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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 11:05:07 GMT -6
Got a link for that thread? I have an H9 Max. The Tape Delay algo is OK, but not great. The reverbs are mostly amazing, as you would expect.
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Post by Quint on Jul 13, 2018 11:38:47 GMT -6
Probably for many reasons. You old guys hype the old gear, and then wonder why it gets popular with younger folks. These days most of the old gear is malfunctioning. Therefore maybe that's the sound younger people associate with it. Add to that the overall cultural fixation with nostalgia, and the fact that some artists have made entire careers out of 'tapey wobble' (Boards of Canada etc.) and I don't think it's that unreasonable for someone like Strymon to want to model all the grime, especially when it's controllable and you don't have to turn the "Age" or "Wow/Flutter" up from zero if you don't want to. I'm not answering this. I have no desire to be penalized again for responding to ageist insults. I don't know any experienced people who "hype" broken gear. It's all the youngsters who don't know any better.
I'm planning on contacting Strymon and asking them if they're modeled the switching correctly. The problem I'm concerned with iks not a small detail - it has to do with whether the machine maintains pitch when switch from one head setting to another, or to put ity another way, can you use head switching to double or half delay time or switch from a single head to a multi-heasd setting without affecting the pitch of the echo.
It annoys me that these companies include (inaccurate) noise and wobble "features" when they can't even get the basic operation of the machine right.
Hopefully Strymon will have an answer.
To be honest, I don't much care it the box models the "tape tone" - if the thing has the tonal quality of my Roland SDE-1000s it would be fine with me. What I want is the FUNCTIONALITY.
How many times do you think you've used the words "youngsters" or "kids" on this forum or on GS? Stop doing that and maybe people will feel less inclined to refer to you as one of the "old guys". Ageism is a two way street.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 13, 2018 11:42:15 GMT -6
I wasn't being ageist calling him an old guy, just stating a fact. I'm no spring chicken myself!
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Post by Quint on Jul 13, 2018 11:44:17 GMT -6
Get off my lawn!
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Post by jazznoise on Jul 13, 2018 12:10:02 GMT -6
Seems like an easy enough feature to add, John. You'd just have 3 delay lines on the go and you'd just tap into them as necessary. It's probably an effort reduce CPU usage to just keep to the one.
My main complaint would be many software ones don't do the headbump properly and thats a big part of tape echo and how it saturates. Some delay times can be gotten by 2 of the heads on my Copicat but they'll both sound different.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 12:18:36 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 12:36:37 GMT -6
I wasn't being ageist calling him an old guy, just stating a fact. I'm no spring chicken myself! What bothers me is people putting words in my mouth. I have never advocated using broken or pooprly maintained equipment of any age and have often spoken out against it. However therre's a persistent "internet meme" that promotes the idea that what makes classic equipment desdirable is that it's inferior in performance to "modern" gear when in reality ther exact opposite is the case unless the equipment in question is broken in some way - in which case it needs to be fixed. I believe that this meme has its genesis with lessd than scrupulousd digital designers who promote the idea that adding noise and distortion somehow makes things more "analog".
It ain't us "old guys" sprerading this rather toxic idea around.
I'd really rather not be talking about this - it's off topic and a waste of time.
My POINT, which I would like to discuss if anyone can provide any info, is in regard to the question of whether any company has yet got the emulation of the difference between changing delay times by head switching rather than by "motor speed", which to me is a key point in modeling how a machine of the Space Echo type, which has both mutiple head switching and a variable tape speed, works.
And nobody has answered this yet.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 12:44:45 GMT -6
Seems like an easy enough feature to add, John. You'd just have 3 delay lines on the go and you'd just tap into them as necessary. It's probably an effort reduce CPU usage to just keep to the one. My main complaint would be many software ones don't do the headbump properly and thats a big part of tape echo and how it saturates. Some delay times can be gotten by 2 of the heads on my Copicat but they'll both sound different. Yes, I agree - it would seem to be an obvious thing, but I have yet to see any digital echo that gets it right and would be greatly interested to find out if such an echo exists.
I, personally, am not all that interested in the "tape emu" part, although I wouldn't mind as long as it's not a cheesy mess of noise and erratic speed variants. It would be nice to be able to have a smooth progression into a realistic magnetic saturation (and an indicator for monitoring this visually in real time), but that's of less importance than the repeat speed vs pitch issue.
I should write to Strymon and see what they have to say about it. Talking to Boss/Roland didn't get a response.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 13, 2018 12:55:29 GMT -6
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 13:21:34 GMT -6
Nice try, thanks, but it still doesn't answer my question. Or if it does, then this machine has the same problem as all the others..
Understand, this is NOT something that a guitar player would likely think about. It's important to me because I use my echoes at FOH or in the studio with a hardware console.
On a real Space Echo if you play a note or chord and chamnge the head setting the pitch does not change, only the timing. THAT'S what I'm looking for that no digital emulation I've seen can do. No pitch smear.
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 13, 2018 13:32:20 GMT -6
Watch the video. It changes the pitch.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 13, 2018 15:44:14 GMT -6
Watch the video. It changes the pitch. I did, starting just before 6:00. It wasn't totally clear to me if changing the "head" also changed the pitch (perhaps I should watch it again), but if it does that's the same problem that every other Space Echo "emulation" has. I need changing the head to leave the pitch the same but alter the timing of the repeats. That's what a real Space Echo (or Korg Stage Echo) does, and it's really handy for changing your repeat timing in mid song without smearing the audio. Without the ability to do that there's a lot of stuff I used to do with a real Space Echo that is impossible with the digital emulation. Like going from a short slap or near double in one section of a song to a long, spacey repeat in another. The really cool thing about the Korg is that it uses pushbuttons for head selection rather than the rotary switch.
EDIT: I just watched that section again - he does not appear to do what I'm talking about. Maybe in another section?
It certainly is a pretty sounding box!
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Post by winetree on Jul 13, 2018 16:06:09 GMT -6
Analog Room hardware:
1 - Roland 201 Space Echo ( see DIY Thread ) 2 - Roland SDE 3000s 2 - Lexicon PCM 42s 1 - stereo Delta Lab DL-2 2 - ADA Delay Other units that have delay but aren't delay lines per say.
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Post by Quint on Jul 13, 2018 17:08:28 GMT -6
Watch the video. It changes the pitch. I did, starting just before 6:00. It wasn't totally cleart to me is changing the "head" also changed the pitch (perhaps I should watch it again), but if it does that's the same problem that every other Space Echo "emulation" has. I need changing the head to leave the pitch the same but alter the timing of the repeats. That's what a real Space Echo (or Korg Stage Echo) does, and it's really handy for changing your repeat timing in mid song without smearing the audio. Without the ability to do that there's a lot of stuff I used to do with a real Space Echo that is impossible with the digital emulation. Like going from a short slap or near double in one section of a song to a long, spacey repeat in another. The really cool thing about the Korg is that it uses pushbuttons for head selection rather than the rotary switch.
EDIT: I just watched that section again - he does not appear to do what I'm talking about. Maybe in another section?
It certainly is a pretty sounding box!
Get two of them and run them at the same time. One in bypass with a different delay time. Turn one one and the other off at the same time to change delay times.
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Post by johneppstein on Jul 14, 2018 14:15:02 GMT -6
I did, starting just before 6:00. It wasn't totally cleart to me is changing the "head" also changed the pitch (perhaps I should watch it again), but if it does that's the same problem that every other Space Echo "emulation" has. I need changing the head to leave the pitch the same but alter the timing of the repeats. That's what a real Space Echo (or Korg Stage Echo) does, and it's really handy for changing your repeat timing in mid song without smearing the audio. Without the ability to do that there's a lot of stuff I used to do with a real Space Echo that is impossible with the digital emulation. Like going from a short slap or near double in one section of a song to a long, spacey repeat in another. The really cool thing about the Korg is that it uses pushbuttons for head selection rather than the rotary switch.
EDIT: I just watched that section again - he does not appear to do what I'm talking about. Maybe in another section?
It certainly is a pretty sounding box!
Get two of them and run them at the same time. One in bypass with a different delay time. Turn one one and the other off at the same time to change delay times. Won't work, at least not in any practical way. Maybe in some clumsy way it could be made to sort of work in the studio, but in a live situation there's no way. There would also be a glitch at the time of switching. There is no glitch when switching heads on a Space Echo, it seamlessly jumps the playback time without artifacts.
And for the cost of two of them I could buy the real thing.
I'm thinking that jazznoise nailed it - a box would need to have three delay lines fed off the same input and running off the same clock, with the output of the lines feeding a switching matrix that in turn would feed both the output of the device and the feedback input to the delay lines. Ther three delay lines would be synced to emulate the relative timings of the playback heads and the clock would emulate the motor speed control. You could even add a "Tap Tempo" to the clock which would add a useful capability the original lacked. There would need to be three separate delays, simply tapping a single line would not work.
HHMmmm - we seem to be getting the engineering concepts of this thing hammered out. I think we're close to the point where shooting an email off to Strymon might be of some practical use....?
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Post by delcampo on Jul 14, 2018 14:38:00 GMT -6
Recapped RE-201 Ursa Major Stargate 626
Guitar pedal wise I really like Fairfield circuitry meet Maude.
Use the UAD RE-201 & Cooper time cube a lot.
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Post by guitfiddler on Jul 15, 2018 3:21:10 GMT -6
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Post by spock on Jul 15, 2018 15:21:43 GMT -6
MOOG 500 Delays are wonderfully dark and gooey; they recently stopped producing them, due to lack of vintage bucket brigade chip supply. If you are lucky to find one or a pair, they just grab them.
Control via midi from their plugin interface provides access to more functionality.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 15, 2018 16:10:53 GMT -6
MOOG 500 Delays are wonderfully dark and gooey; they recently stopped producing them, due to lack of vintage bucket brigade chip supply. If you are lucky to find one or a pair, they just grab them. Control via midi from their plugin interface provides access to more functionality. I see them going for 1000-1200 a ch. But every demo Ive heard is killer. Definitely want a pair. Little worried about the plugin support maybe?? Anyone use the DDL-500??
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Post by spock on Jul 15, 2018 19:54:21 GMT -6
MOOG 500 Delays are wonderfully dark and gooey; they recently stopped producing them, due to lack of vintage bucket brigade chip supply. If you are lucky to find one or a pair, they just grab them. Control via midi from their plugin interface provides access to more functionality. I see them going for 1000-1200 a ch. But every demo Ive heard is killer. Definitely want a pair. Little worried about the plugin support maybe?? Anyone use the DDL-500?? Not worried, it’s midi controlled, the plug is just their custom GUI for it.
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Post by nudwig on Jul 16, 2018 16:46:17 GMT -6
I see them going for 1000-1200 a ch. But every demo Ive heard is killer. Definitely want a pair. Little worried about the plugin support maybe?? I do wish I had another to make up a pair, but even in mono I love it. The plugin works fine for me in PT 2018.4 and Ableton 10 on OSX 10.12.6 (worked in PT 12 and Ableton 9 in both 10.10 and 10.11 as well). Fingers crossed it stays that way. It and the Exponential Audio plugin for the Bricasti make life much easier.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 16, 2018 23:50:19 GMT -6
I see them going for 1000-1200 a ch. But every demo Ive heard is killer. Definitely want a pair. Little worried about the plugin support maybe?? I do wish I had another to make up a pair, but even in mono I love it. The plugin works fine for me in PT 2018.4 and Ableton 10 on OSX 10.12.6 (worked in PT 12 and Ableton 9 in both 10.10 and 10.11 as well). Fingers crossed it stays that way. It and the Exponential Audio plugin for the Bricasti make life much easier. Man I need that plugin. I have 3M7s. That would be nice to have.
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Post by nudwig on Jul 17, 2018 11:14:52 GMT -6
Man I need that plugin. I have 3M7s. That would be nice to have. I don't want to get too far off topic but in my opinion yes you do. This goes for the Moog delay as well, as long as I never mess with the input level (and/or output level on the delay) these midi controller plugins are amazing for recall and automation, I don't even touch the M7 except to turn it on and check that it's receiving level. It's also fun to get into some deeper parameters and experiment with things, then save it all as a preset.
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Post by Blackdawg on Jul 18, 2018 8:36:53 GMT -6
Man I need that plugin. I have 3M7s. That would be nice to have. I don't want to get too far off topic but in my opinion yes you do. This goes for the Moog delay as well, as long as I never mess with the input level (and/or output level on the delay) these midi controller plugins are amazing for recall and automation, I don't even touch the M7 except to turn it on and check that it's receiving level. It's also fun to get into some deeper parameters and experiment with things, then save it all as a preset. Can you pull presets off the M7 directly? Cause that would be super handy too. Wonder if it'll work with Pyramix too..have too look into it! Be great for the surround sound mixing I do.
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Post by nudwig on Jul 18, 2018 15:56:17 GMT -6
Can you pull presets off the M7 directly? Cause that would be super handy too. Wonder if it'll work with Pyramix too..have too look into it! Be great for the surround sound mixing I do. To be honest I'm not sure, good question for Michael at Exponential. It does have all the stock presets and a favorites section I use for my go to settings as well as patches I've built. I had the plugin before I had the M7 so I've just always used that instead of selecting from the unit. I'm not sure what format Pyramix uses but I've used it in PT and Ableton both digital and analog with no issues, it's AAX, AU and VST. Apologies to everyone for this getting off topic, to help bring it back I'll add that when using the Moog controller plugin make sure the midi beat clock is on and it syncs nicely. Also, automating the LFO makes for some fun sounds, especially when abusing the delay feedback.
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