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Post by lcr on Sept 7, 2018 5:39:34 GMT -6
Wouldnt this be the next thing they do? I wonder if they’ll make one. 1073? 312?
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Post by Ward on Sept 7, 2018 7:18:44 GMT -6
Wouldnt this be the next thing they do? I wonder if they’ll make one. 1073? 312? And by make, you mean you wonder which one Behringer (sorry for using the B word) will buy from the Shoe-shine factory and put the KT name on? |
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 7, 2018 7:52:27 GMT -6
Hopefully we'll see a KT-4312 for $500.
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 7, 2018 8:05:11 GMT -6
jcoutu1 that would be tough. You've got four input and four output transformers plus the power transformer. Just that and a case challenge that price point.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Sept 7, 2018 8:09:51 GMT -6
jcoutu1 that would be tough. You've got four input and four output transformers plus the power transformer. Just that and a case challenge that price point. The Pultec for $300 was tough too. One can hope. 😁 |
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Post by lcr on Sept 7, 2018 8:13:57 GMT -6
$549 it is.
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Post by drbill on Sept 7, 2018 11:50:50 GMT -6
jcoutu1 that would be tough. You've got four input and four output transformers plus the power transformer. Just that and a case challenge that price point. Under normal manufacturing constraints, absolutely yes. Under Behringer's cut the market up to gain market share while manufacturing in our Pro Audio City, they could absolutely do it. Easily. Look at the (retail) $300 EQP and the $499 LA2a. Both of which are selling new for less. I'd expect this to happen within the next couple of years. Seems like they are on that road... |
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Post by svart on Sept 7, 2018 11:59:24 GMT -6
I'm actually thinking about that EQP, just as a toy to see if I can squeeze the "pultec trick" out of it. For 249 (ebay prices) it'd be worth the money to try it, and maybe mod it, I suppose.
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 7, 2018 12:04:51 GMT -6
jcoutu1 that would be tough. You've got four input and four output transformers plus the power transformer. Just that and a case challenge that price point. Under normal manufacturing constraints, absolutely yes. Under Behringer's cut the market up to gain market share while manufacturing in our Pro Audio City, they could absolutely do it. Easily. Look at the (retail) $300 EQP and the $499 LA2a. Both of which are selling new for less. I'd expect this to happen within the next couple of years. Seems like they are on that road... I'm sure they can slash the margins and the price. But $500 is tough for a box with eight signal transformers. That's quite a bit more than in an LA2A or EQP. S'all I'm sayin'. |
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Post by drbill on Sept 7, 2018 12:36:57 GMT -6
Well...Midas/Behringer makes them, they don't OEM them from Cinemag or whomever, so $5 apiece? They can do it. That's only $40.
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Post by svart on Sept 7, 2018 12:45:57 GMT -6
Well...Midas/Behringer makes them, they don't OEM them from Cinemag or whomever, so $5 apiece? They can do it. That's only $40. This I'll agree with. Behringer is rich enough to own their own transformer machines and cheap enough to not totally care about the specs. They'll overbuild a transformer just so they'll not have to screen parts, etc. They'll stamp out steel cores made from junk metal, and wind with impure copper, and the majority of customers will never notice a difference. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 7, 2018 13:01:07 GMT -6
You think they could drive it to $5? Maybe. I don't really know. I assumed cost would be $10-15 each.
It costs me as an individual about $150 per channel for a 312 if you include prorating the case and all, and this is with zero labor cost. I'd believe at scale you could hit 1/2 of that, so figure $300 cost to make.
Warm sells theirs for $1200 retail, so I'd guess their sale of the unit is around $500-600. I always kinda figure the manufacturer's slice is about 50% of retail. Figure a 30% gross margin on that, and you wind up at a cost basis of $350-420 or so. Seems to jive with my guess. But who knows for sure, right?
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Post by drbill on Sept 7, 2018 13:32:19 GMT -6
Normal markup to retail is 3-5X's. So..guessing...it costs warm $240-300 to make. And they have to buy OEM transformers. Behringer could easily hit $500. But I'm guessing they would launch at $700 and drop down to $500 over time. Who knows.
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Post by svart on Sept 7, 2018 13:37:59 GMT -6
You think they could drive it to $5? Maybe. I don't really know. I assumed cost would be $10-15 each. It costs me as an individual about $150 per channel for a 312 if you include prorating the case and all, and this is with zero labor cost. I'd believe at scale you could hit 1/2 of that, so figure $300 cost to make. Warm sells theirs for $1200 retail, so I'd guess their sale of the unit is around $500-600. I always kinda figure the manufacturer's slice is about 50% of retail. Figure a 30% gross margin on that, and you wind up at a cost basis of $350-420 or so. Seems to jive with my guess. But who knows for sure, right? Typically sale price is 3x BOM+labor costs. Overhead eats into this a lot for most companies, but we don't know anything about their overhead but can assume that gross margin is 30-50% for most companies like this. Transformers aren't *hard* to manufacture.. they're hard to manufacture well. Most costs for higher end companies like Cinemag or Lundahl would be raw materials and manual labor. We can assume big B is using chinese labor at 1/10th the cost, and bargain basement recycled materials.. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Sept 7, 2018 13:45:42 GMT -6
Retail at 3x cost of goods sold is almost the same as what I was using. If you do 50% retail markup, and the manufacturer at 30% GM, that's 2.85 times cogs. So yeah, figure Warms around $400 cost on their 312. For a $500 retail price point they'd have to be manufacturing the unit at $125. That seems difficult to me, but who knows?
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Post by drbill on Sept 7, 2018 15:00:52 GMT -6
At the current Behringer prices for Pro Audio, I'd be surprised they are making their full margin. Seems like they are on a mission to undercut the low end clone market.
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Post by pope on Sept 8, 2018 5:08:31 GMT -6
Are you guys talking about the "legendary/ classic" MIDAS transformers?  |
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Post by subspace on Sept 8, 2018 9:10:21 GMT -6
Chinese scrap metal transformers? Reminds me of some particular post war English/German manufacturers who were striving for transparency but due to scrap material at hand and technology available fell short and ended up with interesting sounding instead.
The Klark-Teknik BCM-KT is gonna rule, will make a great side-car to my KT-4000G+.
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