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Post by M57 on Jun 29, 2018 8:48:09 GMT -6
My iMac just died and I'm ordering a new one, which should arrive in week or so. Of course, firewire is a thing of the past so I've also ordered an firewire to usb adapter so I can use my Focusrite Liquid 56. But that got me to thinking ..the Focusrite is approximately a 10 year old design. The latest software update is Dec 2015, and though it worked fine with my previous iMac, on occasion I had to re-load patches. So I'm going to give it a shot, but I'm wondering if it is at all something that I should consider upgrading. I have a MacBook Pro that I use for my day job so I was thinking perhaps I could get a smaller portable interface and keep the 56 on hand if I ever need a bunch of inputs. I've got a handful of pre-amps, so I would prefer something that has at least 2 but preferably 4 line inputs. A pair of pre-amps seems to be pretty standard on most of these and I'm sure they will come in handy. My budget is to keep things under 1k, and of course there are the usual suspects. The Motu 624 Fits the bill the Apoggee Element 46 (with remote) doesn't have any analog outputs! How would I get sound to my speakers?? I'm intriqued by the Apollo line with on-board effects, but even the Solo only has two analog inputs, and I'm not sure how to affordably take advantage of its optical input so I can use my old-school gear? The Steinberg UR-RT4 caught my eye. Actually, the RT-2 would probably do the trick. The price points suggests that these are more mid level, but you never know these days with some of the newer tech. Of course, I could also be deceived by Mr. Neve's endorsement/input and be buying an over-priced entry level product? I could just replace what I have with a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre, and I'll never need for pre-amps. At the very top of my budget, Antelope's interface looks like a loaded Apollo and it has 4 inputs! Generally speaking, I'm wondering how much of a sonic improvement these devices have over the 56 (I rarely use its pre-amps) and any other thoughts/suggestions folks might have in the <$1k range. I should be taking advantage of thunderbolt and not USB, right? Can I expect a significant improvement where latency is concerned?
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Post by matt@IAA on Jun 29, 2018 10:02:58 GMT -6
I’ve only worked with three interfaces, but the Motu AVB stuff has been by far my favorite. I have a 1248 and a 16A. I don’t use the preamps often on the 1248 but it’s useful for the integrated headphone and monitor levels. If the 624 had been out when I was shopping I probably would have picked it up.
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Post by indiehouse on Jun 29, 2018 10:27:48 GMT -6
Motu just released a new 8pre ES with ESS Sabre DA’s. Cheap enough around 1200. Bet you could find someone willing to give you a better price.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 29, 2018 10:29:14 GMT -6
My iMac just died and I'm ordering a new one, which should arrive in week or so. Of course, firewire is a thing of the past so I've also ordered an firewire to usb adapter so I can use my Focusrite Liquid 56. But that got me to thinking ..the Focusrite is approximately a 10 year old design. The latest software update is Dec 2015, and though it worked fine with my previous iMac, on occasion I had to re-load patches. So I'm going to give it a shot, but I'm wondering if it is at all something that I should consider upgrading. I have a MacBook Pro that I use for my day job so I was thinking perhaps I could get a smaller portable interface and keep the 56 on hand if I ever need a bunch of inputs. I've got a handful of pre-amps, so I would prefer something that has at least 2 but preferably 4 line inputs. A pair of pre-amps seems to be pretty standard on most of these and I'm sure they will come in handy. My budget is to keep things under 1k, and of course there are the usual suspects. The Motu 624 Fits the bill the Apoggee Element 46 (with remote) doesn't have any analog outputs! How would I get sound to my speakers?? I'm intriqued by the Apollo line with on-board effects, but even the Solo only has two analog inputs, and I'm not sure how to affordably take advantage of its optical input so I can use my old-school gear? The Steinberg UR-RT4 caught my eye. Actually, the RT-2 would probably do the trick. The price points suggests that these are more mid level, but you never know these days with some of the newer tech. Of course, I could also be deceived by Mr. Neve's endorsement/input and be buying an over-priced entry level product? I could just replace what I have with a Focusrite Clarett 8Pre, and I'll never need for pre-amps. At the very top of my budget, Antelope's interface looks like a loaded Apollo and it has 4 inputs! Generally speaking, I'm wondering how much of a sonic improvement these devices have over the 56 (I rarely use its pre-amps) and any other thoughts/suggestions folks might have in the <$1k range. I should be taking advantage of thunderbolt and not USB, right? Can I expect a significant improvement where latency is concerned? The 46 has a pair of speaker outputs on the back. www.apogeedigital.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/Element46_Product_Tour.jpgThat MOTU looks like a nice unit. Spec's are good. Decent I/O. I imagine it would be a nice step up in quality from what you have. I have a Focusrite Scarlett interface and think it sounds like junk.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 29, 2018 10:29:48 GMT -6
Motu just released a new 8pre ES with ESS Sabre DA’s. Cheap enough around 1200. Bet you could find someone willing to give you a better price. The 624 he mentioned has the ESS Sabre too.
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Post by M57 on Jun 29, 2018 10:42:59 GMT -6
Perhaps some of the more important questions..
If the Firewire -> Thunderbolt adapter works, will my old saffire have similar latency/performance as the current interfaces - like the clarett, motu, apollo etc., all of which have a thunderbolt connectivity?
I'll be using my outboard pres most of the time, so assuming I'll be mostly using line inputs, how will the saffire's A/D converters measure up to those of the current models?
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Post by M57 on Jun 29, 2018 10:55:30 GMT -6
Don't know how I missed that. But with no other outputs, routing looks painful if I ever wanted to bounce a track through any outboard gear - not to mention if I want to create a custom headphone mix.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 29, 2018 12:20:47 GMT -6
Perhaps some of the more important questions.. If the Firewire -> Thunderbolt adapter works, will my old saffire have similar latency/performance as the current interfaces - like the clarett, motu, apollo etc., all of which have a thunderbolt connectivity? I'll be using my outboard pres most of the time, so assuming I'll be mostly using line inputs, how will the saffire's A/D converters measure up to those of the current models? Liquid Saffire:Line Inputs - Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 109dB Line Outputs: Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 108dB Motu 624:
Line Inputs - Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 117 dB Line Outputs: Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 123dB
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Post by mulmany on Jun 29, 2018 12:20:56 GMT -6
Thunderbolt latency should be the best. My Motu 16a running at 96k on a full mix with analog inserts only shows 24 sample system delay. Full round trip I/O delay is 83 samples, using the record with insert I/O method. I have not had anyone complain about monitor delay while tracking since going to the 16a on tbolt.
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Post by jcoutu1 on Jun 29, 2018 12:21:26 GMT -6
Don't know how I missed that. But with no other outputs, routing looks painful if I ever wanted to bounce a track through any outboard gear - not to mention if I want to create a custom headphone mix. It has the pair of headphone outputs on the front too. Still, not idea for outputs. I'd personally go for the Motu over the Apogee.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 29, 2018 13:45:51 GMT -6
When you use an adaptor to pass fw over tbolt, i don’t think it turns it into pci-e so your latency would be the same as FW, I think ?
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Post by M57 on Jun 29, 2018 13:53:30 GMT -6
When you use an adaptor to pass fw over tbolt, i don’t think it turns it into pci-e so your latency would be the same as FW, I think ? That makes sense. If so, how much of a difference is there?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 29, 2018 14:18:44 GMT -6
I don’t know exactly as it is also a function of the drivers .
In your budget the apollo twin would be nice. Does the older interface have adat out?
Personally, I’d forget about the past and invest in your future.
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Post by M57 on Jun 29, 2018 15:06:42 GMT -6
In your budget the apollo twin would be nice. Does the older interface have adat out? If by adat, you mean optical I/O, then yes.. global.focusrite.com/firewire-audio-interfaces/liquid-saffire-56/imagesThe apollo twin doesn't have any extra inputs. ..unless you're thinking I could use the focusrite inputs/preamps and route them via adat??? Is that possible? What are the advantages of the Apollo? At the same pricepoint it doesn't sport as many physical features as the Motu. Latency looks to be about the same, with both claiming under 2ms. Like the Apollo, the Motu also comes with an effects engine within its frame - though Motu doesn't elect to hype its processors like Apollo hypes the SHARK processors. UAD wants to charge me for extra plugs. Besides, I have the Slate bundle and with my new computer, I'll have much better processing capabilities, right?
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 29, 2018 16:28:27 GMT -6
On Apollo models that feature optical S/PDIF input - this includes Apollo Twin, Apollo Twin MkII, and Apollo 8p - the same optical jack that is used for optical ADAT input is also used for optical S/PDIF input, meaning ADAT and S/PDIF cannot be used at the same time.
On Apollo models that feature coaxial S/PDIF input - this includes Apollo FireWire and Apollo 8 - the coaxial input jacks are separate from the optical input jacks, meaning ADAT and S/PDIF can be used at the same time. [
2 paras above I copied from a ua document on line.
so, looks like you can input your device to a twin and they would show up in console ?
I haven’t used the motu although many here do and seem very happy with it.
Every apollo comes with a suite of plug ins so you wouldn’t have to buy anything initially , although you might choose to later ?
I don’t know if motu users who also use ua believe their plug ins to be equivalent but I can honestly say I have not heard that expressed?
UA plugs in console while tracking largely eliminates latency as the apollo is the front end to your daw. Again, motu users could speak to what their latency while tracking experience is like.
Any way, doesn’t really matter to me what you buy as long as the workflow and quality are what you want .
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Post by mhbunch on Jun 29, 2018 16:41:24 GMT -6
I picked up an Element 24 for super cheap on Craigslist a few months ago as a bandaid until I can save up for a bigger system.
The conversion has blown me away. I have it hooked up to my old FireWire ensemble for sends and extra inputs. The difference between the ensemble and element conversion is night and day. It sounds even a little more “open” than the symphony mki at the studio I work out of.
If you work with Logic the new “zero latency” integration is amazing.
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Post by Guitar on Jun 29, 2018 17:00:52 GMT -6
I'm messing around with the Presonus Quantum, still kind of using the Focusrite Clarett.
Both are great. The Quantum takes low latency to the next level.
I also really like the Tascam stuff I use a UH-7000, and if you need something bigger they have the Celesonic 20x20 which I would really like to try.
All of this stuff is in your price range!
UA gets too expensive, for what it is, I would stick to native at this time. Or just buy a UAD satellite if you want to use a few of the plugins.
I can't recommend any MAC stuff as I am a Windows user.
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 6:43:27 GMT -6
Liquid Saffire:Line Inputs - Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 109dB Line Outputs: Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 108dB Motu 624:
Line Inputs - Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 117 dB Line Outputs: Dynamic Range (A-Weighted): 123dB Thanks, jcoutu1 Sorry for the dumb question (and this is for everyone), but how significant are these numbers? I don't doubt that they are, but at face value it seems to me that you shouldn't need anywhere near that kind of dynamic range when you consider the threshold and range of hearing in a normal listening environment. So I can only assume it becomes relevant when you start stacking tracks. I'm not looking for a dissertation with higher math - just a general explanation. EDIT: A little math is OK
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 30, 2018 9:38:43 GMT -6
Well, remember we are not just concerned about s/n but usable dynamic range in the digital context.
What we don’t want is clipping, so these numbers are also in a way an indicator of headroom or usable range?
All interfaces have good specs now a days: sonics and then features are what counts ?
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Post by M57 on Jun 30, 2018 9:54:30 GMT -6
All interfaces have good specs now a days: sonics and then features are what counts ? Exactly.. So why should I care about the difference between 109 and 117 db? Will I notice the difference if I'm recording a 1+1, or will it take a track count of 20+ to notice? ..or is that not the point/advantage of having more headroom?
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Post by Guitar on Jun 30, 2018 10:15:09 GMT -6
Something with "spec-tacular" specs is more likely to sound great... in my experience. Whatever the science may be, I've just found there to be at least some correlation.
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Post by kcatthedog on Jun 30, 2018 10:27:42 GMT -6
All interfaces have good specs now a days: sonics and then features are what counts ? Exactly.. So why should I care about the difference between 109 and 117 db? Will I notice the difference if I'm recording a 1+1, or will it take a track count of 20+ to notice? ..or is that not the point/advantage of having more headroom? ah my implicit point was not to worry about this and just see it as an indicator of lots of usable dynamic range and clean signal before clipping, I doubt in 20 tracks you will hear much cumulative noise from the interface, unless it is crap, but you are more likely to hear cumulative noise for your source recordings and signal chains s/n ratio ?
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Post by M57 on Jul 9, 2018 4:51:23 GMT -6
So I think I've got things narrowed down to the Motu 624 or 828ES. As far as I can tell the 624 has ESS converters, though for some reason that fact is buried on the features page and not included in the title/description.
I've decided that I want the unit to be "portable," and both units have a pair of mic preamps - not that I'll use them much. People seem to either love or hate the Focusrite Clarett pres, but I haven't heard anyone diss Motu's mic pres. Regardless, the D/A converters are much more important for me.
That said, I don't really NEED all the inputs of the 828, but I don't like the fact that the 624 only has one headphone output. I hate the idea of paying $200 for an extra headphone output, but the cost and inconvenience(when I'm traveling) of using a headphone distribution amp makes the 624 a lot less appetizing. Oh, who am I kidding - just use a splitter and deal with it ..right?
This is more curiosity than concern, but why do some of these have old school MIDI I/O ports. Don't all current controllers use USB B-> A cables? I mean - I've never used the MIDI ports in the back of my current interface. I just plug my controllers right into the computer.
Oh yeah, and another question.. on the 624, there are "guitar" inputs on the front. How are they different than the 1/4" inputs on the back? Do they use a different impedance ..or can they be used interchangeably as line inputs?
EDIT: 624 has tiny knobs for volume - that's a pretty big minus. 624 has an external PSU - I hate wall warts. Hmmm..
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Post by Guitar on Jul 9, 2018 6:24:43 GMT -6
I use MIDI all the time with my hardware synthesizers. Some of my vintage synths, that's your only option anyway.
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Post by Tbone81 on Jul 9, 2018 15:23:25 GMT -6
I've had instances where old school midi ports/cables work better than USB/midi. Much less buggy. Couldn't tell you why though
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