|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 11, 2018 9:51:13 GMT -6
I had popped the top off the Symphony MKII, and they are using the same 9018 ESS chip on the DA for both the MKI and MKII cards (I have one of each). Motu uses the ESS 9016. So the Symphony is two better? I guess I was just making an observation that the DA between the MKI and the MKII is really, really close. And that the DA between the Symphony and the Motu is really similar as well, they’re using similar converter chips. I know it’s not just strictly about the chip, but I think of it like a capsule, making the biggest difference. Of course, all the other little things add up as well. I think I was just observing the Motu and Symphony (MKI and MKII) DA are both using similar chips.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 11, 2018 11:37:09 GMT -6
Thanks, I must have read that and scrambled it inside my head. I should have checked that before I posted. I did find a DAC out there called the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 that uses the 9038PRO and it has a hilarious asking price of $8,000. That little Pro-Ject S2 had 9038’s!
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 11, 2018 11:40:54 GMT -6
Thanks, I must have read that and scrambled it inside my head. I should have checked that before I posted. I did find a DAC out there called the Ayre Acoustics QX-5 that uses the 9038PRO and it has a hilarious asking price of $8,000. That little Pro-Ject S2 had 9038’s! yeah but the Q2M version of the chip (low V) not the PRO version. I am still a bit mystified by that little box. I was able to hear things so clearly and so deeply in songs I've heard 1,000s of time, kind of crazy. I've never heard anything like that. I could hear Ocean Way Studio B in vivid detail on the BACKGROUND guitars in 2+2=5 by Radiohead. On most playback systems they simply blend together with the main tracks. In retrospect I should have pulled out some reference quality classical recordings and chew on those a bit. I think I'm going to try to save up for a Topping DX7S which should be similar, on paper any way, but a little more highly specified. With balanced outputs, internal power supply, and so on. That thing is $500 though... I need to find my $500 cause that shit was crazy.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 11, 2018 12:11:34 GMT -6
Hey jimwilliams what do you think of the Topping DX7S? TOPPING DX7s is a full balanced DAC & headphone amp with USB, Coaxial, Optical, AES input and Line Out, XLR, 6.35 headphone and balanced headphone output. DX7s use XMOS(XU208) + 2 x ES9038Q2M + 4 x OPA1612 for DAC DX7s use customized drivers(Win 7 or above) from Thesycon, all these factors makes DX7s support 32bit/768kHz and DSD512(Native). USB IN :44.1kHz-768kHz/16Bit-32Bit、DSD64-DSD256(Dop)、DSD64-DSD512(Native) COAX OUT: 44.1kHz-192kHz/16Bit-24B
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 11, 2018 12:23:31 GMT -6
One thing to note is the rail to rail voltage on the audio op amps in the DX7s is significantly higher than the Pro Ject S2, as you would expect for a balanced output powered by a linear internal power supply.
You have to assume the Burr Brown op amps are going to sound different than the ESS gain stage as well. How that might actually sound, who knows. Just different.
A really interesting thing about these two (DX7S, Pro Ject S2) is identical dual-mono ESS9038Q2M DAC chips. It would be a fun thing to hear them side by side, to hear what differences the rest of the circuit might introduce.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 11, 2018 12:38:45 GMT -6
I had popped the top off the Symphony MKII, and they are using the same 9018 ESS chip on the DA for both the MKI and MKII cards (I have one of each). Motu uses the ESS 9016. So the Symphony is two better? "Well, it's one louder, innit?"
|
|
|
Post by EmRR on Aug 11, 2018 13:05:01 GMT -6
I don't have a horse in the clock race, but it reminds me of a dither Cranesong used to provide on a CD long ago, I think it was some sort of variable sweep, which made everything sound phattter and wyder......so many tricks, so many 'wrong' ways of doing things we like the sound of better. Everyone loves their old broken tube gear at least until they get it fixed, then they often feel they lost something by having it work right again.
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Aug 11, 2018 13:06:16 GMT -6
Hey jimwilliams what do you think of the Topping DX7S? TOPPING DX7s is a full balanced DAC & headphone amp with USB, Coaxial, Optical, AES input and Line Out, XLR, 6.35 headphone and balanced headphone output. DX7s use XMOS(XU208) + 2 x ES9038Q2M + 4 x OPA1612 for DAC DX7s use customized drivers(Win 7 or above) from Thesycon, all these factors makes DX7s support 32bit/768kHz and DSD512(Native). USB IN :44.1kHz-768kHz/16Bit-32Bit、DSD64-DSD256(Dop)、DSD64-DSD512(Native) COAX OUT: 44.1kHz-192kHz/16Bit-24B I was going to get that one but it doesn't decode MQA And that's basically the same specs for the S2 besides the balanced outs. More money than the S2 and doesn't utilize the ESS surrounding parts like the voltage reg and the ESS headphone amp (Ahhmazing) that the S2 uses. Also I don't think the specs on clocking are near as good as the S2. I did a ton of research and shopping before I finally listened to Jim and got the S2, I came really close to buying the DX7S only because it had balanced outs, when honestly the unbalanced outs are just as good. It also could be that my Antelope Satori compensates, but from what the others said in the S2 thread, they're more than happy with it.
|
|
|
Post by Guitar on Aug 11, 2018 13:40:45 GMT -6
MQA was a little buggy using Tidal with the Pro Ject. This is a known issue seemingly related to the firmware or drivers. It was one of the things I didn't love about it, I guess.
Not a huge deal though considering the whole package.
And you are right, the Pro Ject has better specs 'on paper' than the Topping.
At least the 3 specs people seem to be familiar with (dynamic range, THD+N, clocking). When I'm looking through the Audio Science Review thread I am wondering if there are other important measurements that don't necessarily "make it" to the Spec sheets of these products.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2018 18:11:16 GMT -6
Seriously not trying to one up you my friend, because I get paid the same irrelavent. I just like to share the wealth where I can, I've been doing this my entire working career.. Yeah I took a short and misguided recess into "pro" mixing and mastering (I use that term loosely), but if I gotta be honest even then I did contracts to supplement it.
When it comes to the sound of something, it all becomes somewhat irrelevant.. I've heard industry vets jump up and down due to some seriously technically inferior equipment. I did check out the MRX 816, in terms of specifications and layout it ain't all that great but the amount of people that swooned over it was incredible.
I'm talking about the technical side of things, not what somebodys ears prefer because that's just a myriad of random contradictions.. Also technically superior ain't always "the best" check out Neumann for e.g., their obsession with "better" lead to the TLM's LOL!..
first off, I only understand the most basic of basics. But I've often wondered if people actually prefer the sonics of jittery clocking with their external clocks - and that's what's fueled the external clock rage. Wouldn't be the first time people preferred "sonically inferior" over "technically better".
Probably so, little anecdote here.. I used to work on modulater systems over x.25 for all sorts of retail services, think modem credit card services and because lease / TDM lines are expensive they'd run their fax / voice systems over the same service.
There's a technology called VAD, the purpose of it is to save bandwidth.. Network systems can be far more complex than studio applications devices, this one of many thousands of filter types essentially splits packets into speach, silence and unknown.
Whenever you get a silence packet below the filter threshold it essentially gets discarded, which is good because carriers allow you to burst traffic but if you exceed specific bandwidth threshold SDWAN's / QOS (control mechanisms) remove random packets (which ain't good)..
Although, what happens in practice without "comfort noise" (which in studio applications we try to eliminate) is rather odd.. 9 / 10 times it would result in a user saying "hello, helooo?" or even hanging up the phone due to a sudden drop into absolute silence.
An even better one, we were developing an adapative wide band codec for music streaming. Dependant on they amount of bandwidth available to it the codec could stream anywhere from 128kbps to 320.. One of the tests were the exact same codec played side by side with the equivalent of a clear 100mbps DSL and the results were split, we had explanations anywhere from "this has more emotion" to "the bass is better in example A"..
They were the exact same thing, so what I've honestly learnt over the course of my career is it ain't straight forward and whatever floats your boat.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 13, 2018 17:08:04 GMT -6
Soooo.... Got it. Been listening for about 45 minutes. Just through itunes and since I don't have a switcher, I'm having to reach behind and move cables...But damn. I mean damn. The Motu DA is really close to the Symphony. Here's what I hear. indiehouse tell me if you think similarly - I think I read you saying some things I'm about to say. Let me preface this by saying these are both incredible sounding DAs. These things won't be the reason you don't win a Grammy. I hear the Symphony MkII being a little more effortless in the top end. I know we've all accused the Symphony of being a little pillowy on top - and that seems to hold true here. It's softer - which could account for why it sounds a little more effortless. However, that makes the Motu sound a little more "exciting" switching back and forth. It also makes you want to accuse the top end of the Motu as being more "harsh"...but harsh isn't the right word because it's not painful - it's just a little more clinical on top. I also think the Symphony is a little tighter on bottom. That's really the only way I can describe the bottom end - and I'm reaching a little because the Motu sounds great down low. Here's an interesting thing. I swear I think the Motu has a little wider soundstage. I swear. Maybe it's that I'm hearing more top end info. I have been daisy chaining a monitor, a UA satellite and the Symphony via Thunderbolt. The Symphony has two Tbolt connections, so I can run in and then run out. The 16A only has one...so I just hooked up USB for the time being. I've had a few glitches and dropouts. Which is kind of scary. I noticed there's a firmware update available - tried to update it, but I keep getting an error. Wondering if I need to be connected via Tbolt? The software interface is a little daunting right now...So - it's browser based? What happens if the internet is down? Doesn't matter?
|
|
|
Post by notneeson on Aug 13, 2018 18:10:25 GMT -6
John, not sure about this gear, but there are def routers that are browser configurable without an internet connection. Maybe something similar going on here.
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Aug 13, 2018 18:16:21 GMT -6
The interface is browser based. It can be accessed either via localhost (usb/tbolt) or via Ethernet directly. You can also get to it on the browser from anything on the same local network via WiFi or Ethernet which is awesome. But it’s all local, no internet needed.
To update the firmware you have to connect with an Ethernet cable directly because it may update the usb drivers.
Also there are a few configuration guides for the matrix routing online which are really helpful. But basically anything can go anywhere.
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 13, 2018 18:58:28 GMT -6
Holy crap. I’m really lost in the software...can’t figure out how to monitor the master out into my headphone system. Ugh...figured out how to record and monitor, but can’t figure out how to hear playback. Learning a new interface software intimidates the hell of me...
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 13, 2018 18:59:14 GMT -6
Got the firmware updated.
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on Aug 13, 2018 19:19:54 GMT -6
The Apollo 8 Duo 18x24 with DSP is basically the same price as the Motu 16A. Why would someone choose the Motu out of curiosity...
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 13, 2018 19:20:12 GMT -6
Soooo.... Got it. Been listening for about 45 minutes. Just through itunes and since I don't have a switcher, I'm having to reach behind and move cables...But damn. I mean damn. The Motu DA is really close to the Symphony. Here's what I hear. indiehouse tell me if you think similarly - I think I read you saying some things I'm about to say. Let me preface this by saying these are both incredible sounding DAs. These things won't be the reason you don't win a Grammy. I hear the Symphony MkII being a little more effortless in the top end. I know we've all accused the Symphony of being a little pillowy on top - and that seems to hold true here. It's softer - which could account for why it sounds a little more effortless. However, that makes the Motu sound a little more "exciting" switching back and forth. It also makes you want to accuse the top end of the Motu as being more "harsh"...but harsh isn't the right word because it's not painful - it's just a little more clinical on top. I also think the Symphony is a little tighter on bottom. That's really the only way I can describe the bottom end - and I'm reaching a little because the Motu sounds great down low. Here's an interesting thing. I swear I think the Motu has a little wider soundstage. I swear. Maybe it's that I'm hearing more top end info. I have been daisy chaining a monitor, a UA satellite and the Symphony via Thunderbolt. The Symphony has two Tbolt connections, so I can run in and then run out. The 16A only has one...so I just hooked up USB for the time being. I've had a few glitches and dropouts. Which is kind of scary. I noticed there's a firmware update available - tried to update it, but I keep getting an error. Wondering if I need to be connected via Tbolt? The software interface is a little daunting right now...So - it's browser based? What happens if the internet is down? Doesn't matter? Yeah, that’s pretty much what I heard as well. And I get what your saying about the top end. I think that could be changed, if wanted, by any number of 2-bus treatment options. Zulu comes to mind. I’ve got mine last in the chain feeding into a UAD satellite and a monitor, all via thunderbolt. Works fine. It’s browser based, but only locally. No internet needed. And yeah, it’s a little daunting at first, but only because it’s sooo flexible. You can pretty much route anything to anywhere. I let it overwhelm and discourage me the first time around. This time, I’m taking my time to learn it well.
|
|
|
Post by indiehouse on Aug 13, 2018 19:22:40 GMT -6
The Apollo 8 Duo 18x24 with DSP is basically the same price as the Motu 16A. Why would someone choose the Motu out of curiosity... I think you only get 8 analog i/o with the Apollo 8. You get double that on the Motu 16a.
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on Aug 13, 2018 19:24:51 GMT -6
Yes you are correct but the Motu is all 1/4" TRS inputs if that matters to anyone.
|
|
|
Post by the other mark williams on Aug 13, 2018 19:27:28 GMT -6
Holy crap. I’m really lost in the software...can’t figure out how to monitor the master out into my headphone system. Ugh...figured out how to record and monitor, but can’t figure out how to hear playback. Learning a new interface software intimidates the hell of me... I'm not a MOTU user, but I imagine there has to be a YouTube video (or 3) where someone walks through the DSP mixer and explains routing. Sounds like it might be a bit complicated, but therefore very flexible. And once you have it set up how you need it to work, it just works. Keep at it, John!
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Aug 13, 2018 19:28:31 GMT -6
Holy crap. I’m really lost in the software...can’t figure out how to monitor the master out into my headphone system. Ugh...figured out how to record and monitor, but can’t figure out how to hear playback. Learning a new interface software intimidates the hell of me... Go to the matrix and you should see your Analog 1-16 outputs in the matrix. Set whichever Analog jack is feeding your headphone output to DAW or Computer 1-2 input by clicking the box so there’s a blue square where the top and left meet. Then, in your DAW you should see output 1-2 as headphone L and R (or whatever you have named them).
|
|
|
Post by Johnkenn on Aug 13, 2018 19:28:33 GMT -6
Why would that matter? Also, the Apollo 8 is trs too
|
|
|
Post by matt@IAA on Aug 13, 2018 19:31:42 GMT -6
The thing that took me a bit to “get” is that there is no inherent mapping of analog input and output to what your DAW sees as input 1 thru whatever. I mean, on my old interface output 1 was always monitor L. On the MOTU anything can be 1. So you set it up, and whatever you have labeled in the matrix passes through to your DAW, which is super nice.
|
|
|
Post by yotonic on Aug 13, 2018 19:34:42 GMT -6
It says the Apollo 8 is 4 XLR inputs and 4 TRS. I personally prefer XLR simply because it interfaces better with most of my outboard. I'm actually intrigued by the Apollo because of the EMT Plates. I had a TC 4000 for a while but I just wasn't digging not having the convenience of a plug in with saving settings right in proTools etc. I've heard the EMT plate in the Apollo is pretty much as good as the TC 4000. Although I'm also happy with Vallhalla.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Aug 13, 2018 19:35:53 GMT -6
Why would that matter? Also, the Apollo 8 is trs too Silver face is 4 xlr and 4 trs. Black face is 8 combo ?
|
|