|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 28, 2018 12:26:04 GMT -6
If the client can afford for me to mix in the big room I print through a 1/2” ATR. Nothing sounds like that. Not even close. I have a buddy that just got one for his home rig - cards are at ATR Getting a once over and we will have it up and running. If you’ve never heard one it’s hard to explain how much better it actually is. And no, the plugin doesn’t even come close. I have a client who brought the same batch of mixes captured on 1/2" reels via his ATR and 24-96 digital via Manley Slam ADCs. We A/B'd, did test masters of both, and the ATR stood tall over the digital. Not a close call. Mixing through a console directly to tape is a beautiful thing. Too bad it's so rare...
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 28, 2018 13:17:13 GMT -6
Just curious as to what your thoughts would be trakworxmastering on some of the gear out there with the tape head and circuits. I've heard and used a couple of different ones and it reminded me a lot of how my old Otari MX80 gave a vibe. When we had big rock acts from Atlantic we always tracked the drums to it and dumped into PT. The tape EMU circuits I've heard give it the same feel. The OH's were tamed, snare had that full body and crack sound, kick felt tight etc. Just curious if printing off the repro head on your ATR would do 80%-90% of what you're getting with your ATR. That would answer my question basically. Which gear with tape head and circuits do you mean?
I have an MX-80 24 track and I use it a lot for basic tracking before dumping to PT. Clients love the sound.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by printing off the repro head.
Can you clarify?
There are some different ones.... Rupert Neve makes the 5042(?) that basically has the circuit of 2 individual channels of whatever machine they decided to emulate. They have an actual tape head that has coils that creates the magnetic flux. So instead of that coil or head applying the flux to the tape the audio signal is taken from there and that's your output. It kind of does the same thing of rounding the transients and creating the non linearities/harmonics but just doesn't burn it into tape, instead it sends that out at line level. I'm trying to remember the DIY company that makes a kit that does exactly the same thing, quite a bit cheaper than the RND but sounds great. My question to you was basically have you ever tried an analog tape emulation circuit to do what you're doing with your ATR. If actually needing to burn into the tape was necessary to create the sound a lot of us love about tape. I've not tried it on a 2 mix, but I've heard the tape emulation circuits on kicks, snares, vocals etc. and it had all of the tape feel and sound I remember from our MX80.
|
|
|
Mastering
Jun 28, 2018 13:50:41 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Jun 28, 2018 13:50:41 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jun 28, 2018 14:10:50 GMT -6
I've not used the Neve or any of that type so I can't comment from experience. I've read that it gets part of the tape sound but not all. That's my experience with all the Emus that I've tried - many plug-ins, and the Anamod ATS-1. Each one gets some aspects of tape sound but none gets all aspects. Tape sound is complicated, and every machine sounds different, what with repairs and modifications over the years, so it's a bit of a moving target. I did a big shootout and posted the files in a thread on "that other" forum a few years ago. Most people picked the real tape samples over the Emus. So as far as I know to date there are no emulations that fully replicate tape sound. But there are some new ones that may hold promise, like Zulu perhaps. I use tape plug-ins here and there when mixing. They have their uses. I hope I answered what you were asking.
|
|
ericn
Temp
Balance Engineer
Posts: 15,014
|
Post by ericn on Jun 28, 2018 15:46:49 GMT -6
No this is playback electronics for your tape deck.
|
|
|
Post by stormymondays on Jun 28, 2018 16:26:11 GMT -6
|
|
|
Post by Blackdawg on Jun 28, 2018 16:50:06 GMT -6
Nothing beats tape. Totally great sound and does some wonderful things.
But almost no one can justify the maintenance and upkeep on a mastering grade tape machine so to speak.
Still...I'd love to have an a810. That thing does magical stuff to the low end.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jun 28, 2018 17:10:23 GMT -6
I’ll check in with people but I may be able to post 4 versions of the same tune, 24@44.1 level matched: original 2 buss session mix, 1/2 inch 2 track mci and ampex and Zulu (raised with stam ssl).
Don’t think it will settle the debate, but would people enjoy that ?
|
|
|
Post by Ward on Jun 28, 2018 19:01:19 GMT -6
I’ll check in with people but I may be able to post 4 versions of the same tune, 24@44.1 level matched: original 2 buss session mix, 1/2 inch 2 track mci and ampex and Zulu (raised with stam ssl). Don’t think it will settle the debate, but would people enjoy that ? Well, that would be 'Super helpful', dude.
|
|
|
Post by jeromemason on Jun 28, 2018 19:21:26 GMT -6
Yeah that's the DIY version..... They're impressive.... The RND one as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2018 1:58:27 GMT -6
I've heard from various people that the Sound Skulptor tape thing is not really suitable for mastering unless heavily modded.
|
|
|
Post by jimwilliams on Jun 29, 2018 9:32:57 GMT -6
I have some Otari MTR record/play cards in now. They have a slow and cloudy sound that dulls the tape playback. Playback off the sync/record head is worse, band restricted and a poorer s/n ratio.
I remove the head amps on those designs and replace them with a super low noise opamp design. It's like after your ears pop landing in a jet. It's mostly for archive houses these days as the rockers seem to prefer a badly aligned tape sound.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Olhsson on Jun 29, 2018 10:14:33 GMT -6
Those stock Otaris reminded me of the worst aspects of Panasonic. What was frustrating is that the MTR-90-II was the only machine that really locked to timecode well.
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 2, 2018 10:34:49 GMT -6
Morning, As you know, I am considering my mastering options. If you are interested in comparing a session mix to one passed through: - Zulu ( stam 4k for gain)
- MCI (tape)
- ATR 102 (Tape).
Here are soundcloud links to the original files. These are all originally 24@44.1. The first 1 is my session mix at the level it was delivered at. Left it to the discretion of the ME/engineer to send it back as hot as they wanted given their knowledge of their gear , gain staging and sweet spots. I am only identifying the 1st as my session mix, so you are either listening based on previous experience with any of these platforms or with fresh ears . This is just for fun. In my comparisons in my daw, I have level matched. soundcloud.com/kcatthedog/1-she-sayssoundcloud.com/kcatthedog/2-she-sayssoundcloud.com/kcatthedog/3-she-sayssoundcloud.com/kcatthedog/4-she-saysI don't see this a a shoot out, just thought you might be interested in how the different platforms sound from the same file.
|
|
|
Mastering
Jul 2, 2018 11:10:39 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by christopher on Jul 2, 2018 11:10:39 GMT -6
Thanks for sharing! Others should listen for themselves befor reading my comments Disclaimer: Allergies are totally screwing up my ears this week Ok.. right away "2" is calling my name. Really well done congrats!. 3 something isn't right to me.. "4" is similar to "2" but not as much high end smack or something, might be able match it with a little EQ. So the winner here IMO... "2"
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 2, 2018 11:46:36 GMT -6
There are no fx in my daw and although I had to crop tops and then align the respective stereo mixes, each file above is bounced soloed so should be discreet from all the rest.
If people want the original wav files I just need an email for wetransfer.
|
|
|
Post by Martin John Butler on Jul 2, 2018 20:39:52 GMT -6
2
|
|
|
Post by christopher on Jul 5, 2018 12:25:09 GMT -6
I'm listening again now that my ears are feeling better, I think 3 and 4 both are really nice to listen to as well. I think 2 was brighter? So that might have maybe subconciously steered my first impression, I really like 4 a lot in a laid-back way. All the versions seemed to help out the original.
|
|
|
Mastering
Jul 5, 2018 16:07:20 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 5, 2018 16:07:20 GMT -6
If you compare the original to the others, the original has more dynamics, which could likely be problematic in the manufacturing process: creating the lacquer, plating and eventual records.
You can literally see how the tape(mci and ampex), are close but lower and more uniform in peak volume.
2 is mci 3 is Zulu plus stam ssl 4K for gain 4 is ampex
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 5, 2018 16:33:07 GMT -6
I just checked these on SoundCloud for the first time. 1, 3 and 4 are level matched but 2 is at least 3dB louder than the others on my Dorrough RMS meter. 3dB is a LOT when it comes to A/Bing mixes. Even 0.5dB can skew a listening test. Just something to take into account. Thanks for posting samples!
|
|
|
Mastering
Jul 5, 2018 17:23:40 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 5, 2018 17:23:40 GMT -6
Thank you for checking that’s odd as it doesn’t seem that way in my daw but I’ll double check.
But I wasn’t posting as a real shoot out, just wanted people to hear the different means from the same source.
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 5, 2018 17:29:46 GMT -6
Yeah, you stated that clearly, and naturally everyone immediately started picking favorites anyway - haha!
That's just human nature.
|
|
|
Mastering
Jul 5, 2018 17:52:05 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 5, 2018 17:52:05 GMT -6
In terms of the converters sending signal to the lathe to cut the lacquer, how important are they sonically or is it just a function of dynamics ?
|
|
|
Post by kcatthedog on Jul 5, 2018 17:53:12 GMT -6
Yeah, you stated that clearly, and naturally everyone immediately started picking favorites anyway - haha! That's just human nature. Can’t win for trying, can’t even be Master of my mastering thread: I’ m doomed !!
|
|
|
Post by trakworxmastering on Jul 5, 2018 18:02:29 GMT -6
Not sure what you're asking. Is that a question about converters?
Earlier you said that the original mix having more dynamics could be problematic for pressing vinyl. I think that's not really a problem for a cutting engineer. A bigger problem would be if there was a brickwall limiter or clipping.
But none of these samples are mastered at all, right? They're just a mix run through tape. Mastering has a way of making such problems go away. That's what it's for!
|
|