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Post by M57 on Jul 9, 2018 16:49:36 GMT -6
I've had instances where old school midi ports/cables work better than USB/midi. Much less buggy. Couldn't tell you why though Yeah, I have to admit - sometimes Logic just doesn't see the MIDI info unless I unplug the keyboard and re-plug it back in. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 9, 2018 19:43:55 GMT -6
The guitar inputs can be phase inverted and have a trim knob, line inputs only have digital trim. The guitar impedance inputs are also 1Mohm. 103 dB dynamic range, -93 dB THD+N, +10 dBu max input. Line inputs are 10k impedance, 117 dB dynamic range, -110 dB THD+N, and +24 dBu max input. You can use the XLR as line inputs with the pad engaged. Page 99 has the goods: s3.amazonaws.com/motu-www-data/manuals/avb/624_User_Guide.pdf |
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Post by popmann on Jul 10, 2018 13:12:33 GMT -6
To cross with your other thread, while it isnt “required”, if having reverb on your cue is super important, that should be how you narrow this down. Recent RME, MOTU, and Steinberg units aimed at home studios will likely have built in reverb chips, once you get into bigger IO, they wont as theyre aimed more at budget studios....who will have a montiroing system ith reverb available.
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Post by M57 on Jul 11, 2018 4:24:48 GMT -6
So how easily does this DSP in the interface thing work?
Say for instance that I'm overdubbing a vocal, so I use the reverb in the interface and route it to the monitor or headphone mix. When I go to playback, it will be dry, right? So then, in theory I would have to hit a button to listen to it with whatever reverb plug I prefer. Then if I decide I don't like the take, I would have to hit another button to disable the plugin?
UNLESS the the DAW is smart, which I'm pretty sure Logic is. I'm pretty sure it automatically disables plugins when recording if not in low latency mode. And I would never use input monitoring, right? So hide that button.
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ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
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Post by ericn on Jul 11, 2018 6:56:08 GMT -6
So how easily does this DSP in the interface thing work? Say for instance that I'm overdubbing a vocal, so I use the reverb in the interface and route it to the monitor or headphone mix. When I go to playback, it will be dry, right? So then, in theory I would have to hit a button to listen to it with whatever reverb plug I prefer. Then if I decide I don't like the take, I would have to hit another button to disable the plugin? UNLESS the the DAW is smart, which I'm pretty sure Logic is. I'm pretty sure it automatically disables plugins when recording if not in low latency mode. And I would never use input monitoring, right? So hide that button. Your seeing why PT TDM/HD/HDX is what it is seamless simple intergration. Now somebody like Apple, if they understood the role and need for DSP could write some kind of standard for handeling on board DSP. With their weight behind it I’m sure most manufacturers would adopt it. Back in the early PT3 and PT24 days Digi/AVID was really open to other vendors and you could run Logic or DP on your PT hardware using TDM DSP, but that didn’t last very long. Remember the last new pretty much universal standard specifically for DAW’s in any shape or form was the EUCON control standard and that was only open for software companies never other hardware vendors!!! Think of the cool DSP and hardware intergration we could have if we could get all the DAW software companies to agree on a standard, hell think of how much better plugins would be if we had one standard format and developers could sink the time / cash they spend on porting and supporting all the different formats on new development. Now carry that over to a universal DSP / Native format! I have always been surprised that the proaudio community hasn’t demanded a universal plugin / control standards and looked at as the digital equivalent to the XLR and TRS jacks. |
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 11, 2018 7:20:32 GMT -6
So how easily does this DSP in the interface thing work? Say for instance that I'm overdubbing a vocal, so I use the reverb in the interface and route it to the monitor or headphone mix. When I go to playback, it will be dry, right? So then, in theory I would have to hit a button to listen to it with whatever reverb plug I prefer. Then if I decide I don't like the take, I would have to hit another button to disable the plugin? UNLESS the the DAW is smart, which I'm pretty sure Logic is. I'm pretty sure it automatically disables plugins when recording if not in low latency mode. And I would never use input monitoring, right? So hide that button. Very easily! I have an RME Fireface 802. As far as I'm concerned, it IS a digital mixer, only the faders and "desk" part of it it's done in software (Total Mix) instead of hardware. It's got dynamics, reverb, EQ, none of it gets printed. You can monitor through the interface with no latency and a nice "comfort" reverb. When you press play in Logic, you will listen to whatever you have setup in Logic: reverb sends, EQ, etc. You don't need to disable anything for recording, or even use low latency mode. All the live tracks are being monitored through the interface, and all the playback comes from Logic, with any delay fully compensated. You can leave the buffer size as high as you like. |
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Post by popmann on Jul 11, 2018 9:29:59 GMT -6
First of....the hardware mixer chips on interfaces ARE a hardware digital mixer sans the physical controlls. totalmix isnt software....well, tehcnically it Is—but the same way ProTools was for 20 years—its just a control UI for a hardware mixer chips.
Second, your (OP) current Focusrite has one. It probably wont do the intricate routing of totalmix....and probably doesnt have the reverb, but you already have it. This is kind of a misnormer “dsp on the interface”....theres always a dsp mixer on the interface. It just doesnt typically have reverbs and eq and compressors and such like have started in the last 10 years....having reverb dsp is not the only dsp. For latency free monitoring purposes,...they all have DSP mixers. Reverb or not.
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Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 11, 2018 9:41:57 GMT -6
The Apollo line works flawlessly. Maybe you might think about finding a good deal on a used Apollo? Even if you buy only 2 or 3 UAD plugs, it's nice to have the option. I use fewer and fewer plugs these days, but the few UAD plugs I use have become essential. In Logic, Low Latency mode temporarily disables plugs, but with an Apollo, you can put whatever you like on busses in the Console and then choose to print or not, all the while using Low Latency.
I'm no expert, you probably know much more about Logic than I do, but the Apollo sure works like a charm.
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Post by Guitar on Jul 11, 2018 9:47:58 GMT -6
First of....the hardware mixer chips on interfaces ARE a hardware digital mixer sans the physical controlls. totalmix isnt software....well, tehcnically it Is—but the same way ProTools was for 20 years—its just a control UI for a hardware mixer chips. Second, your (OP) current Focusrite has one. It probably wont do the intricate routing of totalmix....and probably doesnt have the reverb, but you already have it. This is kind of a misnormer “dsp on the interface”....theres always a dsp mixer on the interface. It just doesnt typically have reverbs and eq and compressors and such like have started in the last 10 years....having reverb dsp is not the only dsp. For latency free monitoring purposes,...they all have DSP mixers. Reverb or not. I believe that the Presonus Quantum is one of the only modern interface with "No DSP" if I understand correctly. That is how they were able to reduce the latency by so much. You pay a price to have that DSP. |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 11, 2018 9:57:49 GMT -6
^^^^^^
Unless I'm mistaken about the OP's interface, there should be very low latency-if any- when tracking with his current interface:
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Post by M57 on Jul 11, 2018 11:03:26 GMT -6
Unless I'm mistaken about the OP's interface, there should be very low latency-if any- when tracking with his current interface Thanks swurveman . I was doing it a different way than in the video, but you're right. I just won't have any verb if I stay with the Liquid 56, which is not really a big deal. The real reason to upgrade to the MOTU piece is for the ESS Converters and extra headroom, right? But to recreate feature-wise what I have in my current box I need to spend about a grand for the Motu 828ES. So I guess I have to ask myself, are those converters worth the money? Or is that kind of money better spent elsewhere in the studio? BTW, the way shown in the video is awesome. I don't know how I never found that one before. |
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Post by swurveman on Jul 11, 2018 11:42:42 GMT -6
Unless I'm mistaken about the OP's interface, there should be very low latency-if any- when tracking with his current interface Thanks swurveman . I was doing it a different way than in the video, but you're right. I just won't have any verb if I stay with the Liquid 56, which is not really a big deal. The real reason to upgrade to the MOTU piece is for the ESS Converters and extra headroom, right? But to recreate feature-wise what I have in my current box I need to spend about a grand for the Motu 828ES. So I guess I have to ask myself, are those converters worth the money? Or is that kind of money better spent elsewhere in the studio? BTW, the way shown in the video is awesome. I don't know how I never found that one before. Check your manual. I can use my interface's dsp mixer to route to a hardware verb that I can use for cue mixes. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 11, 2018 12:52:53 GMT -6
Unless I'm mistaken about the OP's interface, there should be very low latency-if any- when tracking with his current interface Thanks swurveman . I was doing it a different way than in the video, but you're right. I just won't have any verb if I stay with the Liquid 56, which is not really a big deal. The real reason to upgrade to the MOTU piece is for the ESS Converters and extra headroom, right? But to recreate feature-wise what I have in my current box I need to spend about a grand for the Motu 828ES. So I guess I have to ask myself, are those converters worth the money? Or is that kind of money better spent elsewhere in the studio? BTW, the way shown in the video is awesome. I don't know how I never found that one before. You can do a couple of things. The MOTU digital mixer has a dedicated stereo reverb bus (functions as a group with a dedicated mix return). The reverb strip has the same EQ and compressor controls as other channels. This can be sent into the main digital mix out (I *think* you can route the reverb bus to its own out in the matrix, but I'm not positive) You can have a digital verb in the built-in mixer and apply that to the cue feed only, while recording the dry. In that case, yes, when you play back from the DAW you will only be playing back the dry recorded version. To put verb, you'd have to add a plugin. But, you could monitor from the digital mix out as well as record that as a separate track in your DAW (one wet, one dry). That way your playback is what you heard through cue. Then, when you're done, either keep the wet or delete it and keep the dry. The other thing you could do - and this may be Reaper specific, I'm not sure - is apply an FX on the way in. Reaper allows you to permanent edit on the way in using a plugin. Same thing, you could send the dry signal in to two tracks, one with the verb applied on the FX input, one recording only the verb. Mute the dry for playback. |
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Post by M57 on Jul 12, 2018 7:32:40 GMT -6
I'm scrounging up a bit more $ thinking maybe I can do better than the Focusrite 828preES with its 2 mic preamps. For a couple hundred more, the 8pre-ES sports 8 mic-pres, but has a lot lest outputs, which begs a few questions. How good are the Motu preamps? All of these things have ADAT inputs, but I'll be damned if there are but a handful of pre's out there with ADAT outputs. Most of them cost 2 to 3 times what the interface costs.
For an extra $100 ($1300) the Apollo Twin MKII QUAD 2x6 still only offers two mic pres with NO additional line inputs (the DI doesn't count, right?), which begs another question.. Why so much money for the Apollo? are the mic pres that much better? ..the A/D converters? or am I really paying for those DSP modules (many of which are "legacy," which I think is code for "You're going to want to buy the good stuff."
Really, I have enough mic pres to get by so I need the inputs. If there was an affordable way to use the ADAT inputs, I could consider the Apollo, but for instance, the cheapest thing I can find at sweetwater is the RME ADI-2 for a grand ..and that's only two channels! Obviously, that's not its intended use. I mean, the Apollo just makes no sense unless you're using those ADAT inputs, right?
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Post by Guitar on Jul 12, 2018 7:46:56 GMT -6
For expanding the ADAT of most interfaces I recommend the Presonus DP88. They are $699 and sometimes you can get them less.
You have the choice of using the XMAX preamps, or bypassing them for a straight to AD line input. The conversion on these is very good.
Honestly, if I was really concerned about preamps, I wouldn't be looking at interface pres, I'd be thinking about lunchboxes and line inputs. Although that does start to add up $$.
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Post by subspace on Jul 12, 2018 8:06:43 GMT -6
Really, I have enough mic pres to get by so I need the inputs. If there was an affordable way to use the ADAT inputs, I could consider the Apollo, but for instance, the cheapest thing I can find at sweetwater is the RME ADI-2 for a grand ..and that's only two channels! Obviously, that's not its intended use. I mean, the Apollo just makes no sense unless you're using those ADAT inputs, right? The most affordable way would be using the Focusrite in stand-alone mode as an ADAT expander: Saffire Pro Stand-alone Manual |
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Post by M57 on Jul 12, 2018 9:13:02 GMT -6
For expanding the ADAT of most interfaces I recommend the Presonus DP88. They are $699 and sometimes you can get them less. You have the choice of using the XMAX preamps, or bypassing them for a straight to AD line input. The conversion on these is very good. Honestly, if I was really concerned about preamps, I wouldn't be looking at interface pres, I'd be thinking about lunchboxes and line inputs. Although that does start to add up $$. Thanks Guitar I saw the DP88. Amazing that there aren't many other options. RE inputs: Normally, I never use more than three mics at a time (when I record piano). I have a couple of nice 500 series pres and and a 19" rack pre. Two inputs at the interface is one too few, and the cost of an A/D converter to bring in that third input is excruciatingly expensive. On the other hand, subspace 's solution using my LS56 is absolutely brilliant! If the A/D converters work in stand alone mode, all I'll need is an ADAT cable! So, last call. Given that I will be able to use the Apollo along with the Saffire 56, what does the Apollo have going for it that should make me consider it over the Motu gear? |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 12, 2018 9:18:59 GMT -6
The 828es might be a more streamlined setup. Then you could completely ignore the Saffire and put it away somewhere else.
Somebody said recently the reason you buy a UAD interface is basically "The plugins." So that's something to think about. UAD has great plugins, but native options are getting much better these days. For example the Console 1 stuff from sotftube people are talking about, and the Softube Tape, etc.
It's a tough call, because both of your options would certainly "work."
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Post by stormymondays on Jul 12, 2018 13:08:23 GMT -6
Have you looked at Audient stuff?
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Post by M57 on Jul 12, 2018 13:48:00 GMT -6
Have you looked at Audient stuff? Looking at the iD44 right now. Pretty impressive feature set and price point. My only nit of note is that it uses an external PS, probably a wall wart because they don't show it. Oddly enough, only inputs 3 and 4 support line level. 1 and 2 are mic level only. But I'm thinking I should be able to trick it by using the returns for channels 1 and 2 and end up with 4 line level inputs if I want. The question from there is whether or not the peak level and/or software metering is post return. Then obviously there's the question of the quality of the converters and how they stand up to Motu, Apollo, etc. They don't explicitly say that they use Burr-Brown converters when I scroll through specs. They just say that they are "next generation" and use "all new high performance ... technology." That could be a good thing because they don't want to upset their Burr-Brown customers with news that these are better converters. Specs: AD = 120dB DA = 126dB DAC THD + N = 0.0007% Motu has theirs at -107dB. Don't know how to compare apples against oranges. EDIT found it - Audient at -104dB so not quite as quiet. The mic pres come in at -127dB EIN and a dynamic range of 120dB. Motu 828ES's mic pre specs are similar. |
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Post by Guitar on Jul 12, 2018 14:28:19 GMT -6
I just remembered the DP88 is a Burr-Brown type of thing. As well as the Tascam UH-7000 and iD22 as mentioned before.
They all sound a little different. It's fun to pretend to hear what I think is similar about these three.
Everybody's talking about the ESS Sabre stuff now, presumably because the Symphony MK II sounds so good. The MOTU 828es apparently has the same ones.
As well as the Pro Ject Pre Box Digital S2 and the Topping D50, for stereo DACs. I'll probably try one of these << to see what the fuss is about.
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Post by BenjaminAshlin on Jul 12, 2018 15:57:39 GMT -6
I have to admit i didn't know about the 828es until last week. Does anyone know if it is 2 mic inputs + 8 line inputs or are the from mic pres paralleled with the rear line inputs?
The presonus looks interesting but i can't find it over here.
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Post by M57 on Jul 12, 2018 16:07:11 GMT -6
I have to admit i didn't know about the 828es until last week. Does anyone know if it is 2 mic inputs + 8 line inputs or are the from mic pres paralleled with the rear line inputs? I'm pretty sure they are separate inputs. I.e, you can use them simultaneously and have 10 line inputs if you want. |
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Post by matt@IAA on Jul 12, 2018 18:04:33 GMT -6
On all of the avb lines you can use all of the IO simultaneously.
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