|
Post by chessparov on Aug 28, 2018 16:37:15 GMT -6
The root of this question, started in my own frustation, in self-recording my own vocals. Not to sound "whatever" about myself, the fact of the matter is that I'm a much better singer live, vs. when I record in front of the computer. I have some ideas, regarding this challenge, to close in this somewhat inscrutable Gap-73 -ahem-gap. But... Like the classic "Philosophy Professor meets the Zen Master" parable, Grasshopper will keep his "cup empty" (for now anyway!), to hear some of that RealGear distilled wisdom. (along with "go to a real studio!") Thanks in advance, for your responses. Chris
|
|
|
Post by wiz on Aug 28, 2018 16:45:57 GMT -6
Good headphone mix, or no headphones and sing in front of monitors.
Sing at the time of day you feel best.
Run the "movie" in your head.
Give yourself time to "learn" the song, by that I mean, if you are writing it yourself and not covering it. Takes a while to develop the best out of you and the song.
And as always with me, maximum of 3 passes and if It aint in the can, I aint gonna get it that day.
Cheers
Wiz
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 16:50:59 GMT -6
What makes it flow like water for me is getting a glimpse of a production quality vocal, if I can hear compression I'll dig into it more or pull away when things get too hot.. I also send a cue mix to a verb / delay channel fed through headphones. I won't record verb or delay because 9 / 10 times I'll change the blend ratio but I have no issues tracking with a fair amount of comp and EQ. It's suprising how much better things can sound when you're not guessing the end result.. For example it's awesome when you get up close to the mic on intimate passages and see how the verb / comp reacts to specific components like proximity, especially when I might want a more "ethereal" sounding vocal.. It's a quasi-musical relation where I feed off the sound and it feeds off me..! If for whatever reason I don't have the above option, I tend to go as dry as possible.. Trying to automate verbs / delays etc. after the fact is "do-able" I suppose but a PITA because the vocalist isn't using his / her dynamic range and harmonics to match the effects. Finally, practice over and over.. Studio recording is nothing like singing live or sat down with an acoustic messing about, it's a skillset within itself.
I've got it on take 1 and sometimes it's take 40, it just depends on the day (or the amount of practice I put into the song )..
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 28, 2018 17:30:17 GMT -6
Thanks guys.
"Skillset within itself", no truer words said! Chris
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 28, 2018 17:40:30 GMT -6
I'm generally with wiz on the 3-takes-and-I'm-done approach, and it's how I work most of the time. But sometimes when you're the one engineering, it can get really hard to take off the engineer hat and put on the artist hat. (Wiz switches hats as well as anybody I've heard.) In the cases where hat-switching is difficult, I've actually found it helpful on occasion to just loop the whole song and have Logic record take after take after take, each time creating a new track automatically. Once I hit a performance I really dig, I stop there. Doing it that way gives me a chance to just get in the flow of singing, and not thinking about the engineering side. I might even experiment with a different melodic idea on a couple takes just to see where it goes. It becomes pretty evident where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, but then you just go back 2-3 takes from there, and there's usually something good.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2018 18:12:47 GMT -6
I'm generally with wiz on the 3-takes-and-I'm-done approach, and it's how I work most of the time. But sometimes when you're the one engineering, it can get really hard to take off the engineer hat and put on the artist hat. (Wiz switches hats as well as anybody I've heard.) In the cases where hat-switching is difficult, I've actually found it helpful on occasion to just loop the whole song and have Logic record take after take after take, each time creating a new track automatically. Once I hit a performance I really dig, I stop there. Doing it that way gives me a chance to just get in the flow of singing, and not thinking about the engineering side. I might even experiment with a different melodic idea on a couple takes just to see where it goes. It becomes pretty evident where the law of diminishing returns kicks in, but then you just go back 2-3 takes from there, and there's usually something good.
Issue I've found going solo is you're like a band in a box trying to figure out the job of four people and also correcting all their mistakes, so I spend a lot of time re-doing harmonies and on the fly re-arrangement of the song to get it flowing properly.
When you have one job (that's to sing) 99.9% of the time I can walk in (after decent amounts of practice) and nail it, in a home recording setup I find myself re-iterating a lot and I just mused through a thread of "self recorded" albums further instilling there's a reason for it.
It's the benefit and the curse of home recording, chances are you can get it better than walking into a studio the issue being knowing when to stop. Also I don't rely on autotune, neither do I comp..
I must of heard one in a hundred singers that didn't need some extensive comp'ing or "tuning" to get a reliable take in this over analytical world, also it depends on standards.. I try to bank on the "flawless" side whether that's a good thing or not is up for debate.
Also failure is part of the package, it's how you learn / improve.. Giving up too easily is IMO contradictory to progress, you wouldn't do it if you're in a studio on a time crunch so why do it when you're recording? Learning not only how to sing, but how you should sing in a studio is a means of refinement if you have basic talent.
You don't do that by not practicing?! Sure, some days it just doesn't work and that's it but for the rest:
Never stop, never stopping.!
P.S I believe (I'm paraphrasing heavily here) when Queen / Freddie was practicing singing in higher octaves for the studio, Brian referred to him as a "bleeting sheep".. It happens to the best of us.
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 28, 2018 18:27:29 GMT -6
It can be tough to engineer and sing, its too easy to phone it in.. The take can be technically correct, in pitch, on time, but that's not enough. No gear is going to fix it, I have to tap into that extra thing. Usually helps to warm up vocals for 30 minutes.. scales, then maybe sing along to some technical vocal songs, open up the top end.
|
|
|
Post by jtc111 on Aug 28, 2018 21:35:33 GMT -6
The root of this question, started in my own frustation, in self-recording my own vocals. Not to sound "whatever" about myself, the fact of the matter is that I'm a much better singer live, vs. when I record in front of the computer. We're all better live because we don't have to play back our mistakes over and over again. Recording oneself in the studio can be a challenge. A couple of things that help me sing better is to keep the mic up a little so I'm forced to tilt my head slightly up and keep my throat open. I usually tape a lyrics sheet in front of me somewhere so there's neither hesitation nor doubt about what's coming next (I'm prone to forgetting a lyric now and again). I'll sit for scratch vox but for the real track I have to stand. In this day of wireless keyboards and mice, it helps to have a tall table at hand so you don't have to constantly bend over to use them every time you need to stop and go. Lastly, set it up so you can do 3-4 takes in a row without much stopping. When you're done recording those, see what kind of composite track you can put together with what you have. I usually find I've gotten what I need to get somewhere on those tracks, and if not, there won't be much to punch in at the end. That's how I do it. YMMV Hope that's helpful.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 0:33:49 GMT -6
jtc, very helpful. Thanks again to everyone for the insightful comments. BTW I'm used to having "perfect pitch" when singing live, but when I use a LDC close up, I cringe a little anticipating the breath noises I'll want to minimize/delete. I posted some vocal clips, on a different website. Between the breath anxiety, and a severe allergy going on-affecting my breathing (due to the Trabuco Canyon Fire)... It really sounded "phoned in" and not up to par.
Another factor that lifts the live performances, is typically the presence of at least a few strong singers, listening in the audience. Last night, when I sang at the White House (Laguna Beach), that Monday Open Mic is hosted by Local Legend...Poul Pederson of The Missiles of October. Poul has "perfect pitch" singing BTW and a superb Tenor voice. No coincidence I'm "on my toes" when he's listening!
If I "know" strong singers are there, it helps pull the best I'm (currently) capable of. (same for my chess-vs. strong masters or better-I play better!)
I suppose all this is better than the opposite. Those singers, who are struggling to have their live performances, approach their "doctored" recorded ones!
Hmm.., Helps me understand better how Smokey Robinson produced all those great records. Meaning if you were performing in the studio, for a great Producer-who also can sing great, that can only help elevate the end result.
Chris
|
|
|
Post by jeremygillespie on Aug 29, 2018 6:58:18 GMT -6
Sounds like you should have somebody there when you’re singing to help with the engineering side of things. If it could be somebody you trust that can give you good feedback and produce you - then all the better. Music isn’t supposed to be made in isolation.
|
|
|
Post by svart on Aug 29, 2018 7:14:29 GMT -6
When recording others, the best option is to track them while they're doing warm up run-throughs. You usually get the best feeling performances when the singer isn't worried about getting everything perfect.. Which makes it more perfect.
For doing yourself? That's a tough one. All I can say is practice heavily and do it a lot in front of others to get the jitters out. Perhaps using emotions to do it. If it's an angry song, do it while you're angry, etc..
|
|
|
Post by adamjbrass on Aug 29, 2018 8:19:39 GMT -6
Coffee
|
|
|
Post by drbill on Aug 29, 2018 10:24:27 GMT -6
Sounds like you should have somebody there when you’re singing to help with the engineering side of things. If it could be somebody you trust that can give you good feedback and produce you - then all the better. ^^^^ That's it exactly. Music is a team sport. I could go elaborate and give you a couple dozen + really good reasons as to why not to record yourself, but it's a waste of time and energy. If you've recorded vocals with a trusted producer / engineer, you already know. If you haven't, you should try it once or a dozen times. There is no substitute. And yes, the RIGHT person is key. I prefer to have the artist alone in the studio with myself, no other distractions or band members. And no entourage. And also no engineer. If the studio has an engineer, I'll have him/her set things up and then go on a permanent break. Sometimes I'll want the artist in the CR with me. Other times, out in the "studio" proper. Yes, you CAN record vocals yourself. You can even get really good vocals recorded yourself. But in my experience you can very, very rarely transcend beyond a nuts and bolts vocal and get inspired brilliance when sitting in a room by yourself - engineering and producing your own vocal. Getting that kind of brilliance is much easier achieved in a very special place that requires someone else with focused energy and vision pushing buttons, solving problems and giving feedback / ideas. Someone that can build a fantasy/surreal environment - whether it requires technical, artistic, mood, beverage, etc. - for the specific song, and specific artist. Sometimes it means getting out of the $200hr studio or personal bedroom and walking down to the local pub for a drink with a trusted confidant. Sometimes it means turning off all the lights and meditating. Sometimes it requires "surprise". All of which are hard to do by yourself. When the magic is achieved, then coming back in and killing it in one take. And if done right with the right raw talent - it's often a brilliant take. As a producer, you have to build a safe environment for the artist to perform in. You can't do that yourself. The OP did ask for "inspired" right? My $0.02 devalued to $0.00002576 for streaming.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 10:34:17 GMT -6
Brilliant post Dr. Bill! You and Jeremy are completely right, certainly regarding me. I also appreciate all the excellent ideas, in the other posts. Looks like I'm not another Todd Rundgren, but that's OK!
At least in the meantime, I can still use self recording to better prepare live or studio performances,
Thanks again, everyone. Chris
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Aug 29, 2018 11:11:11 GMT -6
A gentle warning about recording yourself: If the mic is wrong, and you aren't singing at your best just remember, when you listen back... that's not the real you. I struggle with this, but it really hit home when I visited my friend 2 weeks ago. He has a Rode NTA1 and a studio projects C1, neither are going to deliver world class sound. For fun I ran the NT1A through a Rupert 511 & 73 EQ, it did give it a better top and warmer bottom. So my friend, my old vocalist, he says he can't sing anymore, he just 'lost it' a few years ago and has given up. As the night moves along he starts showing me the songs he wrote on the DAW, then he happily shows me some vocal ideas and sings a few bars. His voice is fine, actually sounds as perfect as ever, killer vibrato, incredibly airy overtones and fills the room. I'm like, "record that right now!"... So in 30 seconds he grabs the headphones, and starts to sing into the mic. His pitch is perfect, but no airy top, no overtones, the vibrato sounds forced and the whole thing was just no good. It was horrible actually, we didn't even listen back. Analyzing what happened I could see he was singing with much less volume, and really holding back. Not even close to how he sings in real life. After talking a bit, he says he worries people might hear him singing and think about what a bad singer he is, if he sings too loud without the monitors on. I understand that one lol. Luckily I was there to witness what was going on so I can see some solutions.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 12:12:05 GMT -6
Very insightful! Chris
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 29, 2018 14:09:22 GMT -6
Just do it a lot.
That's really the only advice that I have.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 14:35:42 GMT -6
Just recording?
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 29, 2018 14:41:15 GMT -6
Just recording? In this case, yes. You need to record yourself singing A LOT. After some time, you will inevitably have insight and adjustment. I wonder if part of it is just that you're not used to hearing a recording of yourself, but are very used to hearing yourself live. That would be one of the adjustments you would need to make. I had a reverse-path and have had to get used to hearing myself live! Obviously having person #2 in the room adds to the live feel, quite a bit, but I'm not sure if that was implied in your question or not. I also tend to perform more energetically when there's some person across a glass wall telling me "the tape is rolling now." Most of the time though I am hacking away in this basement alone, so I'm focused on making that as good as it can be. I'm sort of training myself to do what person #2 would do, but I "do it to myself."
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 14:59:01 GMT -6
I'm used to hearing myself, on the occasionally (somewhat inspired) recorded performance. When appropriate, singing "to the monitors", I can tell already (ala Bono/Paul Rodgers/etc.) is an excellent way to go-If no band is present. FWIW I was involved with a lot of acapella singing, 12+ years total with the Barbershop Harmony Society. A number of top championship singers wanted me to train for an eventual "International" (World Championship). They wanted me to switch to "Baritone", instead of my usual 2nd Tenor "Lead". A "Lead" who has the classic Irish Tenor tone is favored, and my voice doesn't have enough cut/edge (in their opinion). So I was used to being evaluated by World Champion acapella singers, like the (incredible!) Bass in Nightlife (Champs-1996) Brett Littlefield, while he was Director of my Barbershop Chorus (Irvine). Chris
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Aug 29, 2018 15:07:07 GMT -6
I’ve seen a couple of producers have folks sing to specific people, use overly emphasized hand gestures or emote with the face and so on.
I saw Sylvia Massy tell someone once to “be Italian” with their gestures and clench their fists.
Whatever you’re doing technically or otherwise you gotta feel it.
|
|
|
Post by chessparov on Aug 29, 2018 15:29:27 GMT -6
Although the top South OC Solo singer/songwriter (Jason Feddy), has a high opinion of my voice... As a mentor for me, he advised me to focus on becoming a better and better "storyteller" (especially because I'm so verbal to begin with!). So I decided to to a deep study of a great storyteller AKA Frank Sinatra. My "day job" BTW is teaching/training others in chess. So a lot of the self teaching approach, is the same as how I self trained to become a chess master. Also like in golf, with the importance of "Putt" and "Drive", I think of self recording as the "Putt" and live performance/rehearsal as the "Drive"-When you can really lay it out. I also mix in comedy onstage-sometimes intentionally!
I spent time recently studying Al Jolson, and found it fascinating that he was SO electric in a live theater setting, but could act "so wooden" at times onscreen. Chris
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 29, 2018 15:36:59 GMT -6
Just recording? They say practice makes perfect ..
To expand on my previous point, the worst thing you can do is put pressure on yourself to get it right within a limited time scale when you're practicing. When I was more concerned about octave range / timing / expression etc. I had issues with breathing regulation and struggled a lot.
I'm an instrumentalist by nature, I trained up to grade 8 in piano, saxophone, violin, drums, guitar (acoustic and electric) and I picked up bass along the way.. I'm not a "natural" singer, I can keep in tune but the rest I had to learn the hard way.
Depending on how serious you are about singing you'll have to make a lot of sacrifices or at least adapt, smoking (even e-cigs), drinking and lack of exercise are all major issues.. Exercise affects my vocal stamina, drinking causes discomfort when singing and smoking has a tendancy to close up my throat.. Trying to have a full three octave range whilst doing these things is nigh on impossible for me, I'm trying to quit smoking again but anything above an octave and a half requires a lot of pressure from my diaphragm and I have to be careful or I could damage my voice box.
I also have a lot more tuning issues..
When I didn't smoke etc. I could easily sing a song 40 times over with near enough pin point accuracy.. Now I'd be lucky to get through a song.!
|
|
|
Post by b1 on Aug 29, 2018 19:05:21 GMT -6
When recording others, the best option is to track them while they're doing warm up run-throughs. You usually get the best feeling performances when the singer isn't worried about getting everything perfect.. Which makes it more perfect. For doing yourself? That's a tough one. All I can say is practice heavily and do it a lot in front of others to get the jitters out. Perhaps using emotions to do it. If it's an angry song, do it while you're angry, etc.. I agree. The best feeling stuff I've done was in the first couple of takes. Those were the ones with the stuff that was extremely difficult to reproduce; and were the ones to be built upon. Some of my better ones were when I had the most basic idea for a new song. Just got behind the mic and went wherever it went. Those were the ones that propelled the song.
I remember my wife & I were talking about a style for BU vox and she did an operatic style vocal in the middle of the kitchen without a way to capture it.. It was glorious and could never be reproduced without missing something here or there. I learned to never mess around again without her being near a mic, but not let her know she was being recorded.. I'll never forget that take that will never be heard
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 29, 2018 19:15:31 GMT -6
I tend to record my vocals with no written lyrics, other than maybe a starting line, but that's more of a method of songwriting for me.
In poetry or whatever they call it "free writing" it's something I picked up from a good college teacher.
|
|