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Post by mcirish on Jun 7, 2018 8:39:05 GMT -6
Since receiving the LYD 48 monitors, I've been swapping around things in my studio. last night I started tweaking the position of the monitors and checked response with and without monitor isolation pads. I have some Auralex Mopads and also some neoprene pads (mouse pad). What are your thoughts on isolation pads? I understand the idea behind it. Decouple the monitors from the speaker stands and floor. I get that, but I do notice a loss in low mids and lows when using the Mopads. I'm feeling like the speakers are not solid to the stands enough because of the foam. My thought is that the speaker actually moves (ever so slightly) causing a loss in definition in the lows. My stands are filled with sand and are solid and quite heavy. When I have a look at some top mixing engineers, I notice a lot of them are not using pads at all.
What brought this about was when I was setting up both my LDY 48 and Air 6 monitors. I always felt the Air 6 was a little scooped in the low mids and light in the lowend. When I moved the Mopads from the Air 6 to the LYD 48, the sound improved noticeably on the Air 6 and the LYD 48 sounded a bit anemic with the Mopads.
I would think that you would want monitors as solid as possible. I know the foam decouples the speakers from the stands but maybe it also allows the speakers to move slightly causing a thinning of the sound? I will inevitably do whatever sounds best in the studio, whether with the pads or not. I just don't want to go with more pads if it is actually hurting the sound more than helping. My studio is very well treated with OC 703 panels at all the correct locations, so the room on it's own sounds very nice an balanced.
Ok, what's your thoughts on this.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2018 9:01:47 GMT -6
There are 2 major camps of vibration de-coupling
1. Isolation, problem most isolation products are not full band width.
The good small and versatile.
2 Mass, problem big and heavy by defenition. The good can be DIY’ed on the cheap.
I’m a mass guy go build a pair of simple DIY speaker stands, some large diameter PVC drain pipe cut to length flanges attached to plywood and caulk fill pipe with sand or lead shot.
Need to build a pair of 2 tube versions of these for the Quested H302’s.
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Post by mcirish on Jun 7, 2018 9:12:02 GMT -6
Hey Eric, My stands that I made for the Air 6 about 12 years ago are exactly that. I went with a manufactured stand this time around and have to say that the PVC stands I made are better. Should have gone that route this time around too. oh well.
Funny thing, I was looking up studio shots of CLA, Dave Pensado, Mark Endert, Andrew Scheps, Warren Huart and a few other top mixers. None of them are using foam isolation pads. Their monitors just sit on a shelf or stands. Maybe the whole idea was started by Auralex and other companies that can profit off the idea if they can get everyone to believe they need it.
I went with Mass and Isolation. I feel like mass might have been fine on its own and gave better results.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2018 9:45:33 GMT -6
Hey Eric, My stands that I made for the Air 6 about 12 years ago are exactly that. I went with a manufactured stand this time around and have to say that the PVC stands I made are better. Should have gone that route this time around too. oh well. Funny thing, I was looking up studio shots of CLA, Dave Pensado, Mark Endert, Andrew Scheps, Warren Huart and a few other top mixers. None of them are using foam isolation pads. Their monitors just sit on a shelf or stands. Maybe the whole idea was started by Auralex and other companies that can profit off the idea if they can get everyone to believe they need it. I went with Mass and Isolation. I feel like mass might have been fine on its own and gave better results. Build another pair man😁 I think some isolation solutions can help in some situations where monitors are mounted on a desk top, but the problem is finding the right isolation device for each situation, this gets expensive real fast. The only pre-made stands I like are Sound Anchors but first you have to experiment to find the right height before ordering a fixed height stand. One thing to remember mounting directly on a surface is a form of mass loading. |
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Post by mcirish on Jun 7, 2018 10:31:32 GMT -6
I may just go back and make another pair.
Since my stands have mass to them, I am going to try without the 2" thick Mopads and go with industrial neoprene rubber. That will provide a bit of isolation in addition to the mass of the stands. It's funny; I understand the science behind it but even at very low levels, the speakers sound noticeably better without the Mopads. I don't think my speakers are coupling to the floor through the stand in any large way. But even if it were, it sounds better without the Mopads. I just don't feel they hold the speakers solid and some low end definition is lost.
I've yet to find any major mixing engineers using them. You'd think if you did this for a living day in and day out, you'd make your mix environment the best it could be. Apparently, most mix engineers either like the sounds of the speaker sitting directly on the meter bridge or they don't know any better.... :-) I've seen Dave Pensado even use paint cans to hold his monitors off the desk. How many rules is that breaking? What brand of paint is it? Are the cans empty or filled with sand or acoustic foam? Does blue paint sound better than red?.... I digress...
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Post by mcirish on Jun 7, 2018 10:57:38 GMT -6
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2018 11:41:19 GMT -6
I don’t disagree with Ethan’s findings but Ethan for a test based guy as little understanding of sample theory and making statements based on 1 ! I don’t like this type of product nor do I recommend it as a rule, but in more than one instance it has solved a problem. The thing here is this type of product should not be pushed as it will work every time nor will it never be needed, if you hear a cabinet buzzing it might might help. This the problem with the internet in general, you have a bunch of guys with limited experience preaching their experience as gospel. Gearpimps Like Adam Brass and I ( ret.) have had multiple personal experiences and stories of even more stories from end users, even then we are not always right. Of course Ethan always is, well except for his use of Graphic EQ’s to solve room problems before he found there was good money in fabric and fiberglass 😁 |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2018 12:24:56 GMT -6
Interesting, indeed! The only problem is that in the past Ethan has proven himself to be a less than reliable performer of audio tests , not above manipulating data to "prove" his points. I'm not saying he's doing that here, but there are a few things that make me suspicious, such as his measurements for "cardboard box" isolators - because I've never in my life known a cardboard box that didn't show some audible resonance with a speaker sitting on top of it.
Also, although it's not exactly the same thing, in his AES book "Recording Studio Design" Phillip Newell goes to great lengths to describe how proper isolation is critical in the implementation of soffit mounted speakers. I would think that isolation would also be of importance in other types of speaker mounting to some degree.
That being said, in most cases I favor isolation via great mass over other types of isolation in most (but not all) cases, and do tend to believe that most commercial "isolation pads" and similar approaches are somewhat snake oily. I own ( but am not presently using) a set of Auralex Mopads and have found that their primary benefit is in the aiming of speakers that are not mounted in the plane of the ear. They may also have some benefit in reducing early reflections in monitors mounted on a table or desk by aiming them up, away from the surface.
EDIT: I question the efficiency of neoprene as an isolator, althoughh it might be of use in prerventing a speaker from "walking around" on a slick surface. The rubber product that is used for audio isolation is SORBOTHANE, which is purpose designed for the application. Even with Sorbothane it is important to select the isolators for the specific application, one size does not "fit all".
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Post by jeremygillespie on Jun 7, 2018 12:40:45 GMT -6
I’ve used the Primacoustic pads since I checked them out at an AES show years ago. The difference was so staggering I thought there was an eq somewhere between the speaker switcher and the speakers. I actually climbed behind the racks and traced the cables.
They are foam with a very heavy and thick steel plate over them that the speaker sits on. I don’t know how they work, and I honestly don’t care. Every speaker I’ve used them for sounds better sitting on the Primacoustic pad.
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2018 12:44:39 GMT -6
I’ve used the Primacoustic pads since I checked them out at an AES show years ago. The difference was so staggering I thought there was an eq somewhere between the speaker switcher and the speakers. I actually climbed behind the racks and traced the cables. They are foam with a very heavy and thick steel plate over them that the speaker sits on. I don’t know how they work, and I honestly don’t care. Every speaker I’ve used them for sounds better sitting on the Primacoustic pad. Combining mass and elastomer approaches. Very interesting! |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2018 13:00:00 GMT -6
I’ve used the Primacoustic pads since I checked them out at an AES show years ago. The difference was so staggering I thought there was an eq somewhere between the speaker switcher and the speakers. I actually climbed behind the racks and traced the cables. They are foam with a very heavy and thick steel plate over them that the speaker sits on. I don’t know how they work, and I honestly don’t care. Every speaker I’ve used them for sounds better sitting on the Primacoustic pad. Combining mass and elastomer approaches. Very interesting! Not that much mass the heaviest is 36lbs at 20x22in |
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Post by swurveman on Jun 7, 2018 14:02:14 GMT -6
Funny thing, I was looking up studio shots of CLA, Dave Pensado, Mark Endert, Andrew Scheps, Warren Huart and a few other top mixers. None of them are using foam isolation pads. Their monitors just sit on a shelf or stands. I was told by the acoustician who did my room that NS-10's need to be on a shelf or stand because with pads they lose the little bass response they have. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 7, 2018 19:20:50 GMT -6
Funny thing, I was looking up studio shots of CLA, Dave Pensado, Mark Endert, Andrew Scheps, Warren Huart and a few other top mixers. None of them are using foam isolation pads. Their monitors just sit on a shelf or stands. I was told by the acoustician who did my room that NS-10's need to be on a shelf or stand because with pads they lose the little bass response they have. I never have understood why people use those things. (NS-10s). |
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 7, 2018 20:32:00 GMT -6
I was told by the acoustician who did my room that NS-10's need to be on a shelf or stand because with pads they lose the little bass response they have. I never have understood why people use those things. (NS-10s). Because people started talking about them, they were cheap so they ended up on every meterbridge on the cover of mix so even more people bought them. |
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Post by stormymondays on Jun 8, 2018 0:12:11 GMT -6
Got the Primacoustics on top of solid wood stands filled with sand. I like them better than the Auralex. The flexibility of the foam is part of the reason for decoupling, they form a spring. You can’t use any old pad.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 8, 2018 3:34:06 GMT -6
Plaster of Paris filled Towersonic stands for my ATCs here (in Paris!)  The ATCs I have, have their own three "feet" which rest on foam pads on the main plate. |
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Post by Ward on Jun 10, 2018 11:02:32 GMT -6
There are a couple of benefits:
Less intermodular distortion
Less extended Nass response all over the room
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Post by bram on Jun 10, 2018 13:42:30 GMT -6
I went the DIY route with sand filled PVC pipe, metal spikes on the base, and Fun-Tak putty pearls under the speakers. Much cheaper option than the larger isolation products, and the fun-Tak pearls flatten to the point where you’re not adding noticeable extra height to your speakers.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2018 6:42:31 GMT -6
If your cheap like me and are using high mass stands try this fairly cheap trick: take some ratcheting tie down straps and strap your monitors tightly to the stands! Couple to the mass rather than isolate much better 9 times out of 10.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jun 11, 2018 8:44:27 GMT -6
I have found the isoacoustics products make a big difference with all the speaker systems I have tested them on. I will be adding their ISO-Pucks very soon. Speaker isolation is a very positive thing. I don't have time to do a DIY make-shift thing. I would rather purchase a good design from someone who has experience with decoupling on a larger scale.
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ericn
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Post by ericn on Jun 11, 2018 9:12:57 GMT -6
I have found the isoacoustics products make a big difference with all the speaker systems I have tested them on. I will be adding their ISO-Pucks very soon. Speaker isolation is a very positive thing. I don't have time to do a DIY make-shift thing. I would rather purchase a good design from someone who has experience with decoupling on a larger scale. And for many your absolutely right, the pucks might be one of the best solutions for many, the problem Adam is the guy walking into GC and hearing, just like power conditioning “ this will solve all your problems.” That said mass is probably still the best solution, but yeah it’s heavy big, ugly and in I’ll bet 80-90% of the time impractical, but still it’s probably the best solution but I’ll admit because of the above reasons at the moment I’m not practicing what preach 😎 |
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Post by adamjbrass on Jun 11, 2018 9:27:49 GMT -6
I have found the isoacoustics products make a big difference with all the speaker systems I have tested them on. I will be adding their ISO-Pucks very soon. Speaker isolation is a very positive thing. I don't have time to do a DIY make-shift thing. I would rather purchase a good design from someone who has experience with decoupling on a larger scale. And for many your absolutely right, the pucks might be one of the best solutions for many, the problem Adam is the guy walking into GC and hearing, just like power conditioning “ this will solve all your problems.” That said mass is probably still the best solution, but yeah it’s heavy big, ugly and in I’ll bet 80-90% of the time impractical, but still it’s probably the best solution but I’ll admit because of the above reasons at the moment I’m not practicing what preach 😎 Its really easy to test speaker isolation. So, I am not sure its best to let the GC weenies blow smoke up your ass. I read over the Ethan Myth Buster page and honestly, its a total prank from a guy who just wants to disprove that marketed products do not make a difference. Having heard and experienced the difference that Isolation products can make..I strongly urge you to test it for yourselves. That is the only way to see if a tool like this makes a difference in your studio. Same can be said for a power product. If you want to know my opinion of "foam" isolation products. I think its 99% junk. All its useful for is not scratching the bottom of my demo speakers. That is the 1% of usefulness it actually has. I find foam products more useful to stack demo rack units on top of each other. So, I won't put foam under my speakers. Because its useless. back at Mercenary -- We used to use Neoprene pads. Those helped...But the Pucks do a better job. But I won't try this with Hockey pucks because they design those to slide on ice. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 11, 2018 14:54:27 GMT -6
And for many your absolutely right, the pucks might be one of the best solutions for many, the problem Adam is the guy walking into GC and hearing, just like power conditioning “ this will solve all your problems.” That said mass is probably still the best solution, but yeah it’s heavy big, ugly and in I’ll bet 80-90% of the time impractical, but still it’s probably the best solution but I’ll admit because of the above reasons at the moment I’m not practicing what preach 😎 Its really easy to test speaker isolation. So, I am not sure its best to let the GC weenies blow smoke up your ass. I read over the Ethan Myth Buster page and honestly, its a total prank from a guy who just wants to disprove that marketed products do not make a difference. Having heard and experienced the difference that Isolation products can make..I strongly urge you to test it for yourselves. That is the only way to see if a tool like this makes a difference in your studio. Same can be said for a power product. If you want to know my opinion of "foam" isolation products. I think its 99% junk. All its useful for is not scratching the bottom of my demo speakers. That is the 1% of usefulness it actually has. I find foam products more useful to stack demo rack units on top of each other. So, I won't put foam under my speakers. Because its useless. back at Mercenary -- We used to use Neoprene pads. Those helped...But the Pucks do a better job. But I won't try this with Hockey pucks because they design those to slide on ice. If Ethan told me the sky was blue I'd have to go out and check. And doublecheck to make certain he hadn't erected a big blue tent.
Some of what he says is OK, but you have to really be careful to separate out the bias and BS. I generally prefer to use better sources.
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Post by adamjbrass on Jun 11, 2018 15:01:31 GMT -6
Its really easy to test speaker isolation. So, I am not sure its best to let the GC weenies blow smoke up your ass. I read over the Ethan Myth Buster page and honestly, its a total prank from a guy who just wants to disprove that marketed products do not make a difference. Having heard and experienced the difference that Isolation products can make..I strongly urge you to test it for yourselves. That is the only way to see if a tool like this makes a difference in your studio. Same can be said for a power product. If you want to know my opinion of "foam" isolation products. I think its 99% junk. All its useful for is not scratching the bottom of my demo speakers. That is the 1% of usefulness it actually has. I find foam products more useful to stack demo rack units on top of each other. So, I won't put foam under my speakers. Because its useless. back at Mercenary -- We used to use Neoprene pads. Those helped...But the Pucks do a better job. But I won't try this with Hockey pucks because they design those to slide on ice. If Ethan told me the sky was blue I'd have to go out and check. And doublecheck to make certain he hadn't erected a big blue tent.
Some of what he says is OK, but you have to really be careful to separate out the bias and BS. I generally prefer to use better sources.
Wondering why you would even waste time listening to someone stating common knowledge as their own made up facts. |
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Post by johneppstein on Jun 11, 2018 15:16:25 GMT -6
If Ethan told me the sky was blue I'd have to go out and check. And doublecheck to make certain he hadn't erected a big blue tent.
Some of what he says is OK, but you have to really be careful to separate out the bias and BS. I generally prefer to use better sources.
Wondering why you would even waste time listening to someone stating common knowledge as their own made up facts. Two very different "reasons". if you can call them that - #1, entertainment value, #2, sometimes he can be quite intrusive. And another - I have this "thing" about people intentionally spreading bad information. |
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The ATCs I have, have their own three "feet" which rest on foam pads on the main plate.
