more of the studio I run has 5 m50s haha I could never afford that! I also think not enough people understand how different the philosophy/ approach to classical / acoustic music is to pop and how critical your choice of spot mic is to both bring the instrument’s personality and at the same time working with the main array without destroying the soundstage or the sense of reality. Probably also true. I mean thats not as popular of a genre to begin with. To find great musicians for it and a great space alone is hard enough. Not impossible but most folks also aren't as interesting in that. So Blackdawg . . . how much you want for those $500 M50 microphones?  |
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Post by Ward on Oct 30, 2018 9:19:43 GMT -6
I also think not enough people understand how different the philosophy/ approach to classical / acoustic music is to pop and how critical your choice of spot mic is to both bring the instrument’s personality and at the same time working with the main array without destroying the soundstage or the sense of reality. Probably also true. I mean thats not as popular of a genre to begin with. To find great musicians for it and a great space alone is hard enough. Not impossible but most folks also aren't as interesting in that. So Blackdawg . . . how much you want for those $500 M50 microphones? Can I issue a purchase order or promissory note? |
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Post by drbill on Oct 30, 2018 9:33:51 GMT -6
M50's are the decca tree and outrigger defacto standard on the west coast scoring stages.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 9:55:24 GMT -6
M50's are the decca tree and outrigger defacto standard on the west coast scoring stages. I can believe it. Every time I see behind the scenes stuff on scoring stages they have tons and tons of microphones up though too. I've only set foot in EW Studios and Fox's scoring stage. But they aren't exactly concert halls in terms of the rooms sounding great. Still, that was my dream job...still kind of is..to be a score engineer. But got this gig and didn't have to move to the west coast so that's nice haha That said, Im not a scoring engineer, but i know you do that yes? To me scoring is still about control and very much a studio session vs a classical one is different. I don't really know that as I've never done a scoring session. I have spent about 4-5 hours moving microphones less than an inch at a time in a concert hall to get the perfect blend of room and piano though. I know that doesn't happen in scoring session. Too expensive! |
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Post by drbill on Oct 30, 2018 10:46:00 GMT -6
I do it sometimes. But I really wouldn't even call myself a scoring engineer. That title is reserved for (literally) a handful of guys IMO. That title takes a lifetime of experience, and those guys are world class artists in their own right. Extremely good and talented at what they do. More often than that, I'm responsible for mixing and/or writing the scores. Setup is always the day ahead of the record, and it's a controlled environment in comparison to a live record in a hall. There is certainly the "moving around" of mics, but it's been done so many times on these stages that the guys like Bobby or Dennis know exactly where to set up the mics, and pretty much know how it's going to sound before a musician even steps foot in the room. As far as balancing, everything is usually spot mic'd as well. IME though, the Decca and wide mics equal about 70-80% of the mix, with the spot mics there for bringing out inner lines that were not balanced appropriately during the performance - or to pull up and make a line or part more intimate or aggressive. The orchestral musicianship in LA and/or London is beyond belief. Spectacular most times. And the environment like the Warners stage, Sony stage or Capitol are known entities that sound phenomenal. Literally the "sound of movies".
IMO, of course. YMMV.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 10:53:30 GMT -6
I do it sometimes. But I really wouldn't even call myself a scoring engineer. That title is reserved for (literally) a handful of guys IMO. That title takes a lifetime of experience, and those guys are world class artists in their own right. Extremely good and talented at what they do. More often than that, I'm responsible for mixing and/or writing the scores. Setup is always the day ahead of the record, and it's a controlled environment in comparison to a live record in a hall. There is certainly the "moving around" of mics, but it's been done so many times on these stages that the guys like Bobby or Dennis know exactly where to set up the mics, and pretty much know how it's going to sound before a musician even steps foot in the room. As far as balancing, everything is usually spot mic'd as well. IME though, the Decca and wide mics equal about 70-80% of the mix, with the spot mics there for bringing out inner lines that were not balanced appropriately during the performance - or to pull up and make a line or part more intimate or aggressive. The orchestral musicianship in LA and/or London is beyond belief. Spectacular most times. IMO, of course. YMMV. Yeah i believe it! Super cool. Would be a killer job, also intense. For me the idea of getting to working in some of the best studios in the world, with some of the best composers, directors, producers, orchestrators, conductors, and musicians ever was what I wanted. Top top tier shit. Plus doing full format orchestra stuff is so awesome. I miss that. Movie stuff is even more intense as you intermix big band, electronic music, sound effects all in the music. A lot going on. Your opinion is pretty big for this as you work with it a lot haha |
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Post by drbill on Oct 30, 2018 11:08:45 GMT -6
Intense is the understatement of the year. There is often tens of thousands of dollars an hour riding on these sessions when you count all the musicians, engineers, tech's, studio, and creatives involved. Just a tiny mistake or technical issue can cost unbelievable amounts of money. Way too crazy for me to actually "enjoy" the sessions. LOL Actually, since my move, I've been able to leave a lot of that stress behind, but I'm still getting called by the studio's for a "few" select sessions. (Mixed the new Pirates orchestral sessions for Disney Shanghai a couple years ago - that was a highlight. Rock n Roll orchestra!!). Enjoying life more now, but you're right, hearing a world class orchestra play the **** out of inspired music live and in the moment, in a world class scoring stage like Sony or Capitol is a rarified pleasure that few get to experience. I count myself very lucky - a blessing I will never forget. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 30, 2018 11:18:46 GMT -6
Intense is the understatement of the year. There is often tens of thousands of dollars an hour riding on these sessions when you count all the musicians, engineers, tech's, studio, and creatives involved. Just a tiny mistake or technical issue can cost unbelievable amounts of money. Way too crazy for me to actually "enjoy" the sessions. LOL Actually, since my move, I've been able to leave a lot of that stress behind, but I'm still getting called by the studio's for a "few" select sessions. (Mixed the new Pirates orchestral sessions for Disney Shanghai a couple years ago - that was a highlight. Rock n Roll orchestra!!). Enjoying life more now, but you're right, hearing a world class orchestra play the **** out of inspired music live and in the moment, in a world class scoring stage like Sony or Capitol is a rarified pleasure that few get to experience. I count myself very lucky - a blessing I will never forget. Super jealous. I had an in at Capitol for a bit. But it closed when they were bought out by Corporate and HR did the hiring instead of the engineers hiring assistants/runners they wanted. Oh well. I think i would have hated LA anyways haha |
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Post by M57 on Oct 30, 2018 14:01:59 GMT -6
I also think not enough people understand how different the philosophy/ approach to classical / acoustic music is to pop and how critical your choice of spot mic is to both bring the instrument’s personality and at the same time working with the main array without destroying the soundstage or the sense of reality. This may be fodder for another thread, but can you elaborate just a little more on this, say when recording something like piano? Depending on the genre, sometimes it seems like people here live in dramatically different worlds of gear (mostly mics - but also pre-amps) and placement techniques. |
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Post by joseph on Oct 30, 2018 15:56:59 GMT -6
I think Spitfire audio uses M50s and C12s for their Decca tree.
Speaking for myself, in general I'm not a fan of excessive multimiking for orchestral recordings.
Klemperer for EMI at Kingsway Hall used Decca tree plus outriggers and soloist spots I believe, Martinon ORTF, Peter Maag LSO. Not sure what they used for Kempe's Strauss or Sawallisch's Schumann with the Staatskapelle Dresden, but those have much more natural engineering than the Karajan recordings from same period, which don't compare well to his 60s Jesus-Christus-Kirche Sibelius recordings which sound really good.
Best recent orchestral recordings I've heard are Nelsons conducting BSO Brahms cycle.
Possibly the best orchestral recording I've heard period is Haitink's 1981 Bruckner 9 (early digital too!), so would be interesting to find out what the set up was for that aside from a perfect orchestra and hall.
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Post by ericn on Oct 31, 2018 9:51:02 GMT -6
This may be fodder for another thread, but can you elaborate just a little more on this, say when recording something like piano? Depending on the genre, sometimes it seems like people here live in dramatically different worlds of gear (mostly mics - but also pre-amps) and placement techniques. IMHO, based on my experience in classical acoustic music the ideal goal is that all you use is the main array. Your not looking for color or how it will work in a mix, your try to present a reproductive of a performance. Spot mics are used these days because of the economics, you can’t afford to bring the orchestra back in because the clarinets are not coming through and overdubs just won’t fit in right. You pointed to piano and here is where pop is very much the inverse of classical: pop the close mics are the main and room mics are more of an effect, classical the room mic is the main and close mic is more of an effect. |
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