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Post by M57 on Oct 21, 2018 6:19:25 GMT -6
I was reading one of popmann's posts in the stretch piano thread and thought this might be an interesting topic. I beat myself up trying to record my grand piano. It's a really nice, relatively stable, good sounding instrument that is infinitely more fun and inspiring to play than a keyboard - and I'm able to keep it all but perfectly in tune - but my recordings are not always consistent and I always find myself wondering if I should be laying down tracks with a sampled piano.
Same with orchestral instruments.. I used a virtual english horn on one of my tracks a few years ago and spent many hours tweaking attacks, and modulations and got it sounding pretty damn real. But when the opportunity arose for me to have a real player come in and lay down the part instead - I jumped. My recording was not as pristine as the sample, but I ended up using the real thing, which BTW has grown on me.
Then there's the in between/hybrid thing where I find myself using real players to augment virtual parts like strings - or conversely using drum samples to augment kicks, snares, etc..
For me, the genre and the function of the instrument in the context of the arrangement has a lot to do with this kind of decision, but I'm hoping folks might share some of their experiences and thoughts on the subject.
Mods/john: please move this to a more appropriate folder if you think it isn't gear related enough
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Post by Ward on Oct 21, 2018 6:48:26 GMT -6
I think your thread is very much appropriate and on-topic for this forum, just my opinion!
After all, we discuss recording techniques here, not just gear!!
A matched pair of great condensor is necessary, (personal favorites include Neumann Gefell 930 and Neumann KM84)
a stereo microphone preamp or channel strip, vitally necessary . . .. personally, I think a great EQ and limiter is also important.
for EQ, nothing to my ears beats an API 560 Graphic, because the way you can gently sweep down the lower mids to clear up any mud, which doesn't always happen.
for limiter, my favorite has always been the REV F 1176 set on 4:1 engaging only on FF and above, which then really accentuates the hammer impact nicely - like any of the great Elton John recordings. Caribou comes to mind.
But everyone has different technics and there is no single best method! But see the attached . . .
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Post by Ward on Oct 21, 2018 6:50:24 GMT -6
 Sorry forgot the attachment. This isn't my photo by the way. It's one that's been shared around before, but an excellent example of a very close micing technic that can work for some pianos. |
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Post by notneeson on Oct 21, 2018 8:45:17 GMT -6
The piano I've recorded the most is a pretty beat looking Baldwin upright, but I'd take it over samples any day of the week precisely because it has it's very own character.
The thing that kind of bugs me intellectually about virtual instruments, drum samples, and even amp sims is there sameness, it's like when you realize all your friends have the same Ikea couch.
But, they're very useful and, most often very balanced and hi-fi which can be a good reference point sonically if you're working in a less than perfect monitoring environment.
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Post by yotonic on Oct 21, 2018 9:11:34 GMT -6
Sorry forgot the attachment. This isn't my photo by the way. It's one that's been shared around before, but an excellent example of a very close micing technic that can work for some pianos. I shared this photo. I use this technique with a pair of Neumann KM84, Neve 1073, and UREI 1178 as described. And it's hard not to get a good piano sound. To answer the original question I think the real thing makes a significant difference to me as a listener and consumer of music. I find that real instruments have a lot of extra content that the brain recognizes and picks up on whether you are conscious of it or not. But there are songs where "tracks & samples" are fun sounding and fit the aesthetic, so context matters too. I love me some Howard Jones. |
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ericn
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Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Oct 21, 2018 10:04:46 GMT -6
I think your thread is very much appropriate and on-topic for this forum, just my opinion! After all, we discuss recording techniques here, not just gear!! A matched pair of great condensor is necessary, (personal favorites include Neumann Gefell 930 and Neumann KM84) a stereo microphone preamp or channel strip, vitally necessary . . .. personally, I think a great EQ and limiter is also important. for EQ, nothing to my ears beats an API 560 Graphic, because the way you can gently sweep down the lower mids to clear up any mud, which doesn't always happen. for limiter, my favorite has always been the REV F 1176 set on 4:1 engaging only on FF and above, which then really accentuates the hammer impact nicely - like any of the great Elton John recordings. Caribou comes to mind. But everyone has different technics and there is no single best method! But see the attached . . . Ward pretty much nailed it except he left out one very important aspect and honestly the one thing that in my old age has become the number one reason other than ability of player / possible amount of editing for keeping it real or not; THE ROOM!!! no instrument is more room dependent than piano, and over the years live and recording I have had to deal with way to many great pianos in shitty rooms and shitty pianos in great rooms. Well if one has to be shitty and you want exceptable results give me the shitty piano in a great room any day of the week ! Of the things we can control as engineers mic choice and placement is always going to be the biggest deal, If I can I will try to use a pair further back in the room than Ward, but then I was brought up in a Classical environment so that influence weighs heavily. Mic Choice is pretty fluid based on instrument, player, room and end goals. I will say this, the first time I moved a less than skillful player from a Steinway to a midi keyboard recording a midi file than editing it as midi then played it back tramping a Kurtzweil module left me wondering how much more hair I would have today if I had tried this earlier with those who had bitten off more than they could chew! Always keep in mind end goals and what you are going to need to achieve them when guiding the selection of instrument in any situation, even with a skilled player if you know your going to have to do a lot of editing MIDI can be a god send, most modern players understand and honestly won’t fight you. |
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 21, 2018 10:51:08 GMT -6
I go for the real thing every time I can. People add stuff to it that you can't get from a virtual instruments and often a pro musician will nail what the hell it needs to be WAY faster than I could ever do with a Midi anything ha.
That said. Piano is very hard to record imo. At least really well.
If you're too close, hammer noise and pedal noise can be an issue. Or even balance can be, like the highs can be all in the left mic and lows all in the right mic so that when the player plays a run in literally "pans" by itself. Which I don't like sometimes. Other times its cool.
As a person who does basically all acoustic recordings for a living. There is a huge factor that is overlooked I think often and thats the room. If you don't have a good room, its going to be much harder to get a great sound no matter what microphone you have or player or anything. On top of that, a good instrument is also very important. Then the player. Then your mic placement. Then the mic selection.
My favorite way for a jazz/pop sound is an ORTF off to the side facing the lid or a spaced pair about 18''-24'' apart facing in. How high and how close is determined by the situation. Then I have usually a main pair further back. I do surround recordings so I usually have 13ch for solo piano recordings ha!
I'll post up a quick sample on Monday of a recent one that I'm pretty happy with.
Anyways, I would go for more space perhaps instead of something really close. You can still make it sound very intimate without burying the microphones in the strings. Acoustic instruments radiate sound from all kinds of different directions depending on the notes played. If you're too close, it won't sound how it should, least not to me and most people I work with.
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Post by Blackdawg on Oct 21, 2018 10:53:09 GMT -6
Sorry forgot the attachment. This isn't my photo by the way. It's one that's been shared around before, but an excellent example of a very close micing technic that can work for some pianos. Man really? I would hope most don't do this. That is RIGHT at the hammers and the pedal action. Gotta be super noise sounding..plus do that weird "natural panning" from high to low as well. Id back that down the piano a good 2-3' |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 21, 2018 21:08:20 GMT -6
Have you tried taking the lid off the piano when you’re recording it?
I generally go with a pair of SDC Omni mics. One back lower on the piano and one up by the higher strings. Then put something less clinical and more interesting out in the room, maybe a pair of ribbons. Maybe jam a D19 in a soundhole if there is one laying around just in case it sounds cool in the mix
Hammer and pedal noise never bothered me. Isn’t that what it sounds like when you play the damn thing?
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Post by M57 on Oct 22, 2018 4:28:26 GMT -6
Have you tried taking the lid off the piano when you’re recording it? I generally go with a pair of SDC Omni mics. One back lower on the piano and one up by the higher strings. Then put something less clinical and more interesting out in the room, maybe a pair of ribbons. Maybe jam a D19 in a soundhole if there is one laying around just in case it sounds cool in the mix Hammer and pedal noise never bothered me. Isn’t that what it sounds like when you play the damn thing? I haven't taken the lid off, but I've considered it ..and probably should try. I've been using Omni SDCs for the last few months and I think I like that. Hammer and Pedal noise come with the territory, but just like I don't like too much sibilance with singers, or too much squeaking of strings on a guitar - I don't like too much hammer and pedal. I gave up on micing the bottom side of the piano long ago. However one thing that made a HUGE difference for me personally is changing the way I play. There's no need to push the pedal all the way down, and it didn't take too long to train myself to be much less bombastic with the way I press on the thing. Turns out, you only need to get the dampers to clear the strings enough that they can ring freely, which is nowhere near pedal to the metal. |
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Post by jeremygillespie on Oct 22, 2018 5:06:55 GMT -6
Have you tried taking the lid off the piano when you’re recording it? I generally go with a pair of SDC Omni mics. One back lower on the piano and one up by the higher strings. Then put something less clinical and more interesting out in the room, maybe a pair of ribbons. Maybe jam a D19 in a soundhole if there is one laying around just in case it sounds cool in the mix Hammer and pedal noise never bothered me. Isn’t that what it sounds like when you play the damn thing? I haven't taken the lid off, but I've considered it ..and probably should try. I've been using Omni SDCs for the last few months and I think I like that. Hammer and Pedal noise come with the territory, but just like I don't like too much sibilance with singers, or too much squeaking of strings on a guitar - I don't like too much hammer and pedal. I gave up on micing the bottom side of the piano long ago. However one thing that made a HUGE difference for me personally is changing the way I play. There's no need to push the pedal all the way down, and it didn't take too long to train myself to be much less bombastic with the way I press on the thing. Turns out, you only need to get the dampers to clear the strings enough that they can ring freely, which is nowhere near pedal to the metal. If I have a pedal stomper on our grand, I fold up a piece of felt and jam it between the bottom of the pedal and the bottom plate to keep it from going down all the way. Makes for the same effect when the player can’t restrain themselves! |
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Post by Ward on Oct 22, 2018 5:19:10 GMT -6
Sorry forgot the attachment. This isn't my photo by the way. It's one that's been shared around before, but an excellent example of a very close micing technic that can work for some pianos. Man really? I would hope most don't do this. That is RIGHT at the hammers and the pedal action. Gotta be super noise sounding..plus do that weird "natural panning" from high to low as well. Id back that down the piano a good 2-3' This isn't a picture of one of my sessions, as was highlighted above. I don't go for this close a close-mic'ing technique either but it still IS viable, especially if you are fond of the hammers in the sound. I like the sharp attack of good solid felt hammers but don't go to close eoither so that it sounds like they're made of wood or . even that old weird technique of "shellacing" the hammers. Usually,, I'm a foot to 18" above the strings and spaced evenly in a coincident pair. I'm not fond of XY mic'ing a piano as it starves the outer octaves of their power. I'm likewise not too fond of this ORTF as I find the center keys don't have the same tone that I hear when either playing or standing next to a piano and listening to someone else play. But I still say that what was depicted is OK! |
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Post by notneeson on Oct 22, 2018 7:22:06 GMT -6
I often ask the piano player what registers they’re using and keep that in mind when placing the SDCs. Occasional smart ass remarks are to be expected.
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Post by Ward on Oct 22, 2018 8:39:54 GMT -6
I often ask the piano player what registers they’re using and keep that in mind when placing the SDCs. Occasional smart ass remarks are to be expected. "Don't shoot me, I'm only the piano player." LOL But if the smart-ass has it coming, so be it. |
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Post by Guitar on Oct 22, 2018 15:30:19 GMT -6
Every time I pine for a grand piano the people that live with me scoff and roll their eyes. You just can't talk to some people. Someday...
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Post by mcirish on Oct 22, 2018 15:44:06 GMT -6
I too wanted a larger grand piano but settled for a Yamaha U3. The string length is equivalent to a 6' grand. With all the covers off, it does have a very convincing sound. I used to play a Yamaha C2 twice a week for 10 years. The U3 does a pretty good job and saves a lot of space. After I figured out how to mic it for the best sound, I'm pleased with it. KM84 a foot above looking down on the keys + a stereo pair of MC930 on the bottom, just outside the keybed and centered between the keybed and floor angled in slightly. That's a very nice sound. I know many people like to mic the soundboard but that's not possible in my current location. This works very well.
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