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Post by ragan on Sept 18, 2018 11:45:34 GMT -6
I completely agree. It’s frustrating to think you might spend $2500 or $3000, while knowing that the next model has better conversion. I think they should simply should have put the best conversion all three models and let you pick them by features and design, regardless of price point I think that would have improved their reputation considerably. I don't disagree (why not just for marketing purposes?) but in context the X6 still spec's out better than an Apogee Symphony MK2, so it's definitely not the end of the world.. The new Apollo's seem more controversial than digital vs. analogue threads .. Conversion specs, in my experience, don't tell you all that much. Certainly nothing to make decisions on. I had the SF Apollo, which bested my BLA Signature 003. The BF Apollo bested the SF, handily, and the D Box (DA) bested the BF Apollo handily. The Symphony MKII bested all of it. It wasn't worlds ahead of the BF Apollo (AD wise) or the D Box (DA wise) but it was better. None of these units spec wildly different from one another but they do all sound quite different.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 18, 2018 12:09:58 GMT -6
The video is fun but you never actually hear any of the apollo X sound: drag This event was professionally filmed out the wazoo, expect to see and hear LOTS more from it! Figured: saw Gannon there too ! Will be very interesting to hear the difference (range/timbre) between the pure orchestra room signal and the actual electric instruments (16x vs others).
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 12:20:27 GMT -6
I don't disagree (why not just for marketing purposes?) but in context the X6 still spec's out better than an Apogee Symphony MK2, so it's definitely not the end of the world.. The new Apollo's seem more controversial than digital vs. analogue threads .. Conversion specs, in my experience, don't tell you all that much. Certainly nothing to make decisions on. I had the SF Apollo, which bested my BLA Signature 003. The BF Apollo bested the SF, handily, and the D Box (DA) bested the BF Apollo handily. The Symphony MKII bested all of it. It wasn't worlds ahead of the BF Apollo (AD wise) or the D Box (DA wise) but it was better. None of these units spec wildly different from one another but they do all sound quite different. Wow after 20 years of creating / designing / programming audio equipment I didn't know that.. Thanks for the heads up
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 18, 2018 12:38:29 GMT -6
now now,,, I understood Ragan to be saying its better to use our ears, than our eyes
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Post by ragan on Sept 18, 2018 12:40:12 GMT -6
Conversion specs, in my experience, don't tell you all that much. Certainly nothing to make decisions on. I had the SF Apollo, which bested my BLA Signature 003. The BF Apollo bested the SF, handily, and the D Box (DA) bested the BF Apollo handily. The Symphony MKII bested all of it. It wasn't worlds ahead of the BF Apollo (AD wise) or the D Box (DA wise) but it was better. None of these units spec wildly different from one another but they do all sound quite different. Wow after 20 years of creating / designing / programming audio equipment I didn't know that.. Thanks for the heads up Heheh. Well after several pages of you seeming to draw conclusions about sonics based on specs, I didn’t know you didn’t mean it.
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 18, 2018 12:49:30 GMT -6
and in this corner weighing in at,,,,
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2018 13:21:55 GMT -6
Wow after 20 years of creating / designing / programming audio equipment I didn't know that.. Thanks for the heads up Heheh. Well after several pages of you seeming to draw conclusions about sonics based on specs, I didn’t know you didn’t mean it. I am of course yanking your chain, here's the thing what can you do without the thing in front of you? I don't expect you to remember everyone of my posts but I went into this at great length.. I've seen everything from junction bypass extrapolation to theoretical chipset maximums published as specifications, Svart has never been so right when he said and I paraphrase here "specs are marketing and block diagrams are liars".. I can take these things into work and do an entire breakdown of everything, we have expensive reference testbench equipment that can measure stuff like clocking down to the femto. It takes about a week / maybe two of experimentation finding all the weak points and in reality I barely have the energy to record things so I don't tend to reverse engineer advanced systems in my spare time. I've had 50 "great ideas" about setting up my own company to do my own line of audio equipment, still I barely have the energy to record.. Point being I'm stuck here in the same boat as everyone else, I just want shit to work / sound good and leave my day job where it is (in the day).. Still, in theory the specifications of the Apollo should "mean" it's an excellent unit (if it's anything more than a marketing gimmick).. That doesn't mean when I get it the unit it won't get sent straight back..
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Post by wiz on Sept 19, 2018 1:30:51 GMT -6
Comment from the cheap seats....
There is a lot of talk of how nowadays quality of converters is so close that you can record great sounding audio.....and if you can’t make a great song with this gear...it ain’t the gear......
Immediately followed by agonising about converters and how there is something better...
LOL
Cheers
Wiz
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 19, 2018 2:13:23 GMT -6
I think the conversion talks are about sonic preferences ? While working you naturally mix to the sound you want anyway so arguably we then all accommodate the actual differences in the boxes ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2018 7:09:57 GMT -6
Comment from the cheap seats.... There is a lot of talk of how nowadays quality of converters is so close that you can record great sounding audio.....and if you can’t make a great song with this gear...it ain’t the gear...... Immediately followed by agonising about converters and how there is something better... LOL Cheers Wiz Matter of perspective really, in terms of "quality" for the "most part" all modern conversion is good. Still they all have different circuitry / designs / software / clocking / filters etc. so it's like choosing between Neve, API, Trident, Audient mixing desks or pre-amps.. So far I've had (or tested) an Echo Audiofire 12, Onyx 1640i, Zed-R16 / GSR24, Apogee Duet 2, Audient ID44, Avid MBox Pro, Apogee Symphony MK1, Metric Halo ULN-8, RME UFX++, Lynx Aurora 8(n) and my Apollo has just arrived. Best example is the DUET vs. the Symphony, to me at least they sound NOTHING like each other with the DUET being rather bright in comparison. A lot of these converter shootouts / audio samples are hilarious because you're still playing the sound files through YOUR converters. Remember when they used to advertise Blu-Ray quality on DVD's? Yeah, same thing. Sure end users will be listening through their own stuff and after a song has 20dB's worth of dynamic range mangled by Soundcloud compression then you can start arguing whether it matters or not. STILL, enough of the jibber jabber my new shiny Apollo is here and it's testing time.. Heeeya.!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 9:55:20 GMT -6
Here are my initial impressions:
Setup was very simple, if you're on mac high sierra you'll have to go into security settings and allow the UA driver to initialise so don't worry if it doesn't seem like it's working initially.
The Lynx and MOTU for me at least are the one's to beat, the Lynx is very clear and accurate in a non annoying sort of way (unlike the RME UFX++ I tested). Although as I only have the MOTU here at the moment I'll focus on that. In terms of spatial imaging / depth / clarity it "sounds" like the Apollo has the edge, the confusing part is the reason why.
The Apollo is mid forward, any vocal examples or distorted guitars make it extremely apparent as it's bringing out "esses" or high harmonic distortion. Whilst helping in terms of instrument separation it's also the reason the Apollo sounds somewhat hollow in context.
Not to say it's "lacking" anything as the bass response just like the MOTU kicks like a mule.
All of this is a negative or positive dependant on your point of view, the MOTU is definitely more "natural" with an uncanny ability to translate onto other systems. Still, all the information is there but you have to search for it whereas on the Apollo when playing old hearts by Katatonia the over compressed drums stick out like a saw thumb.
Whilst in terms of "stereo width" I'd say they're on par but you get different versions, I could hear hi-hats a lot more clearly on the Apollo and on the MOTU I had a better feel for guitar transient detail in LCR. Ultimately there's things I like about the Apollo and things I don't but it's early days though with more experimentation needed.
Although I will say clarity isn't always the best route, superior technical specifications doesn't always mean "better" and IF I could have my cake and eat it... I'd combine the MOTU's natural sound and bass response with the Lynx's upper end clarity, throw in drivers / total mix from RME and sprinkle it all in some UA console / plugins..
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2018 10:46:15 GMT -6
I think sometimes clarity and mid-forward are the same thing
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2018 10:50:44 GMT -6
I should say - I think I'm hearing "more" information with the Apollo. That being said, I don't know if it's a "revelation"...I would say - for me - it's objectively a little better.
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Post by guitfiddler on Sept 20, 2018 11:23:45 GMT -6
I should say - I think I'm hearing "more" information with the Apollo. That being said, I don't know if it's a "revelation"...I would say - for me - it's objectively a little better. Do you have a song you did on the Blackface and a song you did on the X series Apollo that you could compare?
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2018 11:27:49 GMT -6
I should say - I think I'm hearing "more" information with the Apollo. That being said, I don't know if it's a "revelation"...I would say - for me - it's objectively a little better. Do you have a song you did on the Blackface and a song you did on the X series Apollo that you could compare? I was referring to the Motu vs. the Apollo x. There's no doubt that the conversion is a step up from the BF.
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Post by sozocaps on Sept 20, 2018 11:59:33 GMT -6
Great perspectives... I'm still on Apogee Mini DAC and A/D 16x ahahah (Great for tracking!!! I LOVE them)... and the 16x D/A (MEH) even though there are better now I will NOT get rid of them, good for headphone mixes and reamping etc... Would like a new DAC for monitoring...
John
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 12:18:46 GMT -6
I think sometimes clarity and mid-forward are the same thing I think people mistake mid forward or volume for clarity, the new Lynx Aurora sounds plenty clear without it being "mid forward". I can't deny it I prefer the MOTU 1248, it's not like I think the Apollo sounds bad, it's a cracking interface and I'd be perfectly happy with it IF I was upgrading from a Focusrite etc. Although it comes down to price and features now, issue being I have plenty of native plugs and outboard I'm happy with.. I don't NEED to go UA.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2018 12:45:09 GMT -6
I believe the 828es I had was a step up spec wise from the 1248? Is that right? I guess this is proof that people hear things differently.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2018 13:07:21 GMT -6
I believe the 828es I had was a step up spec wise from the 1248? Is that right? I guess this is proof that people hear things differently. The 1248 is "supposed" to be their flagship interface, although in terms of specs the only differences I see is the line in's are 1dB DNR down on the ADC (1248) but the THD+N (across the board) is worse on the 828ES.. In terms of hearing things differently, I bet my entire setup is different to yours. I use GIK traps, Dynaudio LYD-48's / Trident HG3's with ATH-R70X headphones, plus my ears have always been really sensitive to upper frequency harmonics.. So digital distortion, harsh transients or mic zing makes my ears go crazy although I struggle with bass more than others. Talking about bass, gotta admit the Apollo is mighty tight in that area.. Cranked up the monitors and it was like being in a massage chair, word.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 20, 2018 14:41:52 GMT -6
👌🏻
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2018 11:12:10 GMT -6
I gotta admit I'm torn, I'm at the point now where I could send it back.. Also like Johnkenn said we're not talking night or day differences between the MOTU or it would of gone back in the first 20 minutes, it is definitely brighter / more mid forward at least but on the other hand bass definition and clarity in some areas is a definite pro..
The only issue I have is will it lead to incorrect mixing decisions? I've had two years with the MOTU and if nothing else it translates beautifully even if I do occasionally miss the odd thing, there's nothing really in the way of guess work.. I do like some of the pre-amp simulations, some of the plugs may come in handy. The Apollo console v2.0 is SOOO much better than the MOTU routing matrix / console..
I might spend a week tracking / mixing with it and see how I get on, I just don't wanna accidentally dent the thing or rack it if I'm going to send it back. *scratches head.!
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2018 12:06:17 GMT -6
I felt similarly...but I don't really hear it as being more mid forward...just more information. The clincher for me was really the workflow with Console and the fact that I think that sounds better than it used to...
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Post by kcatthedog on Sept 21, 2018 12:09:36 GMT -6
Matrix vs console depends how complex you need, if not too complex Console has the edge I think ?
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Post by Guitar on Sept 21, 2018 12:16:08 GMT -6
One option is to buy a standalone DAC. That way you can use whatever interface you want as long as it has SPDIF. Takes monitoring out of the equation.
If you have a bunch of funds maybe a Benchmark DAC 3 or something like that.
That has been my major solution the past 4-5 years or so. I've been through 3 DACs or so.
With a several month period of just using the Clarett DAC as the exception.
I never really got along with the Apollo monitor output sound. Mind you I was using the MK I silver version.
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Post by Johnkenn on Sept 21, 2018 15:42:03 GMT -6
Mind you I was using the MK I silver version.
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