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Post by M57 on Aug 19, 2018 17:16:38 GMT -6
So we all know that boosting and cutting the same frequency simultaneously on a Pultec EQ creates a unique curve, but wouldn't it be nice to see it?
Yes, I fully expect a few of you to chastise me for even asking. I should be using my ears, right? Well, I do. Hell, I close my eyes even when adjusting virtual knobs or sliders on any virtual equalizer. But that doesn't mean I'm not curious to "see" what I'm doing to the signal. I mean, why do companies even bother to do it with standard EQs? It can't be that hard. It could be toggled optionally so the purists don't get offended. Come to think of it, I'd really like to be able to attenuate and shift frequency at the same time. I could do that with a graphic display.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 19, 2018 19:12:13 GMT -6
So we all know that boosting and cutting the same frequency simultaneously on a Pultec EQ creates a unique curve, but wouldn't it be nice to see it? Yes, I fully expect a few of you to chastise me for even asking. I should be using my ears, right? Well, I do. Hell, I close my eyes even when adjusting virtual knobs or sliders on any virtual equalizer. But that doesn't mean I'm not curious to "see" what I'm doing to the signal. I mean, why do companies even bother to do it with standard EQs? It can't be that hard. It could be toggled optionally so the purists don't get offended. Come to think of it, I'd really like to be able to attenuate and shift frequency at the same time. I could do that with a graphic display. Fab-Filter Pro-Q2
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Post by pope on Aug 20, 2018 4:05:46 GMT -6
Almost every parametric EQ plugin can do that pultec "trick" that everyone is raving about. Am I missing something?
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Post by M57 on Aug 20, 2018 4:16:31 GMT -6
Almost every parametric EQ plugin can do that pultec "trick" that everyone is raving about. Am I missing something? How? I've seen people emulate the curve with a standard parametric, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same. When I work with mine it sculpts frequencies unlike any other EQ I've worked with. The only pultec I have is Logic's, which is just a GUI of the original. Waves' looks the same to me. I also have the Slate bundle so I feel like I have enough choices where EQ's are concerned. I didn't know that FabFilter could do the pultec thing, but $179 for a plugin seems a bit expensive if I'm buying it just for the GUI capability, which I want, but technically don't need.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Aug 20, 2018 5:58:25 GMT -6
DMG EQuilibrium has the Pultec Cut and Boost shelves with a nice GUI.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 20, 2018 10:35:14 GMT -6
You can certainly make the curves with a parametric, but you are fighting the inherent bias of what the controls on a Pultec 'appear' to do. When you look at a Pultec with any transfer function tests, you find the knobs don't do a lot until you've moved them a lot. Each boost or cut knob does not do equivalent amounts as the others, none of them relate in any visual sense.
It's also kinda just like the hardware Pultec debate; none of the copies sound like a real one. So why would a parametric emulation? It wouldn't. It then raises the question, is your Pultec good enough? Or are you better off saving parametric clone presets? I don't know the answer.
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Post by M57 on Aug 20, 2018 13:28:40 GMT -6
You can certainly make the curves with a parametric, but you are fighting the inherent bias of what the controls on a Pultec 'appear' to do. When you look at a Pultec with any transfer function tests, you find the knobs don't do a lot until you've moved them a lot. Each boost or cut knob does not do equivalent amounts as the others, none of them relate in any visual sense. My understanding is that the curves for the "same frequencies" on a Pultec (a misnomer to be sure) are not "normal." I.e. their individual "bell" curves are skewed to start, and working in concert they create curves that simply can't be achieved with a standard parametric EQ - though I suppose it might be possible to get close using combinations of 3 or 4 different filters. It just seems to me that it shouldn't be all that hard to quantify what's going on and use the now standard GUI for manipulating it. It almost makes me wonder if the target customers of plugin Pultecs are hardware nerds that just need to see its iconic facade in order to feel that old-school pultecy goodness.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 20, 2018 14:16:26 GMT -6
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Post by M57 on Aug 20, 2018 14:59:52 GMT -6
Yeah, I remember seeing this post a year or so ago. Awesome thread - but I would still LOVE to be able see those curves. Will it affect the way I set the knobs? Not necessarily, because I'm still likely to do it with my eyes closed, but for me SEEING can often be confirmation of what I'm hearing. Also, and again, how cool would it be to grab a node and be able to shift frequency and amplitude simultaneously?
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Post by EmRR on Aug 20, 2018 15:15:43 GMT -6
I'm honestly more curious why more cloners/adapters haven't separated the low frequencies for cut and boost, so they can be put in different places, like the Lolo-M drawing. It's just another switch to do it. Set them the same if you want them to act original. It's only one more switch to make the upper bell act like a high shelf instead. Etc etc etc.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 20, 2018 19:26:48 GMT -6
So we all know that boosting and cutting the same frequency simultaneously on a Pultec EQ creates a unique curve, but wouldn't it be nice to see it? Yes, I fully expect a few of you to chastise me for even asking. I should be using my ears, right? Well, I do. Hell, I close my eyes even when adjusting virtual knobs or sliders on any virtual equalizer. But that doesn't mean I'm not curious to "see" what I'm doing to the signal. I mean, why do companies even bother to do it with standard EQs? It can't be that hard. It could be toggled optionally so the purists don't get offended. Come to think of it, I'd really like to be able to attenuate and shift frequency at the same time. I could do that with a graphic display. Why should they? the original hardware has no such UI and it never stopped anyone from getting great results.
In most cases such a display is a needless distraction - a red herring if you will.
Why do companies do it with "standardf" EQ? Because they're catering to amateurs who need bells and whistles, and who do not have well developed ears (and probably never will if they continue to rely on visual cues.)
It's a marketing thing, not an audio engineering thing.
Ears, not eyes. Listen, don't "think".
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 20, 2018 19:33:17 GMT -6
Yeah, I remember seeing this post a year or so ago. Awesome thread - but I would still LOVE to be able see those curves. Will it affect the way I set the knobs? Not necessarily, because I'm still likely to do it with my eyes closed, but for me SEEING can often be confirmation of what I'm hearing. Also, and again, how cool would it be to grab a node and be able to shift frequency and amplitude simultaneously? Then use an analyzer plugin/program after the fact to see what you've done. Don't let a readout distract you while you're actually working.
Me, I don't give a damn what an EQ curve looks like on an analyzer as long as it sounds "good" within the context of what I want from the music.
Analyzers are great when I'm fixing broken gear (or if I was a gear designer). When I'm mixing they're a distraction at best and an annoyance at worst.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Aug 20, 2018 19:34:19 GMT -6
I'm honestly more curious why more cloners/adapters haven't separated the low frequencies for cut and boost, so they can be put in different places, like the Lolo-M drawing. It's just another switch to do it. Set them the same if you want them to act original. It's only one more switch to make the upper bell act like a high shelf instead. Etc etc etc. DIYRE does this. FWIW. ...not really a clone either I guess, but similar idea anyway.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 20, 2018 20:56:00 GMT -6
I'm honestly more curious why more cloners/adapters haven't separated the low frequencies for cut and boost, so they can be put in different places, like the Lolo-M drawing. It's just another switch to do it. Set them the same if you want them to act original. It's only one more switch to make the upper bell act like a high shelf instead. Etc etc etc. DIYRE does this. FWIW. ...not really a clone either I guess, but similar idea anyway. So it does. I have a hard time calling the low freq count pieces like that anything more than 'Pultec Lite' or something. Haven't heard one, might be cool.
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Post by christopher on Aug 21, 2018 0:54:00 GMT -6
Reaper has noise and sinewave sweep generators. I like the free blue cat analyzer. Then any gear that is a mystery I run the generators and watch, just to calibrate and check wtf is going on??? I did this once to see the shape of the shelves on my board, how many dB they boost and where the cutoff frequency is so I could try and mimic with plugins. It helped. Also I swore my board had some extra lows and highs when I ran stuff through, but it measured incredibly flat. That was surprising- some things are audible but hard or maybe near impossible to measure. Another thing you can see if when settings are flat but not bypassed, what is the curve? not always flat.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2018 6:53:24 GMT -6
Why don’t most Pultec plugins have a graphic display of the curve ? Because they know for most of the customers are buying for the look and feel that they are using the real deal, even if they have no idea what a real Pultec sounds like. They are selling the experience.
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Post by M57 on Aug 21, 2018 7:43:40 GMT -6
Why don’t most Pultec plugins have a graphic display of the curve ? Because they know for most of the customers are buying for the look and feel that they are using the real deal, even if they have no idea what a real Pultec sounds like. They are selling the experience. Yes, that was one of my theories, but I still that maintain moving a node on a graph with a mouse/trackpad beats the hell out of NOT being able to turn multiple knobs simultaneously. Not to mention how nice it would be to be able to slide through a range of frequencies as EmRR mentioned with the ability to select separate frequencies for cut and boost. ericn What you're saying doesn't make sense to me. I have no idea what a real Pultec sounds like, so I'm one of those people. so why would I care about look and feel any more than someone who knows what they feel like? If anything I could care less. I know WHAT it does and I want the Pultec sound and Pultec functionality++. A simple optional drop-down menu for a graphic display would please everyone, no? Geez, Sometimes I wish every meter some of you hardcore listen-only guys have would break so you had to use your ears for EVERYTHING. Yeah, I get it. Ears are more important than meters, but meters teach me things, reinforce understanding, help me maintain continuity in my mixes. My ears are variable from hour to hour. I dunno - fatigue, ear-wax, bad hair.. Well, not really; I'm practically bald.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2018 8:02:18 GMT -6
Why don’t most Pultec plugins have a graphic display of the curve ? Because they know for most of the customers are buying for the look and feel that they are using the real deal, even if they have no idea what a real Pultec sounds like. They are selling the experience. Yes, that was one of my theories, but I still that maintain moving a node on a graph with a mouse/trackpad beats the hell out of NOT being able to turn multiple knobs simultaneously. Not to mention how nice it would be to be able to slide through a range of frequencies as EmRR mentioned with the ability to select separate frequencies for cut and boost. ericn What you're saying doesn't make sense to me. I have no idea what a real Pultec sounds like, so I'm one of those people. so why would I care about look and feel any more than someone who knows what they feel like? If anything I could care less. I know WHAT it does and I want the Pultec sound and Pultec functionality++. A simple optional drop-down menu for a graphic display would please everyone, no? Geez, Sometimes I wish every meter some of you hardcore listen-only guys have would break so you had to use your ears for EVERYTHING. Yeah, I get it. Ears are more important than meters, but meters teach me things, reinforce understanding, help me maintain continuity in my mixes. My ears are variable from hour to hour. I dunno - fatigue, ear-wax, bad hair.. Well, not really; I'm practically bald. Pro Audio is no longer proaudio it’s about consumers. Manufacturers sell the look and the myth today more than they sell real tools. If I get you thinking because my GUI looks like a Pultec and you feel like your behind a real Pultec emotionally your more likely to buy my LA2, 1176 or Fairchild. Note how the big companies are more likely to duplicate the front panel and the small companies are more likely to give you a more useful display and controls. It’s all about what sells.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 21, 2018 8:03:32 GMT -6
You paint a good picture of the orientation difference between original experience and latecomer with fresh point of view.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2018 9:20:51 GMT -6
You paint a good picture of the orientation difference between original experience and latecomer with fresh point of view. Doug it’s called getting old! That an understanding that the manufacture of audio equipment and software has always been a commercial venture not simply to fulfill our wants. It’s just like when you reminded everyone the LA2 was designed for broadcast because at the time that’s where the real money was😎
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Post by EmRR on Aug 21, 2018 9:37:34 GMT -6
I remember an old broadcast guy railing about what junk all the old BA-6A's/26U's/SA-39's were compared to that station with the LA-2A, they had the hottest flatlined signal. Which was never about it sounding good, it was about maximizing broadcast coverage within legal power rating.
Pultec were $50 apiece because no one wanted that old big crap that didn't do much. blah blah blah
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Aug 21, 2018 9:46:43 GMT -6
I remember an old broadcast guy railing about what junk all the old BA-6A's/26U's/SA-39's were compared to that station with the LA-2A, they had the hottest flatlined signal. Pultec were $50 apiece because no one wanted that old big crap that didn't do much. blah blah blah I remember the first 2 studios I ever got to work in where just a Ampex 440-8 a 440-2 track a pair of Ampex mixers and a handful of mics. The third place was pretty much the same but had an LA 2 and some weird SS EQ that had been pulled from the air chain of the radio station that owned the studio. Man everything sounded great but I would go home and think I sure loved all the features of my Teac 70-8 model 5 and DBX 166’s !
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Post by christopher on Aug 21, 2018 13:07:53 GMT -6
"Geez, Sometimes I wish every meter some of you hardcore listen-only guys have would break so you had to use your ears for EVERYTHING. Yeah, I get it. Ears are more important than meters, but meters teach me things, reinforce understanding, help me maintain continuity in my mixes." I use meters all the time, spectrum analyzers and etc. Constantly. There is a learning curve to it though, at first its all about seeing and coming up with ideas based on what we see. That always causes really dumb decisions like "Oh crap.. not enough highs, boost the highs! And "way too quiet, need more limiter ". I see the results of that all the time, everywhere. But often the reason there's not enough highs is because we don't realize while we were opening the plugins and making our moves the song kept playing and now we are at the part of the song that's supposed to be quieter and supposed to be darker. It took me a long time to study tons of reference tracks before the analyzers started to make sense... We have to understand how quiet dark stuff can look too, not just the polished loudest stuff. Sadly all this was just a lot of wasted time to confirm what I already knew; if it sounds good it is good. Duh! I agree analyzers are helpful on EQ's, for spotting noise or weird stuff quickly, the exact fundamental frequency etc. But I don't really look at them. Does that make sense?
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Post by EmRR on Aug 21, 2018 13:45:17 GMT -6
I still that maintain moving a node on a graph with a mouse/trackpad beats the hell out of NOT being able to turn multiple knobs simultaneously. GUI solutions to ergonomic deficiencies with software versus hardware. We need LOTS of those solutions. They are hard to envision, in all the ways people might or might not use them. Many would be accidents. Many of the two knob things you'd want to do wouldn't work in a GUI either, as they are usually unrelated functions. Is automation better? It takes longer to hear what you think you want to hear, but then it's permanent. Is there ANY recorder made anymore that will let you punch one track in and out while others are record enabled and rolling, LIKE AN ACTUAL TAPE MACHINE? Or an ADAT!!?!?! (don't even ask why, if you don't know, think about it) How much we've lost, how much we've gained. I still counter we shouldn't lose so much as we do on the path of 'progress'.
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Post by svart on Aug 21, 2018 14:18:16 GMT -6
Just print this out and tape it above your pultec. BOOM.
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