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Post by stormymondays on Aug 14, 2018 4:46:11 GMT -6
I have 3 pres with variable input impedance and while it's easy enough to fiddle with it and see what sounds good, I'd like to understand the technical side.
Tree Audio The Branch II: it has a variable switch that "Controls input impedance of input transformer, selectable between 37.5 Ohms, 150 Ohms or 600 Ohms, nominal input for line input is 150 Ohms". The manual recommends 150 ohm as the default for every use (mic, line, DI). Switching the input impedance changes the gain too.
Warm Audio Tone Beast: it has a "Tone" switch that drops input impedance from 600 Ohm to 150 Ohm and raises gain by 6dB by changing the turns ratio of the transformer. Strangely enough the manual recommends the 150 Ohm setting for ribbon mics. There's a long explanation about what it does in the manual. A while ago I asked Warm Audio about this and they said "The true impedances of the mic pre are 10 times the transformer impedance, so the TB12 truly is 1500 and 6000 ohms, not 150 and 600."
Golden Age Pre73 MkIII: it has a Low-z switch that drops from 1200 to 300 Ohm. I haven't experimented a whole lot with this one.
So, what puzzles me is: why the generally low input impedance figures? Or should they be multiplied 10x for the "real" figures? Why would Tree Audio choose 150 as the default? (I've asked them, will post what they say).
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 14, 2018 5:19:46 GMT -6
Its late, Im tired, but heres some info before someone else does a better job. The impedance changes the load the Microphone see, this changes how the capsule reacts. Higher Impedance means the capsule has to work much harder. That's why changing the impedance can result in different sounds. At a lower impedance a capsule can work harder therefore seem more detailed. Impedance is like resistance but in an AC circuit. So its like the same..but different of course. This article from Neumann is good for this: "In tech talk, a low input impedance represents a high load to the preceding piece of gear. That’s because its output circuit must work harder to drive a low impedance input. A result could be audible distortion, especially at higher levels. To avoid this we want low output impedances driving light loads, i.e high input impedances." Thats why Warm told you the 150 is actuall 1500. www.neumann.com/homestudio/en/what-is-impedanceSo really a low impeadance on the mic pre makes it harder for the mic to drive. This why on SSL consoles there is a Hi-Z switch for the mic pre. It kicks it up to 10,000 ohms witch is great for ribbons and some dynamics because a higher impeadance on the mic pre means a low load on the mic thus making it easier move the ribbon/capsule and making it more detailed. This much more obvious effect in Ribbon/Dynamic microphones than condensers. This is a good article to start perhaps: whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/high-and-low-impedance-signals/Most modern mic pre impedance is around 1.5-3.5k ohms, So perhaps yes the answer i to multiple by 10? though I bet every transformer is a bit different.. Okay no someone with better knowledge can chime in. Im going to bed ha
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Post by Blackdawg on Aug 14, 2018 5:41:02 GMT -6
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2018 6:36:41 GMT -6
The low # in the preamp represents the expected source Z from the mic. The proper sentence that has been reduced to confusing shorthand over time is "input intended for 150 ohm source". Any transformer must have a certain amount of inductance to have full bass response at a given source Z, so that has always dictated the conversation. In almost all cases going very far back in time, actual Z is bridging. Simplified version. If you put a 150 nominal mic into the 37 ohm setting it will lose low end because of the inductive mismatch, which will be insufficiently high to be a bridging relationship at lowest frequencies. Actual Z with transformers is not linear, but a curve similar to speakers. Put 150 into 600 and you may get some smiley face EQ effects.
Non xfrmr coupled pre? Then it’s about mic loading effects. Matching on a dynamic is a 6dB/oct LPF at some freq. On a condenser it’s reduced headroom and higher distortion.
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 14, 2018 7:22:21 GMT -6
EmRR's explanation is perfect.
On the mechanics side, what those are doing is changing the effective turns ratio in the transformer being used. In your Tree Audio example there are probably two coils with a center tapped winding on the primary (mic) side of the transformer. In the first two the "hi" signal goes into the "hi" side of both windings. For 37.5 setting the "low" is connected to the center tap of the coils, presenting 1/2 of the primary windings, in parallel. When you switch to 150, you get both of the windings in full, still in parallel. This doubles the effective turns on the primary side. When you switch to 600, you're connecting both windings in series - "hi" goes to the fist winding, the "low" of 1 and the "hi"of 2 are connected together end to end, and the "low" side of the mic is connected to the "low" end of the second winding, doubling the turns on the primary side again.
You can use this number to figure the turns ratio too. For example, if the transformer is a 37.5/150/600:10k, this is the same as saying the turns ratio in each setting is 1:16, 1:8, and 1:4. If it makes it easier you can think of it as 1:16, 2:16, and 4:16, since the secondary side isn't changing but the primary is doubling each time. This shows you why the gain changes. Each one of those represents a different step-up ratio. Since it is doubling each time, you have 6 dB steps: 24 dB, 18 dB, and 12 dB. The impedance changes with the square of the turns ratio, which is why going from parallel to series on the primary side is a 4x change, not a 2x.
This also shows how the turns ratio changes the impedance presented to whatever source you're using. If the transformer secondary side is terminated by a load resistor, this load is "seen" by the mic on the primary side divided by the same square of the turns ratio. Using the same ratios above, a 150k load resistor is seen by a mic as 562 ohms, 2250 ohms, and 9000 ohms in each setting.
As mentioned, different mics may prefer different loadings.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2018 7:43:45 GMT -6
This also shows how the turns ratio changes the impedance presented to whatever source you're using. If the transformer secondary side is terminated by a load resistor, this load is "seen" by the mic on the primary side Much classic gear has no secondary loading, so nothing definitive presented to the mic. Much modern has either a bridging resistor or a zobel network designed to soothe transformer response which reflects no significant load to the mic in the audible band.
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2018 7:52:24 GMT -6
It's also important to note that transformers themselves do not have an "impedance" per se. They reflect loads on the secondary back to the primary based on the impedance ratio, and that's generically what you see if we only consider ideal components. So, lets say we know our turns(voltage) ratio, 1:2 (pri/sec) and we want to know our impedance ratio.. That's just the turns ratio squared, or 1:2x2 = 1:4. For the sake of simplicity, lets say that the secondary has a grounded lead and a lead that has a resistor to ground and no other loads. That resistor value will reflect back through the transformer based on the impedance ratio. Lets say that you want an "impedance" of 1200 at the primary, so since this is a 1:4 impedance ratio transformer, you'd multiply 1200x4 and get 4800. You'd want that resistor to be 4.8K. But as EmRR states, transformers are not linear devices. There's a lot of other reactive and parasitic components to the equation of using transformers. You'll see a lot of transformer secondaries in preamps with compensating networks that help "fix" the flatness problems and such. This doesn't even get into the fact that the source impedance is also reflected back into the transformer and can cause issues as well! Here's the audio transformer bible that will answer any question you've ever had on audio transformers: jensen-transformers.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Audio-Transformers-Chapter.pdf
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2018 7:53:16 GMT -6
Well, as I took my time making coffee and typing, I see everyone else pretty much covered the basics!
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Post by matt@IAA on Aug 14, 2018 7:53:44 GMT -6
EmRR in which case the impedance presented to the mic is that of the input stage reflected through the transformer plus the transformer impedance load itself, ya? At this point my head starts to hurt. A tube presents a nonlinear impedance by frequency doesn't it?
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2018 8:00:08 GMT -6
EmRR in which case the impedance presented to the mic is that of the input stage reflected through the transformer plus the transformer impedance load itself, ya? At this point my head starts to hurt. A tube presents a nonlinear impedance by frequency doesn't it? Yes, the impedance ratio works bidirectionally! This starts to delve into *transmission line* theory, with matching loads, etc.. Tubes can be nonlinear over frequency, but more importantly they can change their linearity with voltage and current changes as well. Luckily they are much higher impedance and can be controlled fairly well.
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Post by ragan on Aug 14, 2018 9:24:23 GMT -6
This is some good shit.
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Post by stormymondays on Aug 14, 2018 13:20:21 GMT -6
Wow, lots of useful info here, thank you folks!!! I suppose the correct course of action here is to start with the highest impedance available at the preamp and use your ears for the rest.
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Post by svart on Aug 14, 2018 14:32:02 GMT -6
Wow, lots of useful info here, thank you folks!!! I suppose the correct course of action here is to start with the highest impedance available at the preamp and use your ears for the rest. I would say that's a reasonable trial/error situation. Some mics like the SM57 were designed in their earlier forms to work with lower input impedances, and later adapted to the modern impedances we're used to seeing. One trick with the SM57 is to load it considerably with a 600R pad of some low attenuation value. This seems to have the effect of flattening out it's bottom end some, so you get less proximity effect. Some anecdotal evidence says that it might help flatten the high-mid peaking as well, but random graphs on the internet seem to say that's false. Most active mics will have output buffering with such low output impedance that loading them down will not appreciably affect their output response. The *standard* (there are no standards in audio interconnections unfortunately) is somewhere between 1K and 5K for preamp inputs, which is *roughly* 10x the output impedance for a dynamic mic, which is around 100-300ohms. For maximum voltage transfer, the rule-of-thumb ratio is usually 1:10 which gives some balance between impedance matching and voltage transfer while maintaining some loading. Why they do that is because in transmission line theory, you typically want maximum power transfer through a 1:1 match of source and load impedances, but you lose 50% of your voltage in doing so! In the low voltage audio world this is akin to killing 6dB of signal.. You can see this in action by using the following formula if you wish: dB loss = 10Log(Vin/Vout)^2 Vin is voltage from the source, Vout is voltage with load. or if you want to do it with impedance in ohms: dB loss = 20Log(RL/RL+RI) RL is input impedance at the preamp input (or any load really), RI is the source impedance from the mic(or any source). Doing the math, you'll see that moving either the source impedance higher, or the load impedance lower, will decrease the signal.
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Post by porkyman on Aug 14, 2018 15:32:12 GMT -6
My brain hurts.
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Post by johneppstein on Aug 14, 2018 19:38:58 GMT -6
The low # in the preamp represents the expected source Z from the mic. The proper sentence that has been reduced to confusing shorthand over time is "input intended for 150 ohm source". Any transformer must have a certain amount of inductance to have full bass response at a given source Z, so that has always dictated the conversation. In almost all cases going very far back in time, actual Z is bridging. Simplified version. If you put a 150 nominal mic into the 37 ohm setting it will lose low end because of the inductive mismatch, which will be insufficiently high to be a bridging relationship at lowest frequencies. Actual Z with transformers is not linear, but a curve similar to speakers. Put 150 into 600 and you may get some smiley face EQ effects. Non xfrmr coupled pre? Then it’s about mic loading effects. Matching on a dynamic is a 6dB/oct LPF at some freq. On a condenser it’s reduced headroom and higher distortion. Let's not forget non-transformer coupled mics.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 14, 2018 19:44:44 GMT -6
The low # in the preamp represents the expected source Z from the mic. The proper sentence that has been reduced to confusing shorthand over time is "input intended for 150 ohm source". Any transformer must have a certain amount of inductance to have full bass response at a given source Z, so that has always dictated the conversation. In almost all cases going very far back in time, actual Z is bridging. Simplified version. If you put a 150 nominal mic into the 37 ohm setting it will lose low end because of the inductive mismatch, which will be insufficiently high to be a bridging relationship at lowest frequencies. Actual Z with transformers is not linear, but a curve similar to speakers. Put 150 into 600 and you may get some smiley face EQ effects. Non xfrmr coupled pre? Then it’s about mic loading effects. Matching on a dynamic is a 6dB/oct LPF at some freq. On a condenser it’s reduced headroom and higher distortion. Let's not forget non-transformer coupled mics. They behave as the last sentence, doesn't make a difference, unless they are super low output Z condensers, but even most of those still want more than 1K.
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Post by peterhess on Aug 14, 2018 20:43:44 GMT -6
I’m going to read this over and over and over. Thank you for sharing this, all y’all.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,006
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Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2018 7:00:57 GMT -6
Wow, lots of useful info here, thank you folks!!! I suppose the correct course of action here is to start with the highest impedance available at the preamp and use your ears for the rest. I would say that's a reasonable trial/error situation. Some mics like the SM57 were designed in their earlier forms to work with lower input impedances, and later adapted to the modern impedances we're used to seeing. One trick with the SM57 is to load it considerably with a 600R pad of some low attenuation value. This seems to have the effect of flattening out it's bottom end some, so you get less proximity effect. Some anecdotal evidence says that it might help flatten the high-mid peaking as well, but random graphs on the internet seem to say that's false. Most active mics will have output buffering with such low output impedance that loading them down will not appreciably affect their output response. The *standard* (there are no standards in audio interconnections unfortunately) is somewhere between 1K and 5K for preamp inputs, which is *roughly* 10x the output impedance for a dynamic mic, which is around 100-300ohms. For maximum voltage transfer, the rule-of-thumb ratio is usually 1:10 which gives some balance between impedance matching and voltage transfer while maintaining some loading. Why they do that is because in transmission line theory, you typically want maximum power transfer through a 1:1 match of source and load impedances, but you lose 50% of your voltage in doing so! In the low voltage audio world this is akin to killing 6dB of signal.. You can see this in action by using the following formula if you wish: dB loss = 10Log(Vin/Vout)^2 Vin is voltage from the source, Vout is voltage with load. or if you want to do it with impedance in ohms: dB loss = 20Log(RL/RL+RI) RL is input impedance at the preamp input (or any load really), RI is the source impedance from the mic(or any source). Doing the math, you'll see that moving either the source impedance higher, or the load impedance lower, will decrease the signal. Sure bring math into it will you😁
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Post by EmRR on Aug 15, 2018 7:27:30 GMT -6
Take it with a grain of salt as Audio Precision tells you that measuring the impedance of inductive loads is prone to error, but many old tube preamps with highest quality input transformers measure well over 5K at some frequencies, some up to 20K, with lowering Ω at lower and higher frequencies. The 6dB down point (you guessed it) will be a matching condition. So you get an idea of the kind of impedance curves that exist, and that is a lot of the 'transformational magic' of many vintage preamps, every mic and preamp combo will make a different sound because it's essentially an EQ, similar to changing speakers in a speaker cabinet on a tube amp. I could only find one example that I captured with my phone: old tube preamp input Z curve
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Post by notneeson on Aug 15, 2018 9:28:12 GMT -6
So, I don't feel like I've gotten a lot of mileage out of impedance options on mic pres. TG2, 610, X73i etc. I just don't find it helps that often as an option.
But, I was tracking guitars with a WA412 for the first time yesterday and both an R101 and an EV DS35 were better (thicker) with the "tone" button depressed. This was on a Marshall 4x12, going back and forth between a JCM 800 and a modded Bandmaster Reverb, FWIW.
I think it's one of those cases where I got in the habit of trying and dismissing something and then a new piece of gear came along and suddenly I was more open minded. Need to check myself.
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Post by EmRR on Aug 15, 2018 9:42:34 GMT -6
Every time I do a custom rack job on some old preamp with multi-tap input transformers, I get asked to set it up for every available impedance. No one ever used those taps like that, they set them for what they think they need. I always talk people out of it, as most people are never going to change them very often, and it's a huge labor cost to make it an option on every channel. It's mostly useless bling for most things and it puts another mechanical switch in the low level audio path to eventually get dirty, intermittent, or fail. It's another thing that can be set or left in the non-optimized or wrong position. If the taps allow it, I'd rather use separate XLR's for each Z to keep the switch out of the path, but no one ever wants to do that.
I do like having a channel or 2 set up for 50 ohm Western Electric or Altec mics, or RCA and Shure ribbons with 50 ohm taps. 50 ohm setting on an SM57 can make for a fat band-passed sound. Etc.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,006
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Post by ericn on Aug 15, 2018 9:48:58 GMT -6
Every time I do a custom rack job on some old preamp with multi-tap input transformers, I get asked to set it up for every available impedance. No one ever used those taps like that, they set them for what they think they need. I always talk people out of it, as most people are never going to change them very often, and it's a huge labor cost to make it an option on every channel. It's mostly useless bling for most things and it puts another mechanical switch in the low level audio path to eventually get dirty, intermittent, or fail. It's another thing that can be set or left in the non-optimized or wrong position. If the taps allow it, I'd rather use separate XLR's for each Z to keep the switch out of the path, but no one ever wants to do that. I do like having a channel or 2 set up for 50 ohm Western Electric or Altec mics, or RCA and Shure ribbons with 50 ohm taps. 50 ohm setting on an SM57 can make for a fat band-passed sound. Etc. I know of at least a couple of pieces where switchable impendance had more to do with pleasing a couple of important clients who had their own ideas of what the perfect load should be.
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Post by notneeson on Aug 15, 2018 11:42:01 GMT -6
Every time I do a custom rack job on some old preamp with multi-tap input transformers, I get asked to set it up for every available impedance. No one ever used those taps like that, they set them for what they think they need. I always talk people out of it, as most people are never going to change them very often, and it's a huge labor cost to make it an option on every channel. It's mostly useless bling for most things and it puts another mechanical switch in the low level audio path to eventually get dirty, intermittent, or fail. It's another thing that can be set or left in the non-optimized or wrong position. If the taps allow it, I'd rather use separate XLR's for each Z to keep the switch out of the path, but no one ever wants to do that. I do like having a channel or 2 set up for 50 ohm Western Electric or Altec mics, or RCA and Shure ribbons with 50 ohm taps. 50 ohm setting on an SM57 can make for a fat band-passed sound. Etc. I know of at least a couple of pieces where switchable impendance had more to do with pleasing a couple of important clients who had their own ideas of what the perfect load should be. Important clients can be perfect loads.
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Post by svart on Aug 15, 2018 11:49:25 GMT -6
Not sure which big name it is/was, but they load down their ribbons pretty heavily to pre-EQ them. I tried it and it makes a considerable difference in how the low end is controlled.
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Post by geoff738 on Aug 16, 2018 21:40:19 GMT -6
I was told there would be no math.
(Great stuff here. Thanks!)
Cheers, Geoff
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