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Post by ragan on Sept 21, 2018 15:55:22 GMT -6
That was the weak link on the SF Apollo and a touch on the BF, though the BF is quite a bit better.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 16:27:16 GMT -6
One option is to buy a standalone DAC. That way you can use whatever interface you want as long as it has SPDIF. Takes monitoring out of the equation. If you have a bunch of funds maybe a Benchmark DAC 3 or something like that. That has been my major solution the past 4-5 years or so. I've been through 3 DACs or so. With a several month period of just using the Clarett DAC as the exception. I never really got along with the Apollo monitor output sound. Mind you I was using the MK I silver version. That's what I'm thinking, I'm going to dump my Drawmer monitor controller and hook up the MOTU 1248 via ADAT (SMUX).. I have two pairs of monitors (Tridents / Dyn's) and I'll run one through the Apollo the other through the MOTU. Then I can compare / contrast, I suppose now I'm on MAC I could even aggregate them and it won't cause an issue as one's just a monitoring device. Cheapest option? Nah, but it's the best of both worlds. Also if was to buy a desk I should have enough I/O, score.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 22, 2018 9:40:36 GMT -6
One option is to buy a standalone DAC. That way you can use whatever interface you want as long as it has SPDIF. Takes monitoring out of the equation. If you have a bunch of funds maybe a Benchmark DAC 3 or something like that. That has been my major solution the past 4-5 years or so. I've been through 3 DACs or so. With a several month period of just using the Clarett DAC as the exception. I never really got along with the Apollo monitor output sound. Mind you I was using the MK I silver version. That's what I'm thinking, I'm going to dump my Drawmer monitor controller and hook up the MOTU 1248 via ADAT (SMUX).. I have two pairs of monitors (Tridents / Dyn's) and I'll run one through the Apollo the other through the MOTU. Then I can compare / contrast, I suppose now I'm on MAC I could even aggregate them and it won't cause an issue as one's just a monitoring device. Cheapest option? Nah, but it's the best of both worlds. Also if was to buy a desk I should have enough I/O, score.! I went this route for a while. Different AD and DA. But then I thought, why do I have a $2000 dongle? (BF) It was adat this and spdif that...lots of moving parts. So I went for the Symphony MkII - and it was great sounding. Could have been happy with that. But I ended up trying out the 16A and ultimately decided I felt more at home with the slightly more aggressive sound of the Motu DA. So, I bought the 828es and was happy with the sound. Never really loved the routing matrix, but I could have totally gotten used to it. Then the Apollo X came out...and that just kind of checked all the boxes for me. One unit, a little tighter/cleaner conversion compared to the Motu (IMO), Console and the ability to track with the plugs. (And it seems more realistic than it used to) All in all - for what I do now (track building, overdubs, vocals, mixing) - it’s the perfect box. If I were doing a major label release, I might want to give a Solaris or Dangerous DA a spin...it would be interesting to hear any differences. Hell, maybe I can get one on loan to compare.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 22, 2018 10:10:53 GMT -6
but does "more aggressive" mean it's more accurate? isn't that what this is all about? which DA is most accurate?
My car's stereo doesn't have the same DA as the Motu/Apollo/Symphony/etc so is what I hear from my interface going to honestly translate to whatever device I listen to music on?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 10:22:12 GMT -6
but does "more aggressive" mean it's more accurate? isn't that what this is all about? which DA is most accurate? My car's stereo doesn't have the same DA as the Motu/Apollo/Symphony/etc so is what I hear from my interface going to honestly translate to whatever device I listen to music on? That's the issue I have with the Apollo, it has excellent definition but the MOTU for me translates effortlessly.. So even though the Apollo is "technically" better, trusting the information is another matter.. The only way to find out is to work with it for a while..
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Post by nick8801 on Sept 22, 2018 10:51:05 GMT -6
I think with any system, it’s just a matter of getting used to it. Nothing out there can represent every other system perfectly. Find the one you like working with, and get good at it. For some people it’s an Apollo, for some a Motu. I’ve been to some pretty incredible studios that are still using pre symphony Apogees and blue digi boxes. It all works if you know how to work with it.
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Post by mythundreamt on Sept 22, 2018 10:53:42 GMT -6
Do you have a song you did on the Blackface and a song you did on the X series Apollo that you could compare? I was referring to the Motu vs. the Apollo x. There's no doubt that the conversion is a step up from the BF. That means that there is no doubt that an x16 will have audibly better conversion than a BF 16. What about against a Symphony MKii 16x16? Can it be said that they are definitely in the same league just different sonic signature? (For AD or DA or both)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 11:33:03 GMT -6
I think with any system, it’s just a matter of getting used to it. Nothing out there can represent every other system perfectly. Find the one you like working with, and get good at it. For some people it’s an Apollo, for some a Motu. I’ve been to some pretty incredible studios that are still using pre symphony Apogees and blue digi boxes. It all works if you know how to work with it. I agree you'll adapt but you don't want to end up constantly compensating for issues.. Had too many monitors with that issue, glad I don't have to deal with it any more.
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Post by indiehouse on Sept 22, 2018 11:59:53 GMT -6
That's what I'm thinking, I'm going to dump my Drawmer monitor controller and hook up the MOTU 1248 via ADAT (SMUX).. I have two pairs of monitors (Tridents / Dyn's) and I'll run one through the Apollo the other through the MOTU. Then I can compare / contrast, I suppose now I'm on MAC I could even aggregate them and it won't cause an issue as one's just a monitoring device. Cheapest option? Nah, but it's the best of both worlds. Also if was to buy a desk I should have enough I/O, score.! I went this route for a while. Different AD and DA. But then I thought, why do I have a $2000 dongle? (BF) It was adat this and spdif that...lots of moving parts. So I went for the Symphony MkII - and it was great sounding. Could have been happy with that. But I ended up trying out the 16A and ultimately decided I felt more at home with the slightly more aggressive sound of the Motu DA. So, I bought the 828es and was happy with the sound. Never really loved the routing matrix, but I could have totally gotten used to it. Then the Apollo X came out...and that just kind of checked all the boxes for me. One unit, a little tighter/cleaner conversion compared to the Motu (IMO), Console and the ability to track with the plugs. (And it seems more realistic than it used to) All in all - for what I do now (track building, overdubs, vocals, mixing) - it’s the perfect box. If I were doing a major label release, I might want to give a Solaris or Dangerous DA a spin...it would be interesting to hear any differences. Hell, maybe I can get one on loan to compare. Do tell if you demo the Solaris. My gut says that one is a keeper. It’s on my short list of must-try’s.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2018 12:34:11 GMT -6
Gotta admit it looks good in a rack:
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 22, 2018 13:01:36 GMT -6
but does "more aggressive" mean it's more accurate? isn't that what this is all about? which DA is most accurate? My car's stereo doesn't have the same DA as the Motu/Apollo/Symphony/etc so is what I hear from my interface going to honestly translate to whatever device I listen to music on? My answer to that would be yes. I think while the Symphony sounds great, it’s soft on top and easy to mix a little bright on.
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Post by NoFilterChuck on Sept 22, 2018 15:41:51 GMT -6
you could say the same about the symphony vs. the svart box tho.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 22, 2018 15:57:07 GMT -6
I think there is a fairly broad bullseye of "accurate" sounding monitoring paths, that most of these things could fall into.
For me it's more a question of how compelling and fun is this thing to listen to, at the same time as being quote-accurate enough. Am I going to want to listen to it for 4 hours without stopping. Is it fun to listen to records on as well as do recording work.
And like someone said, spending the time to "learn" your gear. Then you can trust the gear and your ears.
I really want to hear the Apollo X and the MOTUs. I have always liked my Apollo recorded tracks. Never heard a MOTU in my life but so many of you here have them, which is intriguing.
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Post by mjheck on Sept 22, 2018 16:26:33 GMT -6
My answer to that would be yes. I think while the Symphony sounds great, it’s soft on top and easy to mix a little bright on. Years and years ago I had one of the silver Ensembles, and I think of it similarly. Everything sounded very sweet, but it was a bitch to mix with decent translation. Conversely, from a AD standpoint, I really liked that sweeter tone on acoustic instruments and percussion, so I ran with it as the interface between a Burl AD and a Benchmark DA, using the Burl and the Ensemble as needs dictated. Much like John indicated, it just got to be too many additional decisions and moving parts. I prematurely sold everything for a first generation Apollo, assuming/wishing/hoping the conversion would be similar to the 2192. As has been pointed out, it certainly wasn't in 2011. After a bunch more tail chasing, for the last three plus years I've been using a BLA Modded first generation Apollo Twin for interface and DA, a 2192 for AD and satellites for mixing duties (I almost never track more than two channels at a time anymore). Intellectually, I would love to get to where I'm all digital and Apollo, using UAD and Nebula stuff for color as needed. But it is just not what I want to hear coming in yet. At least not compared to the Silver Bullet > Zulu > 2192 tracking chain I have enjoyed since picking up a Zulu a couple years ago. MJH
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Post by ragan on Sept 22, 2018 16:29:05 GMT -6
When I was comparing the BF Apollo and D Box and Symphony MKII, it wasn't really a frequency response/tone thing, it was a soundstage thing. How real and life-like did the track sound through each box? How well could I make out the decisions the mix-engineer made?
Anyway. All subjective. I think the "pick something that makes you happy, learn it and get on with makin' music" approach is really the only way to go.
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Post by Guitar on Sept 22, 2018 16:33:22 GMT -6
When I was comparing the BF Apollo and D Box and Symphony MKII, it wasn't really a frequency response/tone thing, it was a soundstage thing. How real and life-like did the track sound through each box? How well could I make out the decisions the mix-engineer made? Anyway. All subjective. I think the "pick something that makes you happy, learn it and get on with makin' music" approach is really the only way to go. Those are the exact same criteria that lead me to settle on my Topping DX7s as my main DAC. I can't name them any better than you just did, but I can say the criteria are not always equal on this or that interface being compared. Specs aside as well, it must be said. I'm looking for that rarified air of sound quality where you're sort of in there with it, nothing is hiding from you.
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Post by mythundreamt on Sept 22, 2018 16:40:28 GMT -6
I think the "pick something that makes you happy, learn it and get on with makin' music" approach is really the only way to go. I really do get that - I've been able to do that for every analog piece of gear I own and I know exactly where each one stands. The question is where does one get a BF Apollo 16, new X16 and Symphony 16x16mkii from to try out side by side? Nobody is going to sell me all three letting me send two back, right?
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Post by ragan on Sept 22, 2018 16:57:37 GMT -6
I think the "pick something that makes you happy, learn it and get on with makin' music" approach is really the only way to go. I really do get that - I've been able to do that for every analog piece of gear I own and I know exactly where each one stands. The question is where does one get a BF Apollo 16, new X16 and Symphony 16x16mkii from to try out side by side? Nobody is going to sell me all three letting me send two back, right? Why wouldn't Sweetwater or some other large retailer let you do that?
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kcatthedog
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 22, 2018 17:26:51 GMT -6
Well if you are using ua plug ins, I don't see why you would consider the bf 16 over the new X ? So, really I think you just need to compare the symphony mkii and the new X16 ?
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Post by jtc111 on Sept 22, 2018 17:28:03 GMT -6
The question is where does one get a BF Apollo 16, new X16 and Symphony 16x16mkii from to try out side by side? Nobody is going to sell me all three letting me send two back, right? If you only bought one and decided you didn't like it, you could return it, right? I don't see why the rule would change if you bought three.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 22, 2018 18:35:27 GMT -6
Do that with Sweetwater, send them back and then buy from me.
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Post by ericn on Sept 22, 2018 19:46:27 GMT -6
I think sometimes clarity and mid-forward are the same thing I think they are different but easily confused at a quick glance.
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Post by mythundreamt on Sept 22, 2018 19:52:08 GMT -6
Thanks for all the replies. Firstly, John yes, I will buy from you. Which makes the problem harder: buy three expensive interfaces from a shop and return all three.
Secondly, kcat, you are right - no need to consider the BF when the X is out and unanimously agreed to be a step better. So all I need to know is if I find the X good enough or not against the Symphony (whose reputation is easily good enough), so I can use all my UAD stuff in a one-stop box without concern that my AD/DA is in any way inferior than it could be.
So as everyone else said, I get the Symphony from Sweetwater, the Apollo X16 from my VK rep, and then do a shootout and report back here, send both back and ask our fearless leader to hook me up.
For the record, I once did an extensive shootout a while back between the BF 8 and the Element 88, and the Element’s AD was just ever so noticeably sweeter and musical which added up over many tracks, but output-wise I preferred the “harder” DAs on the Apollo as they seemed more neutral.
Brb calling up VK and Sweetwater. Thanks again.
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Post by ericn on Sept 22, 2018 19:54:41 GMT -6
I think the "pick something that makes you happy, learn it and get on with makin' music" approach is really the only way to go. I really do get that - I've been able to do that for every analog piece of gear I own and I know exactly where each one stands. The question is where does one get a BF Apollo 16, new X16 and Symphony 16x16mkii from to try out side by side? Nobody is going to sell me all three letting me send two back, right? I think to much attention has been payed to the idea that we should strive for the converter that represents the closest thing to reality, when most of us are choosing every other piece of the chain for what it brings to the distortion / color / tone party. Why should the converter be any different? I was talking to a highend consumer designer who insisted that I not out him who admitted that since most of his customers were buying limited bandwidth speakers he was voicing his gear to give the impression of more bass.
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Post by mythundreamt on Sept 22, 2018 20:15:19 GMT -6
I really do get that - I've been able to do that for every analog piece of gear I own and I know exactly where each one stands. The question is where does one get a BF Apollo 16, new X16 and Symphony 16x16mkii from to try out side by side? Nobody is going to sell me all three letting me send two back, right? I think to much attention has been payed to the idea that we should strive for the converter that represents the closest thing to reality, when most of us are choosing every other piece of the chain for what it brings to the distortion / color / tone party. Why should the converter be any different? I was talking to a highend consumer designer who insisted that I not out him who admitted that since most of his customers were buying limited bandwidth speakers he was voicing his gear to give the impression of more bass. Agreed. I’m quite convinced that converters are no different in that you should listen to their sonic signature and get what suits your tastes and maybe even the desired sound. In the aforementioned BF8 vs Apogee Element 88 test, we found that for a modern heavy metal track, we easily preferred the darker AD of the Apollo, even though for everything else we tried the Element won every time.
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