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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2018 13:00:15 GMT -6
What good affordable mic bars are you guys using for mid side recording? I'd like a decent one with some adjustability that can accommodate various sizes and types of mics, but I also don't necessarily want to spend a ton buying a bar just to explore a technique I may or may not even end up liking that much. Ideally, this setup would allow for angling the bar and both mics as a unit so that the pair can both be simultaneously pointed towards the sound source in one move rather than requiring individual adjustment of each mic. Something like the Grace in the link below would be great. I just didn't want to spend $400 right now if I could avoid it. www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/Spacebar66--grace-design-spacebar-sb-66-66-cm-spacebarEdit: Anybody used one of these? www.performanceaudio.com/item/superlux-ma-90-precision-stereo-bar/52960/ |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2018 19:58:21 GMT -6
You might take a look at this: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ST2--sabra-som-st2-2-mic-stereo-bar. A big part of your decision will be based on the size and orientation of the mic bodies. But I've found several uses for this. The bar is generic hex aluminum stock, which you can find on Amazon. I bought a longer piece for a Blumlein setup with larger mics and it worked nicely. The hardware is lightweight but is well-made for the price. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 7, 2018 20:30:50 GMT -6
You might take a look at this: www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ST2--sabra-som-st2-2-mic-stereo-bar. A big part of your decision will be based on the size and orientation of the mic bodies. But I've found several uses for this. The bar is generic hex aluminum stock, which you can find on Amazon. I bought a longer piece for a Blumlein setup with larger mics and it worked nicely. The hardware is lightweight but is well-made for the price. I was actually looking at the Sabra ST4 earlier because it bad a longer bar than the ST2 that could accommodate larger mics in Blumlein or MS. The question mark in my mind was how flimsy it may or may not be. My biggest worries would be how well things stay tightened over time and if there are any drooping issues with the rotational part that attaches to the mic stand. How do you feel it fairs in those regards? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 6:59:10 GMT -6
I was actually looking at the Sabra ST4 earlier because it bad a longer bar than the ST2 that could accommodate larger mics in Blumlein or MS. The question mark in my mind was how flimsy it may or may not be. My biggest worries would be how well things stay tightened over time and if there are any drooping issues with the rotational part that attaches to the mic stand. How do you feel it fairs in those regards? It's lightweight, but it's not flimsy. I'm not sure I'd hang really heavy mics on it (but a pair of '87s isn't a choice I'd make for this application anyway). I've had several mic groupings on this over the last couple of years and it's stayed in place. A couple of nights ago, I had a Samar stereo ribbon and a Schoeps MK-21 on it with no problem. I've had a pair of AEA ribbons on it and frequently had an M/S setup with an AEA ribbon and a KM-140. You may have to tighten it pretty hard, but I've never seen any indication of stripping. I think the trick is to dress your cables back to the mic stand so that the mount doesn't have to deal with the weight of 8 feet of multiple cables. But you'd do that anyway. I've been meaning to pick up a second one, both for additional options and as a spare. But over the 2 years (might be 3) I've had it, there have been no problems. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 8:25:03 GMT -6
I was actually looking at the Sabra ST4 earlier because it bad a longer bar than the ST2 that could accommodate larger mics in Blumlein or MS. The question mark in my mind was how flimsy it may or may not be. My biggest worries would be how well things stay tightened over time and if there are any drooping issues with the rotational part that attaches to the mic stand. How do you feel it fairs in those regards? It's lightweight, but it's not flimsy. I'm not sure I'd hang really heavy mics on it (but a pair of '87s isn't a choice I'd make for this application anyway). I've had several mic groupings on this over the last couple of years and it's stayed in place. A couple of nights ago, I had a Samar stereo ribbon and a Schoeps MK-21 on it with no problem. I've had a pair of AEA ribbons on it and frequently had an M/S setup with an AEA ribbon and a KM-140. You may have to tighten it pretty hard, but I've never seen any indication of stripping. I think the trick is to dress your cables back to the mic stand so that the mount doesn't have to deal with the weight of 8 feet of multiple cables. But you'd do that anyway. I've been meaning to pick up a second one, both for additional options and as a spare. But over the 2 years (might be 3) I've had it, there have been no problems. Actually, a pair of U87s is exactly one of the things I was going to try. There's no need to get into personal mic preferences here now but, suffice it to say, the weight concerns you're associating with using the U87s is exactly the sort of thing I was worried about. I still may give the ST4 a try though, given the price. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 9:15:06 GMT -6
Actually, a pair of U87s is exactly one of the things I was going to try. There's no need to get into personal mic preferences here now but, suffice it to say, the weight concerns you're associating with using the U87s is exactly the sort of thing I was worried about. I still may give the ST4 a try though, given the price. You got me curious about weight. FWIW, the N8s I used are listed at 335 grams (total of 670 grams for the pair). The U87 is listed at 500 grams (for a total of a kilogram). So you'd be hanging nearly twice the weight. And I'd imagine the basket shock mounts would add to that noticeably. If you decide to give the Sabra Som a try, please post here to let us know how it turned out. And in regards to mic preferences, I wouldn't use the N8s for main pair Blumlein again  They're just too soft. Love to try them on a brass quintet though. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 9:28:37 GMT -6
Actually, a pair of U87s is exactly one of the things I was going to try. There's no need to get into personal mic preferences here now but, suffice it to say, the weight concerns you're associating with using the U87s is exactly the sort of thing I was worried about. I still may give the ST4 a try though, given the price. You got me curious about weight. FWIW, the N8s I used are listed at 335 grams (total of 670 grams for the pair). The U87 is listed at 500 grams (for a total of a kilogram). So you'd be hanging nearly twice the weight. And I'd imagine the basket shock mounts would add to that noticeably. If you decide to give the Sabra Som a try, please post here to let us know how it turned out. And in regards to mic preferences, I wouldn't use the N8s for main pair Blumlein again They're just too soft. Love to try them on a brass quintet though. Yeah, the higher weight of the U87s coupled with those little thumb screws on the Sabra does have me worried about things coming loose and crashing down. I'm kind of leaning towards the Superlux at this point. It looks like it has detents on the bar and much larger thumb screws to get better torque. I wish I could swing the $400 on the Grace right now. I just can't justify it at this point. The Grace sure does look nice though. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 9:58:34 GMT -6
I'm kind of leaning towards the Superlux at this point. It looks like it has detents on the bar and much larger thumb screws to get better torque. I didn't know the Superlux before, but it looks nice. One of our local dealers (Performance Audio) lists it at $88.96, which isn't bad at all. Might have to get one myself! |
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 10:02:25 GMT -6
I'm kind of leaning towards the Superlux at this point. It looks like it has detents on the bar and much larger thumb screws to get better torque. I didn't know the Superlux before, but it looks nice. One of our local dealers (Performance Audio) lists it at $88.96, which isn't bad at all. Might have to get one myself! I can't tell for sure, but it looks like those little protrusions on either end may be there as a failsafe in case one of the clamps were to come loose and slide down the bar. If not, I'm not sure what else they would be for? |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 10:11:23 GMT -6
I can't tell for sure, but it looks like those little protrusions on either end may be there as a failsafe in case one of the clamps were to come loose and slide down the bar. If not, I'm not sure what else they would be for? Probably so. But if you've got the mics in the baskets, they'll protrude out from the bar. That will create a little leverage that will keep the mics from sliding anyway. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 10:26:30 GMT -6
I do hope you enjoy experimenting with M/S. I know a lot of very good engineers who hate the technique and I'm not sure why. Mathematically it's very similar to Blumlein (especially if the Mid mic is figure-8). You largely can turn one into the other.
I've found a lot of use for M/S in conjunction with spaced omnis. Since I record both for stereo and surround, I'm always looking for techniques that will translate. M/S at the center gives you a nice anchor. The omnis help to give that robust image that works when you're out of the sweet spot. The mono compatibility is still pretty good.
Have fun!
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 10:26:57 GMT -6
I can't tell for sure, but it looks like those little protrusions on either end may be there as a failsafe in case one of the clamps were to come loose and slide down the bar. If not, I'm not sure what else they would be for? Probably so. But if you've got the mics in the baskets, they'll protrude out from the bar. That will create a little leverage that will keep the mics from sliding anyway. Agreed. 0.5 Kg hanging at a point located a few inches off the bar hopefully should help to add extra "grab" on the bar. I do wish the Superlux had the hexagonal bar that the Sabra does instead of the square bar. Not a deal breaker though. |
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Post by Quint on Jul 8, 2018 10:30:53 GMT -6
I do hope you enjoy experimenting with M/S. I know a lot of very good engineers who hate the technique and I'm not sure why. Mathematically it's very similar to Blumlein (especially if the Mid mic is figure-8). You largely can turn one into the other. I've found a lot of use for M/S in conjunction with spaced omnis. Since I record both for stereo and surround, I'm always looking for techniques that will translate. M/S at the center gives you a nice anchor. The omnis help to give that robust image that works when you're out of the sweet spot. The mono compatibility is still pretty good. Have fun! I'm looking forward to it. One reason, among many others, is that I like the idea of the nulls for both fig8 mics pointing at the ceiling if you place the mic configuration out in front of the sound source in a horizontal direction. It's the same reason I got into ribbons years ago. |
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Post by ericn on Jul 8, 2018 13:02:34 GMT -6
I do hope you enjoy experimenting with M/S. I know a lot of very good engineers who hate the technique and I'm not sure why. Mathematically it's very similar to Blumlein (especially if the Mid mic is figure-8). You largely can turn one into the other. I've found a lot of use for M/S in conjunction with spaced omnis. Since I record both for stereo and surround, I'm always looking for techniques that will translate. M/S at the center gives you a nice anchor. The omnis help to give that robust image that works when you're out of the sweet spot. The mono compatibility is still pretty good. Have fun! But math is scary who said there would be math 🌚 Seriously though I know many who the simple concept of there was math envolved with M/S made them run from it unless using a simple point and shoot M/S stereo mic. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 8, 2018 17:01:10 GMT -6
But math is scary who said there would be math 🌚 Seriously though I know many who the simple concept of there was math envolved with M/S made them run from it unless using a simple point and shoot M/S stereo mic. I'm afraid you're probably right. Of course there are plenty of plugins (many of them free) that will manage M/S encoding and decoding. It's too bad that the technique evokes such fear in people. The underlying math is trivial, but even then you don't have to look. |
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Post by spindrift on Jul 9, 2018 7:04:57 GMT -6
Check out the Grace SB-BL listed on this page: www.gracedesign.com/products/spacebar/spacebar_modular.htmlFor hanging blumlien or M/S pairs, with it’s well thought out adjustment system and the first-rate quality engineering, I find it to be an absolute bargain at $285 retail. I have full confidence hanging any of my mics from it. I wish there were better online pics of it but you would be super-impressed with it in hand. I’ve attached a pic of mine in action with a pair of MK67s. Buy once-cry once. |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 10, 2018 4:12:24 GMT -6
Or how about a DIY 'Frankenstand' for a pair of weighty Coles 4038's? (WARNING!: Do not try this at home!) ![]() Attachment Deleted |
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Post by wiz on Jul 10, 2018 4:22:06 GMT -6
Or how about a DIY 'Frankenstand' for a pair of weighty Coles 4038's? (WARNING!: Do not try this at home!) ![]() I loathe “occy straps” 8) cheers Wiz |
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Post by rowmat on Jul 10, 2018 4:46:32 GMT -6
Or how about a DIY 'Frankenstand' for a pair of weighty Coles 4038's? (WARNING!: Do not try this at home! I loathe “occy straps” 8) cheers Wiz I completely agree but in this case they were under hardly any tension and just designed as a last line of defence in case things went south. I am working on a custom stereo bar for the Coles that won't require such abominations! However I was rather proud of my use of a pair of 4.7 Tonne rated 'D' shackles which were used as counterweights! |
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They're just too soft. Love to try them on a brass quintet though.
